The issue with atheism

a reply to: Annee

I'm with you on the energy euphoria thing but I don't buy any claims that a child with no taught knowledge of any god claims has independently come home from school saying "An entity calling itself God touched me today so now I believe in this god".
Do you realise how insane that sounds? And again even if true the god is a prick for picking and choosing which innocent children it wishes to offer the 'experience' to.

EDIT
Read your post again and apologies I realised I misinterpreted you, I'll leave my comments up though and direct them to anyone who might think children are not atheists until adults brainwash them. It is absolutely ridiculous.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I just did.

logical reasoning should include some reasons. Not just your assertions.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Peeple

Stating your personal opinion isn't definitive proof of existence.

Hold up a sec?
When did this turn into wanting definitive proof of the existence of God??
The issue here was wanting to know WHY people believe in God.

Move the goal posts much? Very scientific!

as a matter of fact, the initial contention was that atheism is presumptuous and conceited. followed by discussion.

is it safe to assume that you clicked the thread because you were interested in sharing why you believe in god? perhaps.

is it safe to assume that definitive proof of god is no longer relevant based on your specific interest? probably not.

is it safe to assume that definitive proof of any kind would make even a little difference in the debate?

...lets just say its okay to dream.

I'm completely unsure of my beliefs. Ever changing and difficult to comprehend myself, let alone put into words. So sharing, no

I don't think any kind proof would make any difference at all.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Ruiner1978

You know the saying right? You can lead a horse to the water you can't make it drink.

I would add "you don't want to learn you have to burn", but I'm krass. Just drop it.

Platitudes?

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Peeple

Stating your personal opinion isn't definitive proof of existence.

Hold up a sec?
When did this turn into wanting definitive proof of the existence of God??
The issue here was wanting to know WHY people believe in God.

Move the goal posts much? Very scientific!

as a matter of fact, the initial contention was that atheism is presumptuous and conceited. followed by discussion.

is it safe to assume that you clicked the thread because you were interested in sharing why you believe in god? perhaps.

is it safe to assume that definitive proof of god is no longer relevant based on your specific interest? probably not.

is it safe to assume that definitive proof of any kind would make even a little difference in the debate?

...lets just say its okay to dream.

I'm completely unsure of my beliefs. Ever changing and difficult to comprehend myself, let alone put into words. So sharing, no

I don't think any kind proof would make any difference at all.

I think evidence would and should make all the difference in the world. I can certainly show why evidence should make a difference and i can convince you that evidence can sway your opinion.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Consciousness is not a force in the universe, it only happens in brains. There is no example of a consciousness that is not connected to a brain.

Faith in the cult of Scientism will only disappoint you in the end.

It is just as dangerous as any other cult out there if not more so.

Never forget that 'science' can be as abused for the sake of religious or anti-religious preconceptions as equally as the Bible can be, on both sides of a debate. Combating the cult of "Scientism."

George Rodonaia used to believe the same thing BTW...

After spending three days in a morgue freezer he realized that believing in atheism was no longer an option.

Like many other NDE's, his experience was corroborated by the diagnosis of a child's green stick fracture.

While other MD's were unable to make that diagnosis using their brains, Dr. Rodonaia made the diagnosis while outside of his body and without his brain.

"Dr. Rodonaia was killed by the KGB, pronounced dead, taken to the morgue for three days and returned to life during his own autopsy. Dr. Rodonaia was a psychiatric researcher who worked for the KGB and later became a dissident. He was a scientist trained in historical materialism and did not believe in God."

"George Rodonaia underwent one of the most extended cases of a near-death experience ever recorded. Pronounced dead immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in the morgue. He did not "return to life" until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy procedure. Prior to his NDE he worked as a neuropathologist. He was also an avowed atheist. LINK

The story is unique also because George's body was frozen. The current scientific paradigm requires the assumption that human consciousness is neurologic and that this neurologic process requires a highly efficient chemical reaction. A frozen state cannot maintain such a chemical reaction.

Mysteries of Consciousness: In defense of the mysteries - Google Books

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Annee

I'm with you on the energy euphoria thing but I don't buy any claims that a child with no taught knowledge of any god claims has independently come home from school saying "An entity calling itself God touched me today so now I believe in this god".
Do you realise how insane that sounds? And again even if true the god is a prick for picking and choosing which innocent children it wishes to offer the 'experience' to.

