NEWS: Former "Crips" Founder and Nobel Prize Nominee Cleared For Death Penalty

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has cleared the way for Stanley "Tookie" Williams to receive the death penalty. The court refused to grant Williams another hearing to argue that prosecutors had dismissed all black jurors in his trial. Williams who founded the notorious street gang "Crips" was found guilty of killing 4 people in 1981. However since his incarceration, he has renounced violence, and been nominated several times for the Nobel Peace Prize and Nobel Literature award.



Let him have his shot at the Supreme Court and then execute him. Nobel nominee or not, lets not forget the 4 people he brutally murdered. Despite a blatant attempt by left leaning media to portray him in an angelic light on TV recently the fact remains that he killed four people. Perhaps he should use the time he has left to let people know that now he has to pay the ultimate price instead of race baiting and political grandstanding.


[edit on 8-2-2005 by Banshee]

All the celebrities coming forward for this man's life reminds me of Jack Henry Abbot who was released from prison based largely on the recommedation of Norman Mailer who had a lengthy correspondence with the murderer while he was working on a book about Gary Gilmore.

www.sacbee.com...

www.nctimes.com...

www.finalcall.com...

www.sfgate.com.../c/a/2005/11/20/BAGJRFRFS81.DTL

www.sohh.com...

buffaloreport.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

I agree 100%, Fred.

It really pisses me off when the ultra lefties waste so much energy defending someone who has caused so many damn problems and caused so much death and violence, simply because this person is black, and was "fighting the man" or some other liberal justification for pointless violence.

Let us not forget that more than the blood of 4 people is on his hands. He founded the Crips, a gang that has been responsible for the bloodshed of more black youths than all the bad cops in the country combined. He started a gang, a gang that to this day still plagues poor communities in a pointless and neverending bloody rivalry wit the Bloods, and that has inspired many more offshoot gangs that continue their frenzy of violence, claiming the lives of so many inner city kids long before their prime.

Its the same crap the lefties were whinning about Mumia Abu-Jamal. Simply because he was a black guy who shot a cop, it was obviously "in self defense". If he was a white guy, you wpuld have no one comming to his aid.

This is why the left is losing so much ground and becomming more and more reviled in this country. It is their support of socially degenrate villans and their annoying habit of bring race into every stinking issue that has made the average moderate American shudder away, and has given the whacko religous extreme right so much power.

I dont care if the Catholic Church wants to cannonize him. Williams has helped ruined the live of more black people than the KKK could have ever dreamed.

It really pisses me off when the ultra lefties waste so much energy defending someone who has caused so many damn problems and caused so much death and violence, simply because this person is black, and was "fighting the man" or some other liberal justification for pointless violence.

Political sniping much? I'm not in any way affiliated with the left, and I support this man. The venom is unwarranted, and it's not even topical. You're just dragging baggage into this thread.

Why do I support him you ask?

1.) He admits he committed many crimes, but still protests his innocence regarding the convictions that earned him the death penalty. The evidence is not there, the police work was at the very least negligent, if not racist, and the jury was manipulated for the benefit of the state's case.

2.) Because he knows he did wrong, he has never expressed any desire to go free. He simply wants to remain alive so he can continue to serve the community by writing and educating people on the dangers of gangs, and the power of positive thinking.

3.) He didn't start the gang to hurt people, he started the gang to protect himself and his few friends from around the neighborhood. The motives for the formation of the gang are completely understandable, and once it got started it had a will of its own. Regardless of what you think, he thought he was doing a good thing. You focus on how many lives he supposedly stole, but have you ever stopped to think about how many lives he saved by forming the gang?

4.) The man writes critically aclaimed children's books educating young people about street life and the dangers of gang involvement. He does more for the betterment of our society than 90% of people living in this country, including you I'd wager. Your disgust and anger are not shared by the man himself, who has learned some very important lessons over the course of his life. He is no longer a rash, impetuous, violent youth, he has transformed himself into a well-read, soft-spoken scholar. He no longer belongs in prison, but it's his wish to remain there, so I support him in that.

