A B757 hit the Pentagon, reported by GOFER06

Naw....now hear......
Ya can't have an airliner flying around at 340 knots without people having cardiac moments when we're used to seein em do the speed limit.....175 indicated ( we do 180 )

Now the 757.....

It's the hottest powered airliner in the inventory worldwide......those turbines, don't ya know...and then as I always exceed fact embellishing a little for effect....if ya stand next to a 757 on the ramp....it's real humbling, because the vertical stabilizer is as tall as a mountain.....

I gotta tell a ya....I gotta have a mark on the wall.....am I asking too much

Lastly....you'll pull the wings off ....is that possibly what happened and the tail just.....the tail just.....

That's just it, where did the vertical stabilizer hit....tell me!

originally posted by: MacK80
That's great but for the third time I was referencing the planes degrees to the ground(building) from the sky and the insane maneuver used...

Great, and for the fourth time you have still not explained why 45* is a 'perfect' angle.

...not the perfect angle to strike an object, if you were even able to read slightly farther than that word, you would see perfect is representing the correction needed to not obliterate on impact with the ground. At the speed of the aircraft, it was a perfect maneuver and correction of angle. But that's all if you could read, looking forward to future irrelevancy.

Actually, any acute angle to the structure would have caused them to impact the terrain at some point. To not do so they would need to be at 90* to the terrain (parallel to the ground-a straight angle) or climbing. Maybe you should have a basic grasp of geometry and angles before you decide when to try and educate us on what is 'perfect' in relation to a scenario.

a reply to: LaBTop

LabTop it was your post in one of the recent threads that led me to the 911datasets.org site and I am still looking through the information. I just scratched the surface and started in the area that I would understand, FAA_RADES_NORAD. I actually had to figure how to use the Torrent but thanks to you, you got me started with that.

I have had my own thoughts on the entire event at a much higher level without drilling down to such a finite level of information you have. I think you have a unique perspective and talent to do so. I did start looking back at old threads but like I said, many of the links/photos/videos have gone stale but the is much discussion.

What I also realized is you and Zaphod58 have been around for some time huh ! You guys are like dinosaurs around here. I am starting to gain a great deal of respect for posters like you and Zaphod58 (and many more) because of your knowledge, willingness to share it and persistence.

I'll re-iterate what I said in the OP, I'm not here to force my opinion on anyone nor can I expect to change my mind just by someone arguing their point over and over. I was in a different camp on the Pentagon issue just a month ago but because of what I see as empirical data that's hard to falsify, I have to admit what I though before has changed.

I haven't had time to read your entire posting here yet but will get to it. I do see contradictions in both sides of the argument this thread alone i.e. Minetas testimony because of listening to the NEADS tapes and the difference in speed of f77 at impact (DFDR/Radar).

I have been looking through the data on the 911datasets site, listening to audio tapes etc. Interesting stuff!

I'm am open to questions you have, I'll tell you if it's outside of my expertise. I'll look through your post over shortly.

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
Naw....now hear......
Ya can't have an airliner flying around at 340 knots without people having cardiac moments when we're used to seein em do the speed limit.....175 indicated ( we do 180 )

Now the 757.....

It's the hottest powered airliner in the inventory worldwide......those turbines, don't ya know...and then as I always exceed fact embellishing a little for effect....if ya stand next to a 757 on the ramp....it's real humbling, because the vertical stabilizer is as tall as a mountain.....

I gotta tell a ya....I gotta have a mark on the wall.....am I asking too much

Lastly....you'll pull the wings off ....is that possibly what happened and the tail just.....the tail just.....

That's just it, where did the vertical stabilizer hit....tell me!

I agree a flight at that speed and height would get the heart going, are you saying there wasn't any cardiac moments ?

a reply to: Alien Abduct

No you weren't.

In all of this discussion, no one who purports that anything other than a commercial 757 filled with passengers can explain how all the bodies of the 757 passengers were found inside the Pentagon. There is a great deal of chatter and all sorts of arcane arguments going on but the bottom line is ignored.
In addition:
No one can describe the missile.
No one can explain how a missile with a limited wingspan looked like an airliner to witnesses and clipped light poles like it was much larger without tumbling gyros or losing lift.
No one can explain the impact with thousands of gallons of Jet-A producing a large diameter fireball. A high explosive payload does not do this and a cruise missile would have to be the size of an airliner to contain such an incendiary payload.

