A B757 hit the Pentagon, reported by GOFER06

a reply to: pteridine

My comment is opinion, I don't have the time at the moment to provide links. I simply provided questions that have not been answered, or they have been answered, but not to my satisfaction. My opinons were mostly formulated by the films, "Zeitgeist" and "Loose Change". There are people out there vastly smarter than I and those of you that are, forgive me if my punctuation is off or my quotes are paraphrased or I don't throw a link or five hundred in. My intent was to use my opinion to stimulate a need to work outside the box on the anomalies of September 11, 2001, including the ones where one of the most highly surveilled places on earth provided the public with a blur and a fireball. When that object hit, it immediately became a crime scene and it was immediately corrupted by the very people wo knew better, in my opinion.

originally posted by: LaBTop


Could you, pale5218, look into my BOBCAT14, BOBCAT17 and WORD31 (E-4B, Doomsday plane) remarks in this 2009 post of mine in there :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I remember vaguely providing the information on those threads. I have been going through many of the older threads about this topic and find numerous ATC inaccuracies (my perspective) a lot of the post if compared to the data on the flight paths, radar data, voice tapes etc.. It wasn't just the strip marking, it is from a lot of the posters that didn't understand what they were analyzing. I've been working night shift this past week so not much time when I get home so as I get through more of this, if you have specifics to look up give me the details.

From 2009 post

BOBCAT14 disappears from the screen at UTC 12:37:19 after he got redirected to Washington Central (listen to the mp3), and ordered to change frequency and/or transponder setting to 284.7 . He probably changed his transponder setting and that's why he disappeared from the DCA TRACON radar screen. BOBCAT17 however, was all the remaining time visible on the DCA TRACON screen, even after he was ordered to change frequency or transponder setting to the same 284.7 setting, much later. I suppose Washington Central in the mp3 is a military air traffic controller.

The BOBCTs 14/17 and the WORD31 were given 284.7 as an operating frequency because working with military, they use different equipment so the radios and navigational systems had to be different the civilian aircraft. The controllers that they are switched to in Washington Center is the same controllers working the civil traffic, they just are listening and talking on two frequencies at the same time. So it's not really a "military controller".

Both fighters seemed to be reasonably close to flight 77, and with afterburners on, could perhaps have intercepted it. Why did it seem that the flight controller was not aware of the immediate danger of flight 77, flying low and without transponder signal on?

I did see the information on the WORD31 from ADW which was the B742 but the BOBCTs were overflights that I didn't see the type aircraft so I'n not sure they were fighters. Could be though, call signs are indicative of possible fighters, also they are a flight formation, just not standard formation.

We know of the story of Cheney, getting informed of the plane being 20 miles out, 10 miles out, 5 miles out, and then he told an aid that ""the orders still stood"", and ""why should they have changed""; he asked that aid. So why were the FAA controllers not immediately informed, when the Secret Service was aware minutes in advance, that flight 77 was on course to Washington?

This is a point I made earlier in the post. Mineta's testimony is not accurate when you compare it to what is in the data here.

1) AAL77 disappeared from radar in western WV, in Indianapolis Center. The track wasn't picked up again by FAA until flying just south of IAD when the controllers observed a fast moving primary target. This is approximately 20-25 miles west of DCA. They did convey the information to the DCA controllers and the White House but this is when the AAL77 is crossing the boundary into DCA airspace, 15-20 miles at best.

2) UAL93 never made it closer than 100 miles to DC before it crashed.

So the the conclusion is that it wasn't either of these airplanes because AAL77 and UAL93 were not observed by controllers at a 50 mile or 30 mile distance for this info to be passed to anyone. If we consider Mineta's testimony, he is either mistaken about the facts or this information was coming in from a different source than the FAA.

The tapes on NEADS also point to these military controllers not aware of the primary target (AAL77) until about 10 miles west of DCA just before the flight starts the right 360. So again, where is Mineta and/or Cheney getting this information?

And SWORD31 (E-4B, Doomsday plane) was also very near to flight 77, at the same moment in time.