Let us not forget that more than the blood of 4 people is on his hands. He founded the Crips, a gang that has been responsible for the bloodshed of more black youths than all the bad cops in the country combined.

That's absolute nonsense. You have no figures to back up your wild claims, do you? Bad cops are a much bigger problem than gangs. We don't fund the gangs, we don't arm them with tax dollars, we don't protect them from the law, and we don't trust them with our lives.

Your bias is showing, tug down yer slip a bit.

He started a gang, a gang that to this day still plagues poor communities in a pointless and neverending bloody rivalry wit the Bloods, and that has inspired many more offshoot gangs that continue their frenzy of violence, claiming the lives of so many inner city kids long before their prime.

Once again, you don't appear to have any idea what you're talking about. The bloods are now a community service organization, and their leaders spend all their time coordinating the construction of basketball courts, community centers, and playgrounds. The frenzy of violence you mention was here long before tookie, and long before you, and long before America.

I'm sure you think you know what's going on with this situation, but let me assure you, that's not the case. Your perception, I think, is based on fantasy and television, and not in fact. I suggest you do some research on the issue before speaking about it again.

Its the same crap the lefties were whinning about Mumia Abu-Jamal. Simply because he was a black guy who shot a cop, it was obviously "in self defense". If he was a white guy, you wpuld have no one comming to his aid.

This conversation has NOTHING to do with politics, left and right, and your little boxes. Put them away please, they don't serve the discussion.

I dont care if the Catholic Church wants to cannonize him. Williams has helped ruined the live of more black people than the KKK could have ever dreamed.

HUGE, STINKING PILE OF EXCREMENT.

Tookie wasn't lynching people, hanging them from trees, dragging them behind jeeps, setting them on fire, raping their daughters and wives, burning their houses and churches.

Unbelievable. You're actually saying that a former gang leader who writes children's books has done more damage to the black community than the KKK.

When presented with a pile of dung, I almost always set it on fire. That's just what I've done here, nothing more, nothing less.

FredT

Let him have his shot at the Supreme Court and then execute him. Nobel nominee or not, lets not forget the 4 people he brutally murdered.

That's the problem Fred, he says he didn't kill those people and I believe him. It's really besides the point anyway, because he doesn't want to go free. He wants to pay for his crimes with however many years he has left, and it makes perfectly good sense to allow him that.

Despite a blatant attempt by left leaning media to portray him in an angelic light on TV recently the fact remains that he killed four people.

He's portrayed in that light because that's how he acts now. His actions speak for themselves, then and now. Sure he's a criminal, a REFORMED criminal, a writer, an educator, an activist, a scholar, a nobel prize nominee. And y'all want to kill him. That's just sick.

The good ole USA will fry anybody...The mans renounced violence and his past and has been nominated fro a nobel prize for efforts several times, but still, there going to barbecue him !!
When are we going to learn that draconian deterent methods of dont work.

The prisons are full of people who have a) found religion and now want to use the rest of their natural days spreading the word for the benefit of the other prisoners, and b) didn't do the crime. They will look you in the eye and solemnly swear that they might have been born bad, but they are being framed on this crime.

That's why we have trials by jury. If his lawyer allowed all blacks to be removed from the jury, that's their fault, Williams' and the lawyer. He should have complained about it then.

What surprises me about this case is that the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals actually came up with this ruling. They have the reputation of being the most liberal U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in the land, and have overturned many decisions by lower courts that seemed rock solid.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Sure he's a criminal, a REFORMED criminal, a writer, an educator, an activist, a scholar, a nobel prize nominee. And y'all want to kill him. That's just sick.

You have to love the irony. The whole point of the prison system is to REFORM individuals, to make them see the moral wrongdoing of their actions. It fails at this most of the time. In this rare case, it has sucseeded, and now that the prison system has acutally done some good to someone, they want to kill him. Its like recycling all your old trash just to set it on fire. It makes no sense.

Good post Wyrde, you beat me to quite a few of the points you made

Ishes
Technically the point of our prison system, according to administrators and policy makers, is not to reform, but punishment and prevention.

