NEWS: Former "Crips" Founder and Nobel Prize Nominee Cleared For Death Penalty

You know, after posting the above information it occurred to me.

It does not matter how the group was formed, or how or why any group or gang is formed. It is what they do or stand for that matters.

The Iraqi Republican Guard (RG) was the core of the Iraqi military. It was originally formed to be Saddam Hussein's bodyguard but was expanded into a large military force. Look what this group turned into. KILLERS

In the early days of Nazi Germany, the party was nothing more than that, a political party. Look what this group turned into. MASS KILLERS

- One Man Short ®

This issue seems really simple to me.

This guy killed people. On purpose.

The punishment for killing people (on purpose) is death.

If someone said they were going to kill me (deservedly) for something I did, and there was no way out of it, I'd try to be real damn nice too.


In perspective, if you don't pay your taxes for years and years, the IRS doesn't care what a great person you are. You are going to jail per the punishment for not paying taxes.

Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by DiabolusFireDragon
The crips were formed to combat the bloods.

Actually, that's wrong.
Where did you get that idea from?

Oops!!! Got it mixed up. Supposed to be the other way around. Me looky stoopid.

That's what I get for quick posting.

dussrob
here is something to consider i know these figures are out of date but it gives us some perspective.
a report by the nation parole board November 2002
"Offenders Serving A Life Sentence For Murder"

of the 3721 convicted murderers during this time 2360 of them were incarcerated
over a third of them were out on parole (1361)
PAROLE for heavens sake

and after 25 years all of them are eligible for parole. tookie is not asking to be released on parole he simply wants to be able to continue to influence youth in a positive way through his writing.

i do not claim to know about tookies character but it seems as though this man is reformed and harbors plenty of remorse and resentment for the things he did in his life. why kill another person in this case ecspecially when all that will accomplish is to put an end to something that may have a positive effect on a troubled generation

Originally posted by cantfoolme
My Letter To Incarcerated Youth, No. 1
I've been on San Quentin's death row for more than 21 years.

Iraq has a law that if convicted and sentenced to death, that
death penalty must be carried out within 30 days.

21 years and still alive isn't much of a 'death sentence', is it?

Important question - what do the victims families have to say?
If they wanted this guy put to death, and then all these celebrities
jumped in to stop it .... what are THEY saying? Do they agree or
disagree?

Gotta' listen to the victims as well as the law.


BTW - I'm not impressed with his Nobel Prize nomination. Arafat
got the Nobel Prize. He was a murderer and a pedophile.




[edit on 11/28/2005 by FlyersFan]

our wonderful justice system is what allows a person to drag a death sentence out for years. the whole thing is how many people who commit similar crimes are either still alive in prison or as i pointed out before out on parole. this man can do no harm to anyone while incarcerated. he can only do good for society and he does so through his writing.

So, where did the Crips come from?

Well, to identify that you really need to look at the whole of the Western Coast of the United State’s during the 1960’s.

I do not wish to drag this out, however I will give a quick over-view.

Back in the early part of the 1960’s, the West Coast of the United State’s [and all over] had many gangs begin to pop-up, these included people like the United Slaves, Black Panthers and many more. In 1969, the Rainbow Coalition was founded where many of these gangs who were fighting to clean up there areas joined. The Crips were one of them. Of course, if you look into why this fell apart you will find the U.S. Government had its hands in it.

When they fell apart and with the Bloods group being founded, a level of gang-war-fare began to erupt and it left us where we are at today. [With the two of them at last, signing a peace treaty of sorts.]

Is he honestly guilty?

Who really knows. I tend to think that he isn’t for these crimes, the guy has done a lot of bad actions in his life, however he in the last 12years has began to come forward and say they were wrong. He in fact, could be a much better model left alive to speak out against Gang-violence and injustice. Who is going to speak to Black Youth better? This man or a Police officer? He has lived that life and to come out saying it is wrong, is something that might help the United State’s and its people.

Originally posted by Odium
So, where did the Crips come from?

Dude, for real? How many times do you have to ask?

Please take the time to read page 2 of this post.

I gave a 1/2 page answer to the question you have been asking since this whole thread started.

I'm sorry... are we supposed to find merit in groups of people who kill someone due to the color of the hat they are wearing?

Yeah, here in NYC we hear about these "community" groups all the time. How they run onto subways and slash random people to prove that they are worthy of being members of said groups. How they'll stand outside video arcades in Times Square and knife someone because he's wearing a red hat or a blue one. Yes yes, upstanding community members.