When WORD31 was airborne off the end of the runway, AAL77 primary target was at about the 45 miles from DCA. I don't know the capabilities of this E-4B so could this theoretically be the source if it occurred as Mineta stated?

originally posted by: SisyphusG
a reply to: pteridine

My comment is opinion, I don't have the time at the moment to provide links. I simply provided questions that have not been answered, or they have been answered, but not to my satisfaction. My opinons were mostly formulated by the films, "Zeitgeist" and "Loose Change". There are people out there vastly smarter than I and those of you that are, forgive me if my punctuation is off or my quotes are paraphrased or I don't throw a link or five hundred in. My intent was to use my opinion to stimulate a need to work outside the box on the anomalies of September 11, 2001, including the ones where one of the most highly surveilled places on earth provided the public with a blur and a fireball. When that object hit, it immediately became a crime scene and it was immediately corrupted by the very people wo knew better, in my opinion.

"Zeitgeist" and "Loose Change" were searching for money from an audience and, as such, stretched and misrepresented events. Rather than get distracted by trivia [what C130 was where at what time] get to the point.

In your opinion, were bodies of passengers found in the Pentagon in the remains of an airliner? Yes or No.

If they were, how did they get there? If they weren't, where are the passengers?

a reply to: pale5218

The E-4B is a flying command post. It's basically a flying communications relay. They have a couple hundred handsets going to various radios, plus the capability to use ELF/VLF systems to talk to missile silos and subs if they're in the right location.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: pale5218

The E-4B is a flying command post. It's basically a flying communications relay. They have a couple hundred handsets going to various radios, plus the capability to use ELF/VLF systems to talk to missile silos and subs if they're in the right location.

Thanks, I did have the sense this aircraft has the communication equipment for that role but it doesn't seem to be fitted with a radar appendage like the AWACS so that doesn't support the hypothesis of updating position reports unless it is a relay function.

I could be wrong about thIs, does it have that capability of surveillance?

What types were the BOBCTs ? I didn't see any info yet on them other than seeing them as overflights.

a reply to: pale5218

No, it only has the standard radar that most aircraft are equipped with.

Bobcat 14 and 17 were a pair of T-2 Buckeye trainers from what I've found. The Buckeye was a Navy carrier trainer.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Were they up on 911, an E-4?

a reply to: Salander

Three of them. At least two of the thee launched after the attack started. I don't remember what time the third launched.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Salander

Three of them. At least two of the thee launched after the attack started. I don't remember what time the third launched.

So WORD31 and VEN77 are the two launched after the start and both were from ADWs. VENUS22 was up and doing air work but this was a Gulfstream GLF3. Looks like it was inbound to ADW and went east/southeast for the work. I haven't found the tape to see what his request was.

a reply to: pale5218

Back in the 90s they started using C-20 (Gulfstream III and IV) aircraft instead of E-4Bs to travel with the president to some locations. The E-4B would land at an airport near where the VC-25s were, but not the same one. The C-20 was able to operate out of airports the E-4 can't, so opened up more options, but didn't have the dedicated equipment that the E-4 has.

Going by the VENUS callsign they may have been planning to work with the E-4s, as a dispersed command chain. They may have had the "president" on the C-20, passing orders to the E-4s,simulating the most likely scenario that would happen in a war.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I dig the factual tidbits you bring to the subject. It's all the little bits and pieces like those that clear the picture up, and it's pretty interesting to boot. Thanks for your contributions.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I wonder if they were flying that day as part of Vigilant Guardian or Tripod?

a reply to: Salander

Neither. They were part of Global Guardian. It was an Command and Control exercise, involving members of the government and the Battle Staff, simulating a nuclear strike. It happens at the same time as Vigilant Guardian, but it's a separate exercise, for Space Command and NORAD.

a reply to: Zaphod58

One level above VG, it sounds like.

originally posted by: LaBTop

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yes WORD31 was westbound. VEN77 might have been planning an East Coast exercise but when he departed, it was not to join the exercise. He had a purpose ! He wouldn't even tell the Andrews Controllers.

After the impact of AA 77, VENUS77 was asked to fly its predetermined holding pattern SE of IAD, while WORD31 did the same NE of IAD.

VENUS22 was present in the air from the start of that radar animation, any news on that one.?

About Hani Hanjour : think "lookalikes and switched passports".
Everybody tries to neglect interviews with the father of the 9/11 hijackers their ringleader in Cairo, Egypt, who insisted that his son phoned him in the days AFTER the day of 9/11.

When VEN77 departed, I don't think they went to a predetermined holding pattern. They departed VFR in a hurry and departed to the north/northwest before making the wide right turn out. They were on company frequency trying to figure out where to go. Their initial holding was about 60 miles south of DC.