This country has gone through a number of changes in the prison system, and for a time the commonly shared vision was one of reform. No more. The official position of the prison system is not reform, and even if it was, the privatization of the infrastructure and management means that morality takes a backseat to profit.

Also, I don't think the prison system can get the credit for Tookie's transformation. It seems to me that he's simply grown as a person, and come to realize just how foolish he was. But, you're absolutely right on with your recycling analogy.

If we want to change criminals into citizens, we shouldn't put to death those criminals who manage to change their stripes. It just doesn't make sense.

That's the thing though, it doesn't have to make sense. It just has to appease the bloodlust of white taxpayers. Them's the breaks I guess, when living in Amerikkka.

If Tookie was an industrialist responsible for a million birth defects, and hundreds of deaths, due to rampant criminal negligence and blatant disregard for public safety, he'd get a fine (if that!). Because he's a black man, and more importantly not a wealthy man, his crime is blown out of proportion and his punishment is severe.

Kill a man, the state will put you to death. Cause a thousand cancers through willfull negligence, and you get keys to a dozen cities and invitations to the grove. If a poor black man knocks down an old lady and steals her purse, he could spend years behind bars for the crime. When a rich white man defrauds tens of thousands of investors, causing enormous suffering and grief in the process, he's fined (or not, if he happens to golf with the judge) and promptly removed from the spotlight to spend his ill-gotten gains in peace.

Poor black criminals are dumped into an AIDS infested rape dungeon while wealthy white ones sit in the sun and sip umbrella drinks. Maybe I'm just not rich enough to see the logic in this system of 'justice.'

There is no justice in the justice system, and until cops start breaking down boardroom doors and holding CEOs at gunpoint, there will be no race/class equality in this country. Without equality, there will be no peace.

You wanna prevent murders? Start treating people better. Simple.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

Once again, you don't appear to have any idea what you're talking about. The bloods are now a community service organization, and their leaders spend all their time coordinating the construction of basketball courts, community centers, and playgrounds. The frenzy of violence you mention was here long before tookie, and long before you, and long before America.

Are you serious? I see and deal with bloods/crips almost everyday and had a good laugh at that. These gangs are a disease with clear intentions of spreading and promoting violence. Google around a little for "Bloods" and see if you can shake that naiveness off a little.

Here, I'll make it easy:

The three gangs consistently mentioned by local police agencies as their most serious problem were the Bloods, Crips and Latin Kings. Those three gangs also have the largest estimated aggregate membership(New Jersey): Bloods (4,000), Latin Kings (2,345) and Crips (2,100).

www.njsp.org...

Now I know, this is a press release from those corrupt cops but maybe you're right. Maybe those gang members were arrested for trespassing and building playgrounds in peoples yards.


[edit on 11/27/2005 by DiabolusFireDragon]

i do agree with wyrdeone. forget the statistics and the pearly white points of view hedid do something that warrants a punishment. our choices for punishment in this case are 1) imprison this man for the remainder of his life 2) execute this man.

with the first option we retain a voice of reason. a man who sees the wrong he has done and wants to do his part to deter others from making the same mistakes. i have not had a chance to read tookie's works but it is quite obvious that he is gifted, considering his nobel prize nominations.


now with the second option all that has been accomplished is yet another dead person. another family left to mourn and depending on who you ask i guess it could be another innocent person executed.

like i said the rest of the arguement is trivial this man has changed he is not asking to be free he only wants to live. he wants to live so he can continue to carry out his mission and see it pay dividends.

now with the second option all that has been accomplished is yet another dead person. another family left to mourn and depending on who you ask i guess it could be another innocent person executed.

Exactly! That's it!

America in reality is not an objective thing, it's a series of subjective perceptions. If 10 million people in this country, or whatever the figure is, believe the man is innocent, or at least believe he should not be killed, that's reality just the same. An innocent man will be killed, and that has consequences.

Forgetting all the ethical arguments, there's no practical reason to kill the man, and a few good, sensible reasons to let him live. Killing him will almost certainly create major unrest in cities around the country, and end up bringing more misery. That's just what happens when you do bad things, bad things happen to you, it can't be avoided.