If poor Mr. Williams (or any other member of such "gangs") can't handle being put to death, maybe they should think about that before they MURDER other people. I don't see Snoop crying over the families of the people Williams murdered. Oh... yeah that's not a cool cause like Tookie and Mumia.

Spare me. Someone who appoints himself as God and takes another man's life away in cold blood deserves whatever he gets.

Headlines are made for the plight of the poor murderer, and as usual the family of the people who the guy killed are ignored.

Do any of you who are singing the praises of Williams and his gang even care about those people?

Williams, 51, was sentenced to death in 1981 for fatally shooting Albert Owens, a Whittier convenience store worker.

He also was convicted of killing two Los Angeles motel owners and their daughter during a robbery.

Here is a letter from one of the victims stepmother

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building

Sacramento, Ca.95814

November 6,2005

Dear Governor Schwarzenegger,

My name is Lora Owens. I am the stepmother of Albert Lewis Owens. My husband, Albert's father, has died so I also speak for him since we discussed this letter frequently over the years. I am writing you concerning clemency for Stanley "Tookie" Williams who murdered Albert in 1979 by shooting him twice in the back. Within seconds, though Albert pleaded for his life, Williams chose to become the judge, jury and executioner of Albert, then laughed as he lay dying. In 1981, Williams was tried, convicted and sentenced to death for the murders he committed in cold blood. Now the many, many years of appeals have also been denied and the facts remain steadfast and the verdict remains firm.


Now that the appeals have been denied, Williams has decided on a new tactic. A female friend has entered his life who happens to be a journalist who wants to write children's books against gangs. Since the defense of brain damage in his appeals did not gain him anything, Williams decided to become an articulate author denouncing gang activity. He doesn't assist the authorities in stopping gang activity by "debriefing" however, but concentrates on teaching primary school age children the "walk and talk" of gang life. This he claims will deter them from joining a gang.


The Nobel Peace Prize nominations, from the first to the last, have been made by activists who see an opportunity to further their personal cause.The first was quoted to have made the nomination to "raise the awareness of the death penalty to a higher degree". Totally nothing to do with Williams and whether he deserved the recognition but for a political agenda.


This has been true of each nomination since.


They have quoted that it doesn't matter what he has done in the past but what he is doing now.


I contend that he is not doing anything now to warrant any type of award and it definitely does matter what he has done in the past. It would matter to anyone whose child is dying in a pool of blood because Williams had the loaded gun and chose to shoot- not in self defense-but shot innocent, unarmed victims simply bcause he could.


We must care what happens to each other whether it affects us personally or not lest we become as callous, insensitive and cold hearted as Williams.


The citizens award from the President of the United States was bought for a few dollars but because he received it...people think the President is behind his clemency and think his "works" are worthwhile as the Williams legal counsel asserts.


The movie "Redemption" is an atrosity. To be redeemed one must accept responsibility for the deeds and not claim to be redeemed to get out of the punishment set forth. Williams has declared his own style of redemption for his own gain.


It's sad that many people have seen the movie and think Williams has changed. That it was mistakes in his youth that put him on death row. Not the murders he was convicted of but the mistakes he eludes to in the movie. I've been berated because the Owens family is shown to throw blood on Barbara Becnel and people are led to believe that has actually happened.

They have forgotten that we are the victims not the criminal.
The years since 1979 have been very difficult for the Owens family. Albert's daughters did not have a good childhood because their father was not there to love and protect them from harm. The health of Albert's father steadily declined and he couldn't get any peace or closure over Albert's murder because justice had not been completed. We did think with Williams being confined to death row would do some good but not when he has his own web page, media directors and movies coming out. It continually kept the pain and anguish fresh and each time something new would appear in the press...it was as though the years had not passed and the pain was the same gutwrenching as in the beginning.I sincerely implore you not to give clemency to Stanley "Tookie" Williams. He is not a model citizen for the blacks to pattern after. He is a murderer and has caused the Owens family anguish for the last 26 years.


His just punishment, his execution, could provide us some closure and peace. Finally, Albert could rest knowing that justice had finally been completed.


With Kind Regards,

Lora Owens

Just thought maybe her voice needed to be heard in all of this.

- One Man Short ®






[edit on 28-11-2005 by One Man Short of Manhood]

Thank you for sharing that with us.

My thoughts are with her, and the families of the other victims. Not with Mr. Williams, his fellow "crips" or a group of people with too much money and too little to do.

We must care what happens to each other whether it affects us personally or not lest we become as callous, insensitive and cold hearted as Williams......