a reply to: pteridine
this is purple nonsense, how can you bear writing it? look up photos of the Pentagon facade taken moments after impact, and before the facade was brought down by demo charges.
1. The wire fence is standing, right next to impact area.
2. there is a black SUV just to the left of the fuselage, unscratched.
3. Unbroken windows where the wing and engines should have impacted.
4. a 757 is an acre of sheet aluminum alloy. NONE in evidence.
5. the hole is about 12 feet in diameter. you think all of a 757 going 400 mph is going to fit in that? you cannot think in simple physical terms. You have to include the wings and tail going in there.
6. the flash of the explosion, recorded by a cctv at a gas station, does not correspond to tons of jet fuel. also, that cctv does not show a 60 foot tail. and most important, of the thousands of cctv security cams about the Pentagon, not one has shown up to present and aircraft impact.
[snipped]

a reply to: pale5218

Great post. Very thorough and well-thought out. I don't know much about ATC operations but your descriptions and explanations made it fairly easy for the layman to follow what was going on. I was already in the 757 camp, but your presentation here is just more evidence to me. It's very detailed and natural to have been fabricated, especially by the dunces Truthers claim pulled this off.

From the radar info showing ground speed, surely someone with more math/physics skills than I have could do a rough calculation from the time they straightened out and began to gain speed to the time the signature was lost, account for the thrust a 757 is capable of generating, and determine if they could have gained that speed over that time/distance in level flight. Such a calculation could blow the doors off the conspiracists angle that he had to be a world-class pilot to fly that close to the ground at that speed. Seems obvious to me that he didn't, he descended into the building with a timed descent, the same way you have to judge your descent rate to land.

Also, who says he was aiming where he hit? Maybe he was aiming for the top of the building, and missed. Look at the WTC. It stands to reason that during the planning stages it was discussed where they should impact the buildings to produce the most casualties and damage. Since both planes didn't hit the same spot on both towers, it seems evident at least one of them missed his aiming point, but since the target was so big he still at least hit the building. The Pentagon is a LARGE building, a quick google search reveals each side is 921 feet. You wouldn't need expert pilot precision to hit it on a controlled descent. Now, I'm just speculating here, but I'm not trying to prove anything with this paragraph, just showing that "he would've had to be a highly trained pilot" isn't the only possible explanation.

In my opinion, the video clearly doesn't show a missile. The wall on the Pentagon is 77 feet tall, the object in the video is much too large in relation to the wall to be a missile.

Once again, to the OP, great post. Thanks for the intriguing presentation.

originally posted by: darkstar57
a reply to: pteridine
this is purple nonsense, how can you bear writing it? look up photos of the Pentagon facade taken moments after impact, and before the facade was brought down by demo charges.
1. The wire fence is standing, right next to impact area.
2. there is a black SUV just to the left of the fuselage, unscratched.
3. Unbroken windows where the wing and engines should have impacted.
4. a 757 is an acre of sheet aluminum alloy. NONE in evidence.
5. the hole is about 12 feet in diameter. you think all of a 757 going 400 mph is going to fit in that? you cannot think in simple physical terms. You have to include the wings and tail going in there.
6. the flash of the explosion, recorded by a cctv at a gas station, does not correspond to tons of jet fuel. also, that cctv does not show a 60 foot tail. and most important, of the thousands of cctv security cams about the Pentagon, not one has shown up to present and aircraft impact.
[snipped]

edit on Mon Mar 20 2017 by DontTreadOnMe because: All Members: 9/11 Conspiracies Forum Update and Information

Since you have this locked down, describe the missile characteristics in general terms. Include size, speed, and warhead.
Why would demo charges be needed to collapse the façade? If they did collapse the façade, would that obscure the impact area?
Explain the passenger bodies in the Pentagon in airplane seats.
What does the flash correspond to? what was burning if not Jet-A?

Then we can get to the bits of airplane scattered about and various other things. I will be interested in hearing your explanations so you can prove my 'purple nonsense' wrong. It is likely that your theory is not well thought out and will not prove anything wrong.

Good gravy.....the smoke from an airliner crash would still be seen to this day........

Amazing display of no common sense.....what we had was a poof....not unlike Shanksville....

But keep up the story......you're writing a great science fiction novel. Yezz

a reply to: GBP/JPY

Bull. United 585 barely burned. Most of the wreckage wasn't even scorched. Same with the recent Germanwings.

a reply to: darkstar57

Unbroken windows where the wing and engines should have impacted

Windows are blast proof several inches thick

a 757 is an acre of sheet aluminum alloy. NONE in evidence.

What do we have here .....

Pieces of aluminum And painted in American airlines colors

pop.h-cdn.co...

www.911myths.com...

Should get eyes checked

the hole is about 12 feet in diameter. you think all of a 757 going 400 mph is going to fit in that? you cannot think in simple physical terms. You have to include the wings and tail going in there.

There are 2 impact holes in Pentagon

one at second floor caused by fuselage - 17 feet in diameter

Larger 96 foot hole at ground level from wings and jet engines

Maybe should do some research instead of parroting conspiracy website......