EDIT
Read your post again and apologies I realised I misinterpreted you, I'll leave my comments up though and direct them to anyone who might think children are not atheists until adults brainwash them. It is absolutely ridiculous.

Cool

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
Lol at everyone still slugging it out here, it is impossible to verify the existence of any deities so many people (including myself) do not believe the claims. How any theist can argue with that rational position I have no idea.
I say believe what you like, and brainwash your kids if you like, but don't pass faith of as anything remotely close to being verified.
I was honest with my child "There is no verifiable evidence to support any claims of gods, dragons, ghosts, monsters or other woo" He doesn't believe any of the claims either. Children are all atheist until someone teaches them to believe old stories.

Or if they experience something.

Lol, do you know any kids who came home from kindergarden saying "God spoke to me today mom, I am now a believer"?
I'll call god a prick then because he didn't give any loving experience to my son who was unfortunate enough to be born to an atheist dad.
I say bollocks, and every child that believes in any god only does so because human adults have taught them to.
All children are atheists until they get brainwashed, you know it, everyone knows it, but it doesn't fit your lame 'experience' narrative, it's okay, I understand why the truth troubles you, it indicates that 'god' belief is a purely human social construction.

No I don't know any. But I'm not going to let that dictate to me about the possibility.

Yes children are brainwashed and taught it. I wasn't substituting one for the other, and I meant people in general not specifically children.

The "lame experience narrative" is a thing.
People do have experiences that they percieve to be God. No?

a reply to: Murgatroid

there is a chemical called dimethyltryptamine that can induce such visions in even the most discerning mind. if you havent already looked it up, you should. it explains many things about near death experiences and it is produced naturally within the human body.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Consciousness is not a force in the universe, it only happens in brains. There is no example of a consciousness that is not connected to a brain.

Faith in the cult of Scientism will only disappoint you in the end.

It is just as dangerous as any other cult out there if not more so.

Never forget that 'science' can be as abused for the sake of religious or anti-religious preconceptions as equally as the Bible can be, on both sides of a debate. Combating the cult of "Scientism."

George Rodonaia used to believe the same thing BTW...

After spending three days in a morgue freezer he realized that believing in atheism was no longer an option.

Like many other NDE's, his experience was corroborated by the diagnosis of a child's green stick fracture.

While other MD's were unable to make that diagnosis using their brains, Dr. Rodonaia made the diagnosis while outside of his body and without his brain.

"Dr. Rodonaia was killed by the KGB, pronounced dead, taken to the morgue for three days and returned to life during his own autopsy. Dr. Rodonaia was a psychiatric researcher who worked for the KGB and later became a dissident. He was a scientist trained in historical materialism and did not believe in God."

"George Rodonaia underwent one of the most extended cases of a near-death experience ever recorded. Pronounced dead immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in the morgue. He did not "return to life" until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy procedure. Prior to his NDE he worked as a neuropathologist. He was also an avowed atheist. LINK

The story is unique also because George's body was frozen. The current scientific paradigm requires the assumption that human consciousness is neurologic and that this neurologic process requires a highly efficient chemical reaction. A frozen state cannot maintain such a chemical reaction.

Mysteries of Consciousness: In defense of the mysteries - Google Books

Yes. People who are scientists believe lots of wierd things. That is why we use the scientific method to discern beliefs from actualities.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Hey Woodcarver, thank you very much for your thoughts and input. It certainly has expanded the questions I now have.

I wonder, what if religion corrupts the search for spirit/soul. What happens if the spirit/soul has nothing to do with god but is US. It is US inside this shell. It sure seems like people want to condemn this view outside of religion, but it is not their domain. They have just corrupted it.

I feel we would be a lot farther along this path without religion trying to take the soul and use it for monetary and power gains.

I think the soul is both inside of us and external in the ability of a person to 'feel' other beings in this reality, maybe even pets!

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
Lol at everyone still slugging it out here, it is impossible to verify the existence of any deities so many people (including myself) do not believe the claims. How any theist can argue with that rational position I have no idea.
I say believe what you like, and brainwash your kids if you like, but don't pass faith of as anything remotely close to being verified.
I was honest with my child "There is no verifiable evidence to support any claims of gods, dragons, ghosts, monsters or other woo" He doesn't believe any of the claims either. Children are all atheist until someone teaches them to believe old stories.

Or if they experience something.

if they experience something and just jump to conclusions, you mean.