His just punishment, his execution, could provide us some closure and peace. Finally, Albert could rest knowing that justice had finally been completed.


With Kind Regards,

Lora Owens

(speaking of callous)
I think this sums it up well. The Death of Mr. Williams, at this point, would do no good for anyone. No matter his motives, the words that he writes are read by a number of black youth. Now that he's known, a good message is getting out. His death won't change the lives of the families of the victims. The rest of his life could change the lives of thousands, hundreds, dozens, or maybe only one, for the better.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind

Rasobasi420, please don't selectivly hi-light portions of Ms. Williams letter to try and further your agenda.

If that is what she intended to say, she would have.

If you need to edit some poor ladies letter abour her murdered step-son, then you don't have very strong footing to be standing on to begin with, right?

- One Man Short ®

That letter said exactly what I stated, just a little more drawn out. That letter was obviously an attempt to tug at the heartstrings of the Governer, to kill a man. Using emotional manipulation to have a man killed is as callous and unrelenting as one can get.

If he were to die right now, how would that actually change her life? I mean beyond something that she herself can already do. If she were to come to terms with the death of her father on her own, I think it would mean a whole lot more to her than through the death of another.



[edit on 28-11-2005 by Rasobasi420]

Since we have established that you do indeed oppose the death penalty in all cases, and that you do understand the need for consistent application of the law, then do you not see that pointing at one man and saying, in effect, "This man, because of his repentance and because of his contributions to society, does not deserve to be executed," does not serve, and actually conflicts with, your (and my) values?

The law, for good or ill, exists as it does. So long as it exists as it does, it MUST be applied fairly and equally, or at least as much so as is possible considering the vagaries and failures of human nature. If there was some sort of exception being made in order to execute him, then opposing that execution would probably be valid, but to attempt to make an exception to avoid that execution is to attempt to subvert the law.

The law itself must be changed, but until it is changed, it must be followed. If it is not to be followed-- if the rule of law is to have no weight-- then changing it will accomplish nothing.

I believe that it's exceedingly dangerous to grant the state the power to kill citizens, but I also believe that it's that much more dangerous to grant them the power to pick and choose, despite the rule of law, which citizens they will or will not kill, regardless of whether I or you or anyone else might or might not agree with their choices.

Originally posted by cantfoolmetookie is not asking to be released on parole he simply wants to be able to continue to influence youth in a positive way through his writing.

i do not claim to know about tookies character but it seems as though this man is reformed and harbors plenty of remorse and resentment for the things he did in his life. why kill another person in this case ecspecially when all that will accomplish is to put an end to something that may have a positive effect on a troubled generation

So-- do you favor immediately overturning all death sentences, or only the ones for murderers who claim to have repented and have nominally authored children's books?

You know-- the thing that most strikes me about all of this is that if I was a prisoner sitting on death row and, say, reading a Bible and living a life of peace and quiet contemplation, I'd be wondering if maybe I should've written children's books instead...

I think there's an important distinction here.

Some people oppose the death penalty in general. I respect that. Personally I wish such things would never have been necessary in the first place.

But the issue here is a specific person and the concept of crime and punishment.

I, personally, do not feel that a guy trying to reinvent himself by doing community activity erases what he did.

I am willing to play devil's advocate here and give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he really just feels absolutely awful about what he did, and maybe he wishes he could go back and erase everything. But see... he can't. He made the conscious decision to take people's lives away. When you make a decision like that you have to realize the consequences. The consequences in the state of california was a sentence of death.

So the thing here is... if the guy wanted to live a full and productive life he should not have founded a murderous drug pushing gang, and should not have snuffed out others' lives.

I just can not bring myself to feel pity for someone who killed others. Others who did absolutely nothing wrong.

Originally posted by Djarums
I am willing to play devil's advocate here and give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he really just feels absolutely awful about what he did, and maybe he wishes he could go back and erase everything. But see... he can't. He made the conscious decision to take people's lives away. When you make a decision like that you have to realize the consequences. The consequences in the state of california was a sentence of death.

So the thing here is... if the guy wanted to live a full and productive life he should not have founded a murderous drug pushing gang, and should not have snuffed out others' lives.

I just can not bring myself to feel pity for someone who killed others. Others who did absolutely nothing wrong.