The death penalty's most vehement supporters use, as justification, the logic that killing is wrong, and deplorable. We hate this behavior so much as a society, we're willing to engage in it?



This isn't logical, and no matter how the supporters try they can't get past this stumbling block.

So then it becomes about sympathy, and emotions. "Think of the victims!" they say. "We are, damnit!" is the natural response from people against the process. We ARE thinking of the victims, ALL of them - those from the past, present, and future.

If I punch out my neighbor, he doesn't have any legal right to hit me after the fact as an act of revenge. If he kills my dog, I can't kill his and be legally justified. It can't work that way across the board because it would dissolve very rapidly into anarchy. The way things are now, this retarded standard is being applied sparingly, and as a result our society is crumbling slowly instead of all at once. Crumbling just the same.

There is absolutely no danger posed to the community by leaving him alive and in prison. There is absolutely no tangible benefit to the community achieved by killing him.

There is also no deterrent value to the death penalty. In countries where drug smuggling carries the death penalty, people still engage in the behavior. The murder rate has not, to my knowledge, gone up during periods of death penalty moratoriums.

People make mistakes, and on rare occasions learn the lesson made available by the experience. Punishing that behavior is a really bad way to give positive reinforcement. If you want to encourage people to act in a certain way, killing them afterwards is certain to deliver the wrong message. We WANT criminals to reform, right?

I am a huge believer in personal responsibility, and I think society also should be 'personally' responsbile for every one of its segments. If we are to be a healthy organism, we can't neglect this bit or that, it will lead to atrophy, then decay, and eventually death for the entire system.

And this is NOT a race issue, it's a class issue. I currently live in a place every bit as poor as random inner city X (I know because I've lived in several of those places too) but it's something like 85% white. Poverty, lack of oppurtunity, availability of expensive addictive drugs, a society where one needs cash to survive (you can't pick berries, farm turnips, and trap squirrels in Manhattan), it's a really, really obvious scenario unfolding isn't it?

If you give people what they need, and teach them from childhood to want good things, crime is reduced to practically zero. There will always be exceptions, but if we act right as a society, and as parents, as teachers to one another, and as logical, thinking adults: POOF, the problems go away for the most part.

Maybe it wouldn't be such a financial burden to incarcerate anti-social individuals if the prison system wasn't geared to produce profits for private enterprises using public tax subsidies.

Diabolus

Are you serious? I see and deal with bloods/crips almost everyday and had a good laugh at that.

I'm glad you got a laugh. There are lots of gangs, sure, but the gangs in question are long disbanded. Any contemporary of Tookie is unlikely to be found on a street corner selling nicks or shooting up a pool hall.

Google "Tookie's Protocol for Peace" for information about the treaty between the two gangs.

Violent street gangs have co-opted names, symbols, mythology, whatever you wanna call it. The bloods were re-created in a sort of immaculate conception in NY prisons, after having died out back in the 70's (if I remember). But the man in question is certainly not responsible for the actions of those criminals, or the kid today wearing a blue rag on his head. They're responsible for their own actions.

The original bloods and crips long ago called it quits, they turned their efforts to community service. OG Mack is in prison for like half a lifetime, and anybody out on the street wearing red is not automatically involved in a heirarchical structure with him, or anyone else for that matter, at the top. Similarly, Tookie isn't ordering hits from his cell, they're not his gang, his gang is now comprised of political activists.

Incidentally, the Bloods were founded back in the 60's as a response to the Crips murdering the members of other smaller gangs. Last I checked, the original crips, pimp-cane carrying strongarm men, were still in retirement.

But, all that aside, you're right. There are still bloods and crips. But understand that the association is in name only.

These gangs are a disease with clear intentions of spreading and promoting violence.

Like weapons manufacturers for example? Their intention is not to spread and promote violence, their agenda is simple, and you share it too - they want to survive, and be as close to the top of the big pile as possible.

Now I know, this is a press release from those corrupt cops but maybe you're right.