If that's how you choose to view it then yes.
Perception of what is true.
That's why people believe, is it not?

originally posted by: Ruiner1978
People do have experiences that they percieve to be God. No?

As Annee said "Energy Euphoria" or caught up in a crowd. I prayed for years after my brainwashing as a child, zero, nothing, nada from any gods wishing to say hello in some 'experience' so I think it's a load of bull# obviously.
I can't comment on any 'experience' you may or may not have had, that's your gig, but you must imagine why I think it's a load of bollocks?
"Can I have an experience God???!!!" lol I'd be open to new opinions if I had an 'experience' but I haven't and gave up believing after many years.
The Christian god is crap at recruiting people, I'd be all over the world if I was a god, A list star on all TV networks and my name trending the # out of social media.
Nah, load of bull# I reckon, but any new verifiable evidence I'm open to changing my mind.

EDIT
As an aside, when my son was born we decided not to have him baptised because it was not our place to impose a religion on him, even though his mother believes in the Christian trinity. We both agreed that if there is a Christian god and it punishes an innocent child for the crimes of its parents then he/she/it can go # itself for being immoral.
I'd actually love there to be a god so I could call it a murderous barbaric monster to its face.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: Woodcarver

Hey Woodcarver, thank you very much for your thoughts and input. It certainly has expanded the questions I now have.

I wonder, what if religion corrupts the search for spirit/soul. What happens if the spirit/soul has nothing to do with god but is US. It is US inside this shell. It sure seems like people want to condemn this view outside of religion, but it is not their domain. They have just corrupted it.

I feel we would be a lot farther along this path without religion trying to take the soul and use it for monetary and power gains.

I think the soul is both inside of us and external in the ability of a person to 'feel' other beings in this reality, maybe even pets!

I think that religious people should educate themselves in scientific fields and study these things properly instead of just asserting these things as fact. The truth is that there is no reason to believe that souls/spirits, are anything other than our personalities. There is no good reason, (as of yet) to believe that our personalities exist beyond our brains or after our deaths.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Consciousness is not a force in the universe, it only happens in brains. There is no example of a consciousness that is not connected to a brain.

Faith in the cult of Scientism will only disappoint you in the end.

It is just as dangerous as any other cult out there if not more so.

Never forget that 'science' can be as abused for the sake of religious or anti-religious preconceptions as equally as the Bible can be, on both sides of a debate. Combating the cult of "Scientism."

George Rodonaia used to believe the same thing BTW...

After spending three days in a morgue freezer he realized that believing in atheism was no longer an option.

Like many other NDE's, his experience was corroborated by the diagnosis of a child's green stick fracture.

While other MD's were unable to make that diagnosis using their brains, Dr. Rodonaia made the diagnosis while outside of his body and without his brain.

"Dr. Rodonaia was killed by the KGB, pronounced dead, taken to the morgue for three days and returned to life during his own autopsy. Dr. Rodonaia was a psychiatric researcher who worked for the KGB and later became a dissident. He was a scientist trained in historical materialism and did not believe in God."

"George Rodonaia underwent one of the most extended cases of a near-death experience ever recorded. Pronounced dead immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in the morgue. He did not "return to life" until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy procedure. Prior to his NDE he worked as a neuropathologist. He was also an avowed atheist. LINK

The story is unique also because George's body was frozen. The current scientific paradigm requires the assumption that human consciousness is neurologic and that this neurologic process requires a highly efficient chemical reaction. A frozen state cannot maintain such a chemical reaction.

Mysteries of Consciousness: In defense of the mysteries - Google Books

You definitely should not simply believe things because a scientist says it. This is a great example of why claims should be thoroughly vetted.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
Lol at everyone still slugging it out here, it is impossible to verify the existence of any deities so many people (including myself) do not believe the claims. How any theist can argue with that rational position I have no idea.
I say believe what you like, and brainwash your kids if you like, but don't pass faith of as anything remotely close to being verified.
I was honest with my child "There is no verifiable evidence to support any claims of gods, dragons, ghosts, monsters or other woo" He doesn't believe any of the claims either. Children are all atheist until someone teaches them to believe old stories.

Or if they experience something.