The consequences in the state of california is death, Rhode Island is Life, and in the military, a medal. I'll go back to an old point. If the point of the justice system is to reform criminals, then maybe, for once, it has done it's job. And maybe Williams, whether he really believes what he's preaching or not, can get a good message out to people for the rest of his life.

anyone who has a problem with this mane living has to look no further than our justice system to place blame. for 21 years this person has been in prison. at some point in those 21 years tookie decided he would be part of the solution instead of the problem. he probably didnt expect to still be alive now. but the failure of the justice system to carry out his punishment in a timely manner leaves us here arguing this. i am a proponent of the death penalty in some cases. there is a grey area here.
in this case (as many have already stated) it does no one any good to kill this man. however tookie can do good through not only his writing but as a positive influence to others facing life in prison or the death penalty. so if tookie ends up being executed his final thought may be "i guess i should have just joined a prison gang and participated in all the riots"

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building

Sacramento, Ca.95814

November 6,2005

Dear Governor Schwarzenegger,

My name is Lora Owens. I am the stepmother of Albert Lewis Owens. My husband, Albert's father, has died so I also speak for him since we discussed this letter frequently over the years. I am writing you concerning clemency for Stanley "Tookie" Williams who murdered Albert in 1979 by shooting him twice in the back. Within seconds, though Albert pleaded for his life, Williams chose to become the judge, jury and executioner of Albert, then laughed as he lay dying. In 1981, Williams was tried, convicted and sentenced to death for the murders he committed in cold blood. Now the many, many years of appeals have also been denied and the facts remain steadfast and the verdict remains firm.


Now that the appeals have been denied, Williams has decided on a new tactic. A female friend has entered his life who happens to be a journalist who wants to write children's books against gangs. Since the defense of brain damage in his appeals did not gain him anything, Williams decided to become an articulate author denouncing gang activity. He doesn't assist the authorities in stopping gang activity by "debriefing" however, but concentrates on teaching primary school age children the "walk and talk" of gang life. This he claims will deter them from joining a gang.


The Nobel Peace Prize nominations, from the first to the last, have been made by activists who see an opportunity to further their personal cause.The first was quoted to have made the nomination to "raise the awareness of the death penalty to a higher degree". Totally nothing to do with Williams and whether he deserved the recognition but for a political agenda.


This has been true of each nomination since.


They have quoted that it doesn't matter what he has done in the past but what he is doing now.


I contend that he is not doing anything now to warrant any type of award and it definitely does matter what he has done in the past. It would matter to anyone whose child is dying in a pool of blood because Williams had the loaded gun and chose to shoot- not in self defense-but shot innocent, unarmed victims simply bcause he could.


We must care what happens to each other whether it affects us personally or not lest we become as callous, insensitive and cold hearted as Williams.


The citizens award from the President of the United States was bought for a few dollars but because he received it...people think the President is behind his clemency and think his "works" are worthwhile as the Williams legal counsel asserts.


The movie "Redemption" is an atrosity. To be redeemed one must accept responsibility for the deeds and not claim to be redeemed to get out of the punishment set forth. Williams has declared his own style of redemption for his own gain.


It's sad that many people have seen the movie and think Williams has changed. That it was mistakes in his youth that put him on death row. Not the murders he was convicted of but the mistakes he eludes to in the movie. I've been berated because the Owens family is shown to throw blood on Barbara Becnel and people are led to believe that has actually happened.

They have forgotten that we are the victims not the criminal.
The years since 1979 have been very difficult for the Owens family. Albert's daughters did not have a good childhood because their father was not there to love and protect them from harm. The health of Albert's father steadily declined and he couldn't get any peace or closure over Albert's murder because justice had not been completed. We did think with Williams being confined to death row would do some good but not when he has his own web page, media directors and movies coming out. It continually kept the pain and anguish fresh and each time something new would appear in the press...it was as though the years had not passed and the pain was the same gutwrenching as in the beginning.I sincerely implore you not to give clemency to Stanley "Tookie" Williams. He is not a model citizen for the blacks to pattern after. He is a murderer and has caused the Owens family anguish for the last 26 years.


His just punishment, his execution, could provide us some closure and peace. Finally, Albert could rest knowing that justice had finally been completed.


With Kind Regards,

Lora Owens

This letter from the Ms. Owens tells us a lot about her psyche. Carl Jung describes the "shadow", a subconcious aspect of one's personality that is diametrically opposed to the concious ego. This opposition to the ego brings a natural desire not to acknowledge this aspect of themselves. This opposition also has a tendancy to project one's own shadow on others. This letter, without Ms. Owen's knowledge, is showing us her shadow. She wants to use the legal system to unleash her own hatred and anger.

We should pity her. Yes, for the death of her father, but also for her inability to cope with it without the manifested blood lust.