And about the tail section : note the huge cross-shaped structure that got hurled high into the air in front of the expanding burning jet fuel and smoke cloud, just after impact, in the 2 DoD videos.
That's very probable the severed tail section with its two small horizontal tail-wings.

What has intrigued me all these years is the fact that we never heard anything about that tail section to be found anywhere on the roof, in the inner garden or even at the east side premises of the Pentagon grounds.

The breaking off and getting launched of that tail section is understandable, when you take in account the fact that the nose section smashed right into the first floor slab and destructed a portion of it as big as 3 by 5 meters, as can be seen in the first photos.
The shear deceleration forces forced that section to break and hurled upwards when that plane impacted even under a very slight downward angle. That whole mass tends to want to keep going forward in that split second of impact and then instead get hinged upwards at its weakest, now breaking points, the bolted connections to the top fuselage beams there.
And that huge tail is however very light compared to the fuselage, wings, landing gear and engines sections in front of it.

2 Pictures from : www.kolumbus.fi...
This is how it would have looked from within that second floor, seeing that plane coming at you :



And this is a view from behind the plane at the moment of impact :



Most of the huge pitch black smoke column after the impact came by the way from the 1000 liter burning diesel tank, which stood in front of the nose of the generator trailer, which got probably struck by some right part of the right engine nacelle or pieces of the fence struck by that right engine, or by another broken off plane or wing part.

a reply to: LaBTop

And about the tail section : note the huge cross-shaped structure that got hurled high into the air in front of the expanding burning jet fuel and smoke cloud, just after impact, in the 2 DoD videos.
That's very probable the severed tail section with its two small horizontal tail-wings.

What has intrigued me all these years is the fact that we never heard anything about that tail section to be found anywhere on the roof, in the inner garden or even at the east side premises of the Pentagon grounds

Tail on an airliner is a very light structure - only as strong as needed

It is often built of composite materials around a honeycomb core

Is case crash of American airlines flight 587 in November 2001 caused by excessive rudder movements in response to
wake turbulence

en.wikipedia.org...

Tail was snapped off causing plane to crash

upload.wikimedia.org...

For all the conspiracy types whining about what happened to tail and why there were no marks on building .....

Tail was destroyed on impact - fragmented into million small pieces and scattered around . Some pieces might have been
projected over the Pentagon into the courtyard . At this point nobody cared about the tail except for the conspiracy types

a reply to: LaBTop

So you have determined that a 757 hit the Pentagon and managed to also strike a 250 gallon fuel tank on the way in. I would agree that the fireball was not HE but was jet/diesel. Given the size and position of the fireball, it was likely more due to thousands of gallons of Jet-A that was aerosolized on impact rather than a 250 gallon tank at the base of the building but certainly whatever was in the tank added to the fires.

a reply to: LaBTop

A most courteous and positive post to pale. Yes, respectful and courteous exchange is the hallmark of rational public dialogue.



But what are the sides here really? No airplanes v. maybe airplanes? Controlled demolition v. natural collapse from fires?

And that's just a rhetorical question.

As to what those at the Citgo station testified about, I watched that video when it first came out, and I can't remember the year. Craig Ranke and the Citizens Investigative Team put it all together. And at the time I found it most interesting and useful for analyzing what really happened. I found the witnesses to be telling the truth as best they knew it, each person. 2 of them were cops. Perhaps ironic that all those people were there at the same time, but believable. And they all described the same thing, an airliner.

One of them was a Navy pilot out of the service but still working in defense, and what he described, hundreds of yards from the gas station, fit right in to what they said.

That's why I believe it.

I don't mean to try and take this thread off track, but the size of the hole is compelling. One glaring piece of the puzzle in this horrific event is always ignored, the location, the area that was hit and what was destroyed. That's what ties the Pentagon in with Bldg 7 and the crash of the plane in Pennsylvania ties into the Pentagon, because the coroner stated he could find no blood at the crash site. Pentagon and Pennsylvania, how do two massive constructs of mostly metal, dissentegrate to where forensic science doesn't find clues.. I am a firm believer that this day was planned, but not by whom we are led to believe were responsible. Good God people, how many amazing facts can you pull out of one day that are first time ever occurences? Find the money trail and you find your architect..

originally posted by: SisyphusG
I don't mean to try and take this thread off track, but the size of the hole is compelling. One glaring piece of the puzzle in this horrific event is always ignored, the location, the area that was hit and what was destroyed. That's what ties the Pentagon in with Bldg 7 and the crash of the plane in Pennsylvania ties into the Pentagon, because the coroner stated he could find no blood at the crash site. Pentagon and Pennsylvania, how do two massive constructs of mostly metal, dissentegrate to where forensic science doesn't find clues.. I am a firm believer that this day was planned, but not by whom we are led to believe were responsible. Good God people, how many amazing facts can you pull out of one day that are first time ever occurences? Find the money trail and you find your architect..