Lol, do you know any kids who came home from kindergarden saying "God spoke to me today mom, I am now a believer"?
I'll call god a prick then because he didn't give any loving experience to my son who was unfortunate enough to be born to an atheist dad.
I say bollocks, and every child that believes in any god only does so because human adults have taught them to.
All children are atheists until they get brainwashed, you know it, everyone knows it, but it doesn't fit your lame 'experience' narrative, it's okay, I understand why the truth troubles you, it indicates that 'god' belief is a purely human social construction.

YES!

However, some adults experience an "Energy Euphoria" because they get involved in religion and misinterpret it as a "God experience".

You can get the same "Energy Euphoria" at a sports event. Where everyone is focusing their energy toward the same purpose.

Now that would be a beautiful weekend thread Annee.

'how you doing'

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Woodcarver

Aww you sound butthurt. Did I crash your dogma?

I'm here to help, if you can stay rational for a second: what didn't you understand?

I don't think he understands he's in the Metaphysics forum...

Woodcarver! Exposing lack of reasoning everywhere!
Coming soon to a forum near you.

i’m fine with you guys ganging up on me instead of addressing the issues here. It just shows everybody else your inability to put your beliefs on the table to be scrutinized, which will lead many to realise that there is no foundation beneath your beliefs.

I'm back!

My beliefs?
My beliefs are completely irrelevant to the issue here. The issue is that you claim that you want to know why people believe in God, yes?

Now, may I draw your attention to two questions I posed to you a few posts up that you willfully chose to ignore?

There is a lot going on here, apologies if I missed your post. Please direct me to the specific questions that you are referring to.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Peeple

Stating your personal opinion isn't definitive proof of existence.

Hold up a sec?
When did this turn into wanting definitive proof of the existence of God??
The issue here was wanting to know WHY people believe in God.

Move the goal posts much? Very scientific!

as a matter of fact, the initial contention was that atheism is presumptuous and conceited. followed by discussion.

is it safe to assume that you clicked the thread because you were interested in sharing why you believe in god? perhaps.

is it safe to assume that definitive proof of god is no longer relevant based on your specific interest? probably not.

is it safe to assume that definitive proof of any kind would make even a little difference in the debate?

...lets just say its okay to dream.

I'm completely unsure of my beliefs. Ever changing and difficult to comprehend myself, let alone put into words. So sharing, no

I don't think any kind proof would make any difference at all.

I think evidence would and should make all the difference in the world. I can certainly show why evidence should make a difference and i can convince you that evidence can sway your opinion.

I meant specifically proof of God.
I think most would still deny due to the real reason most don't want to believe.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: Woodcarver

Hey Woodcarver, thank you very much for your thoughts and input. It certainly has expanded the questions I now have.

I wonder, what if religion corrupts the search for spirit/soul. What happens if the spirit/soul has nothing to do with god but is US. It is US inside this shell. It sure seems like people want to condemn this view outside of religion, but it is not their domain. They have just corrupted it.

I feel we would be a lot farther along this path without religion trying to take the soul and use it for monetary and power gains.

I think the soul is both inside of us and external in the ability of a person to 'feel' other beings in this reality, maybe even pets!

I think that religious people should educate themselves in scientific fields and study these things properly instead of just asserting these things as fact. The truth is that there is no reason to believe that souls/spirits, are anything other than our personalities. There is no good reason, (as of yet) to believe that our personalities exist beyond our brains or after our deaths.

What if this is beyond our current scientific tools to measure?

Haven't you ever 'felt' another person? Strong emotions like hate or lust?

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Peeple

Stating your personal opinion isn't definitive proof of existence.

Hold up a sec?
When did this turn into wanting definitive proof of the existence of God??
The issue here was wanting to know WHY people believe in God.

Move the goal posts much? Very scientific!

as a matter of fact, the initial contention was that atheism is presumptuous and conceited. followed by discussion.

is it safe to assume that you clicked the thread because you were interested in sharing why you believe in god? perhaps.

is it safe to assume that definitive proof of god is no longer relevant based on your specific interest? probably not.

is it safe to assume that definitive proof of any kind would make even a little difference in the debate?

...lets just say its okay to dream.

I'm completely unsure of my beliefs. Ever changing and difficult to comprehend myself, let alone put into words. So sharing, no

I don't think any kind proof would make any difference at all.

I think evidence would and should make all the difference in the world. I can certainly show why evidence should make a difference and i can convince you that evidence can sway your opinion.

I meant specifically proof of God.
I think most would still deny due to the real reason most don't want to believe.

Oh please please tell me the real reason why I don't want to believe .... please ....