Finally got to find out what VENUS22 was doing. It originally had a flight plan ADW to LWB Lewisburg WV. The flight departed ADW 1318Z with the same flight path as the GOFER06 passing just south of DCA airport. The flight diverted back to ADW just as the flight was southwest of DCA.

I didn't hear the reason, I can only speculate that this would be the time the news of the WTC attacks were making the rounds in through the channels. The controllers were talking about the attacks to other pilots landing DCA. It's possible someone in command made a decision to cancel the flight to LWB after the news.

The air work that was being observed on the radar replay was south and then southeast of ADW and this was to burn off fuel. The aircraft was too heavy to land so they did some holding to burn off some of the fuel which is very normal for a flight that has departed and needs to go back to departure airport.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Salander

Three of them. At least two of the thee launched after the attack started. I don't remember what time the third launched.

Zaphod58, that third one was VENUS77 :

09:44:41 (Tape 7982 B2A, Arrival Radar) Venus 77, heavy, set to go,talking to Washington ATC reported to Base Ops as 09:45 off Flight Strip 0945

That you can find in my post about the Miles Kara files.

Miles Kara is a VERY interesting man, with lots of very important additional links inside the links I now again provided, and in my eyes a shining example of a honest US Administrations civil servant, he was a career intelligence officer, military and civilian, and staff member of the 9/11 Commission, a man who really cares about this part of the second amendment : ".... , external and internal enemies alike" :

I really would like to have an answer on my question one page back, regarding this event that Miles Kara reported on, in my link to his Andrews AFB log files notes :

09:31:40 (Tape 7982CIA,Ground Control) Gofer 06 requests temporary hold to enhance INS system

That's 7 minutes before AA 77 slammed into the west wall.
Can you, pale5218, find out on the radar read-out, if GOPHER06 halted on the tarmac to do this, or if he performed that task in the air, while flying a holding pattern. I think on the tarmac of the start of the runway, it can however also be done in the air shortly after departure, a.f.a.I.k..

REFERENCES :

1. Title : 84 RADES radar data (3 pages):
www.abovetopsecret.com...
The last three posts on page 3 :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Note on this thread's last post : member posted only this single post, never posted again up to this day. OS-damage containment.? We, the longtime 9/11 researchers here, know very well that during war games exercises by the military, artificial targets were and can be inserted on radar screens from ATC screens. Thus, is it impossible to falsify radar logs.? Of course not.
My question is : Is it possible to check those logs AFTERWARDS for artificially inserted targets.
If not, then of course these 84RADES reports can contain totally or partly false data.
On 9/11, a much used phrase by ATC controllers was : " Is this real world or exercise.? "
Thus at least they could not check if a dot on their screens was inserted or real.

2. Title : Craig Ranke vs Adam Larson (Caustic Logic) debate (6 pages) :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

3. Search ATS with these words :
" LaBTop John Farmer site moved to " and you find in one of those the words :
Blue Collar Republican, which is now John Farmer's website :
bluecollarrepublican.wordpress.com...
His 9/11 Documents and Resources pages :
bluecollarrepublican.wordpress.com...
His complete file collection is available as a single torrent download :
911datasets.org...
His huge collection of other files are also available for download via torrent :
911datasets.org...

Erik Larson maintains a huge collection of documents online for those interested :
His 911 Document Archive on Scribd.

-- more --

4. Title : FDR Analysis by DENNIS CIMINO, FDR-EXPERT at the Vancouver, B.C. Hearing, on June 17, 2012. (2 pages) :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

--snip-- all AWACS flying around while covering the east coast area where all events unraveled on 9/11/01, would radar-record all flights with, and without transponders on.
Their full radar profiles would have been transmitted to the E4B "white "Doomsday" planes
--snip-- For operators inside that E4B, hijackers who were switching-off transponders would immensely facilitate the filtering of just those 4 hijacked planes out of the thousands of other normal flights with their transponders on.
They just had to filter all the transponder-on flights out, with one entry in their keyboard, and only the four hijacked, no-transponder on flights would be left over on THAT screen.
Nobody in those AWACS would know, and nobody in the E4B would know, only that specific screen operator.
ONE INSIDE man/woman who could feed back accurate information on those four hijacked flights, to whomever wanted such secure and factual info. --snip--

Read then this 2012 post from my first link in my OP, by, my guess, a pilot or aeronautical engineer at the Amazon.com Customer Discussions > Science forum, titled "Are there scientific proofs to support a 9-11 coverup?" :