Rather than obfuscate with many purported facts, why don't we examine this in some detail.

Where did what coroner not find blood? Link?

If it was inside the inferno, would you expect blood to still be there after the fires? Yes or no.

Did the coroner find bodies strapped into airline seats? Yes or no.

Did the Coroner determine who the bodies were? Yes or no.

If the bodies didn't arrive by plane how did they get there?

Back to the opening poster's intentions.

This is another thread (2009) about GOPHER06, with tailnumber 95-1002, the C-130 flown by Lt. Col. Steve O'Brien, in which you, pale5218 also participated already in 2009 in, at the top of page 2 :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Sadly, a LOT of links and photos are dead links now, my former online repository site, www.alsx.info suddenly disappeared in 2009, and the aal77.com site from John Farmer (aka 911files at ATS) was pulled down by himself in 2009, after too many insults he could not bear anymore.
Try the WayBackMachine page from Archive.org to try to get them back up. Link follows later.

By the way, my OP was in error regarding the FAA flight controller slips, it were altitudes on there, as you already informed me about at that 2009 time. Nevertheless, the rest of the posts by several members in the know, gave a lot of solid additional info that you or the readers, might need.

Could you, pale5218, look into my BOBCAT14, BOBCAT17 and WORD31 (E-4B, Doomsday plane) remarks in this 2009 post of mine in there :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And especially look into this Miles Kara (former NSA analyst) file that is a timeline of military departures based on Control Tower logs from Andrews AFB.

Because these three military planes were all reasonably close to the incoming AA 77 plane, and the Secret Service knew minutes in advance in the White House, informing VP Cheney there, about AA 77 coming towards them, or to any other intended goal close by, one and a half hour after both other planes hit the Twin Towers. Thus they must have understood the grave intentions of the hijackers.
So why were those two fighter jets not set on a chase of AA 77, with afterburners on (F-16 top speed is Mach 2.3, 2414 km/hr, 0.67 km/second).?
How far in miles/km were these 2 jet fighters from AA77.? And thus, how fast in minutes or seconds could they have reached its flight path.?

We know that several other fighter pilots later said they were so full of adrenaline and patriotism at those times, that they would have flown their unarmed jets into one of the hijacked planes, if necessary. And of course would have used their eject-seats just before hitting the airliner.

And the E-4B with call sign WORD31 must have followed AA 77 on their screens, see the Miles Kara file I linked to, above.
WORD31 departed 09:26:30, thus was already 12 minutes up in the air and monitoring the airspace that AA 77 crossed, just before it impacted.
VENUS77 (white B747), which was seen over the Pentagon, departed 6 minutes later at 09:44:41.
VENUS22 landed at Andrews AFB at 09:49.
While AA 77 had hit the Pentagon's west wall at 09:38:40.
And that first launched E-4B probably was the source for the SS its announcements that the plane was 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 miles out, in the White House, as told to Cheney there.
And what can you say about this curious remark at 09:31:40, 7 minutes before AA 77 struck :
"Tape 7982CIA,Ground Control) Gofer06 requests temporary hold to enhance INS system"
Was this a maneuver to stay in that specific airspace for the coming minutes.?

If one suspects AA 77 to have been flown at least the last 5 miles under remote control, then this C-130 would be the prime suspect to have been the controller plane, airborne above the target area.

This was an interesting post for you, pale5218, by rhunter at the bottom of page 1 in that thread :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
A pity that his pict.com files can not be traced there anymore, perhaps try the WayBackMachine.?
Same goes for his datafilehost.com files :

The requested file (ID# e41357f2) no longer exists on DATAFILEHOST.COM. It was either removed by the owner of the file, removed due to violation of our terms of service, or removed automatically due to inactivity.

Then you, pale5218, reported at the top of page 2 (thanks again) :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And this is a thread about the same GOPHER06-subject in it, at the former Randi.org 9/11 forum :
forums.randi.org...

This is also a reliable pre-, during- and after-9/11 news-feed site :
www.historycommons.org...

Sometimes it is beneficiary to try to resurrect old links by means of the Internet Archive their WayBackMachine site pages :
Explore more than 284 billion web pages saved over time : archive.org...

Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free Books, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine :
archive.org...

And their Television archive is also huge :
archive.org...
archive.org...
You can find a more complete version of this collection (3000 hours of television from 20 channels over 7 days) here : archive.org...

a reply to: LaBTop

The top speed of the F-16, is both accurate, and not. While it is capable of over Mach 2, that is in a clean configuration, at high altitude, with a partial fuel load. With a full load of fuel, plus externals, and at low altitude, it's much lower.

The E-4 would only have been responsible for those calls if they were getting them from somewhere else. The E -4B only has the standard weather radar, that might pick up other aircraft, but not at long range with any kind of identification.