How do you know those particular cops are corrupt, or are you being sarcastic? It's so hard to tell without actually seeing your sneer...

[edit on 27-11-2005 by WyrdeOne]

The situation here is the same as the situation when a man stands in front of the parole board: do you believe him or not?

Some think that he has transformed himself, and that he is innocent by his own words.

Why the big emphasis on transformation if you are innocent? Seems to me that he should be pushing the innocence angle instead of the book-writing.

He thought that his race and his reputation would get him off the hook. I can see where it has already affected members of this forum. If Williams were white, would you be so quick to believe him?

I'm sorry, but at the risk of sounding callous, I don't believe him. Call it my natural cynicism or the result of the dozens of scams I have seen. I would have not expected him to say he was guilty. I would have expected him to say that he had been reformed.

What is to stop the next multiple-murderer from offering the same appeal? What makes Williams so special that we should believe him? Again, I say, he had his day in court.

He has two shots left, SCOTUS and the governor. I don't give him much chance with SCOTUS, but the governor may not be looking at the (unscientific) polls, which favor execution.


[edit on 27-11-2005 by jsobecky]

Like it our not, we do have capital punishment for these types of crimes, he was found guilty and sentenced by a jury, and the courts (including the infamous 9th Circuit that seems to try to find any excuse to release criminals) haven't found anything wrong with his trial, so he should be executed.

Of course the governor could pardon him, but I see no reason to here, especially given the heinous nature of his crimes.

My Letter To Incarcerated Youth, No. 1


I've been on San Quentin's death row for more than 21 years. I hope that this brief message will provoke thoughts of change among you.

Across this nation, countless young men and women, like you, are vegetating in juvenile halls and in youth authorities. More and more prisons are being constructed to accommodate your generation when you grow to adulthood. The question is, can you become motivated enough to defy the expectations that many people have of you?

For those of you who are fortunate enough to regain your freedom, prepare an agenda to survive outside the walls of incarceration. Learn about computer technology, politics and the sciences.

On the other hand, if some of you are facing a lot of time, I suggest that you strive to educate and discipline your mind. If you have access to a library, read every relevant book that you can get your hands on. Educate yourselves about history, world religions, math, English, spirituality and your culture.

It's time to flip the script. You or I can complain 24x7 about the problems of poverty, drugs, violence, racism and other injustices, but unless we choose to initiate a personal change, we will remain puppets of unjust conditions. Unless we change, we will be incapable of changing the circumstances around us.

In conclusion, there are two ways to view your incarceration: either your present situation will convince you to straighten up your life or it will be the beginning of a wasteful future behind bars. Or worse - you'll end up on death row.

**i googled stanley "tookie" williams and found a site with this letter and another regarding modern slavery. in the other letter he states that many black youth are degrading themselves to the level of what he calls "modern slavery". he says many of todays black youth dont educate themselves, commit senseless crimes and altogether do things that make them fit the stereotypes some black people are working so hard to change.**

i am not an expert and i can not tell you the amount of remorse this man has. the one thing that i can tell you is that this man wants to move this generation in a different direction.

I am a huge believer in personal responsibility, and I think society also should be 'personally' responsbile for every one of its segments.

That's a contradiction, and as such is a fundamentally flawed viewpoint, and it's the basis for many, if not most, of the overarching flaws in leftist ideology. We are all responsible for ourselves, and nobody else is responsible for us. Williams made a conscious decision to pursue a life of violence, and he and he alone is responsible for that decision. The fact that he now claims to repent that decision does not in any way alter the fact that it was made and that it had specific negative consequences. The results of his choice are his responsibility and his alone.

It's easy to say that you're a "huge believer in personal responsibility," but it's much harder to actually BE one. It's so much easier to blame all of one's failures on someone else...

WyrdeOne x infinity, U are SO on point!

Of course due to false information people deem executing him 'necessary' and 'right'.
I think it's BS personally, as do many.

Let's be real , they don't want the black youth to have any "help" or positive influences.

wow fancy that, killing a nobel prize nominee ... gotta hand it to America's legal system

I am truly disgusted.