Lawrence A. Dickerson says:
Anyway, what is even more phenomenal, is that this aircraft was flown down in a region less than ½ wingspan from the ground, known to any experienced pilot as `ground effect' region or zone. The importance of knowing this, is that no airplane at full throttle flown in ground effect, would want to continue to descend further. Matter of fact, at 465 knots, the plane, without full nose down pitch (which the flight data recorder shows was not the case) would have been required to overcome the `ground effect' cushion and lift coefficient while going on, and the plane would have had no choice but to climb. To force it into the building more or less at the base of the wall where it hit, on the ground floor level, the hijackers would have had to be using FULL NOSE DOWN PITCH to do this.
Not true, says the FDR data given to us by the N.T.S.B. No aircraft in GROUND EFFECT wants to descend further into it at high speed. They all want to climb and even with 10 or more degrees of commanded nose down pitch, a plane of that class would still want to climb out of ground effect due to a huge surplus of lift it was generating. Any pilot wants to challenge this, be my guest. Simply is not disputable here. It cannot be done. This particular aerodynamic fact is irrefutably the most damning road block to the whole cockamamie story about the final portion of this outrageous flight.
Interestingly, the N.T.S.B. gave us two sets of data. One set shows that the FL-180 reset took place per their recreation (and I will get to that again here in a second) and furthermore, the derivative data they provide to us shows that this reset did not take place at all, per the FDR data. How can this be? According to the N.T.S.B., the .csv or comma separated variable data was a derivative of the Crash Protected Memory file in the L-3 Model 2100 Flight Data Recorder on this airplane. Yet, this clearly is not the case at all

And to top it off, the recovered DFDR shows that all autopilot functions were switched off, 10 minutes before.!
This is my opinion on the above, based on what I found out from many professional sources :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Short version : a steering column correctional input is not present at all in all the recovered DFDR data blocks describing the last seconds of flight AA 77.
AND, if you have faith in all these 25 NoC flight path eyewitnesses to be honest and sincere, the only logical conclusion can be, that the "recovered" DFDR is thus a falsification, because it describes a NoC flight path.

Regarding my remarks in my former posts in this thread about the height from the top of the fuselage to the bottom of the jet engine nacelles :

The last of the 5 cut-down lamp poles were cut by its wing-tips at a height of about 20 feet (6.10 meters), while the nose impacted the second floor slab at about 14 feet high above ground level.(4.26 meter), which is a 6 feet (1.84 meter) decrease in height over a circa 180 feet (54.8 meters) distance. There must have been damn little clearance for the undersides of both jet engines nacelles with the lawn. Perhaps even inches/centimeters only.

Remember, if that plane has flown that fast in that dense air, its wing tips would have been flexed up to the maximum possible.
The SoC witnesses saw a much slower flying plane, evidenced by the bank angle of 30 to 35 degrees they saw it flying at. That standard bank angle, combined with the easily to be constructed radius for a slightly curved flight path from over the center of the Navy Annex Wing-8 roof, passing 50 meters north of the CITGO station and curving back to the column 14 impact point on the west wall, implicates without a shimmer of doubt, that the plane flew about 230 MPH inside that NoC curve.

5. Title : The 911Dataset Project.
Crowdsourcing 9/11 information distribution.
3,497,266,016,122 bytes (3,257 GB) (3 TB) in 310,774 files
911datasets.org...
Information posted here is available via Bittorrent :
911datasets.org...
You can use any available free µTorrent (microTorrent) program.

I suppose this dataset also holds all FOIA requested data, also such ones John Farmer, aka 911files here at ATS, posted about, whose links are all dead now.
He moved most of it later to bluecollarrepublican, now John Farmer's website.

6. Title : The September 11 Digital Archive
Saving the histories of September 11, 2001
Their Search function page query, for this example : "CITGO". Click here.


911digitalarchive.org...

Description : I took this photograph from a hill between the Route 27 Overpass and the CITGO Service Station on Joyce St., Arlington, VA at approximately 12:15 p.m. on September 11th. It was a horrible but compelling sight to behold.

It's a view from under a SoC flight path. Note the difference in height for the light poles along Route 27 and further away, along the Pentagon lawn and along the cloverleaf exit ramp leading from the South parking to Route 27.

I would read that whole thread at Amazon.com>Customer Discussions > Science forum.
All their 858 posts, if I were you, the sincere doubting 9/11 reader.

And read all my above links too.

I messed up the post, move along.

I am still retarded, go to next page.