[edit on 27-11-2005 by ImJaded]

jsobecky

nothing involving race has affected me in any way. if tookie were white i would still have the same take on this. i find it extremely unfortunate that you have to make this a race issue. the only reason that i even mentioned race in any of my posts is because the effect tookie may have on a certain group of people. that group of people is black youth. as a white person i hate that history has to have an affect on today. what white people did in the past caused many black people today to be racist. i haven't a racist bone in my body but a black persons first impression of me has my pale skin factored into it. at what point if ever will we all just say hey, "your skin is darker than mine but that is the only difference between us". it shouldnt matter at all

No mercy...
No wisdom...
No goodness...

If you support murder in any fashion, you better pray you are right. The bloodthirst of some of our brethren, be it for "justice" or not, disturbs me. Not evolved thinking, just primitive reasoning.

I assume a lot of people forget that the Crips stopped being a black-only-gang, a hell of a long time ago. They have many supporters as does this man, from many walks of life. If you focus on one sub-culture than you are making it about them, like it or not.

Just a question; "How many of you know why the Crips were founded?"

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

Political sniping much? I'm not in any way affiliated with the left, and I support this man. The venom is unwarranted, and it's not even topical. You're just dragging baggage into this thread.

Why do I support him you ask?

1.) He admits he committed many crimes, but still protests his innocence regarding the convictions that earned him the death penalty. The evidence is not there, the police work was at the very least negligent, if not racist, and the jury was manipulated for the benefit of the state's case.

2.) Because he knows he did wrong, he has never expressed any desire to go free. He simply wants to remain alive so he can continue to serve the community by writing and educating people on the dangers of gangs, and the power of positive thinking.

3.) He didn't start the gang to hurt people, he started the gang to protect himself and his few friends from around the neighborhood. The motives for the formation of the gang are completely understandable, and once it got started it had a will of its own. Regardless of what you think, he thought he was doing a good thing. You focus on how many lives he supposedly stole, but have you ever stopped to think about how many lives he saved by forming the gang?

4.) The man writes critically aclaimed children's books educating young people about street life and the dangers of gang involvement. He does more for the betterment of our society than 90% of people living in this country, including you I'd wager. Your disgust and anger are not shared by the man himself, who has learned some very important lessons over the course of his life. He is no longer a rash, impetuous, violent youth, he has transformed himself into a well-read, soft-spoken scholar. He no longer belongs in prison, but it's his wish to remain there, so I support him in that.

Your whole post gave me a good laugh. Thank you very much.

There were simply too much nonsense for me to quote it all. But this one makes me really laugh.

The Crips and Bloods "community service Organizations"? Oh, Jeeezzzz....my sides are still splitting.

Its quite obvious you have never lived in the hood. Or seen the violence and problems created by gangs.

I dont have a bias, like you do. I call em for what they are. In the REAL world, the gang warfare between Crips and Bloods has killed FAR many more young black men and other innocent victims than any lynching crusade from the KKK. Thousands of young black kids have died in the pointless gang warfare committed by rival gangs. The Crips and Bloods and other gang scum have created a culture of murder and hatred amongst the blacks. Since the vast majority of young black males who are murder victims are murdered by other young black men, I could care less what this "reformed" criminal does behind bars.

I dont see these gangs going after and killing bad cops. NOOOOOOOO. I dont see them doing anything to really fight the system. What I have seen them do is tear black communities apart and destroy lives.

But thank you for your blather. You have proved my point why the loony left has lost so much respect in this country. Your support of anti-social behavior and murderers is why the religous right is gaining so much influence.

And Im not right wing or Republican. In fact, I cant stand them. And I blame left wing nuts like you for their rise to power. If the left had not gone so far out of the real world and alienated so many, the right would not have gained the power they have, and we might actually have been spared another 4 years of Bush. But the incompetance of the left has fueled the fires and handed victory to the right.

And crap like this is a prime example. I could care less what prizes he has been nominated for and recieved. So? Hitler was Once Time Magazine's Man of the Year.