How is Mary not a false Idol?

a reply to: sad_eyed_lady

She was conceived without original sin. She never sinned.

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Luke 1:47
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God Romans 3:23

She is ever virgin

Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Matthew 13:55-56
And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
Luke 2:7

Like all Saints she intercedes (prays) for us to the Lord.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
1 Timothy 2:5

Why is she called Our Lady? When Christ told the apostle John: "Behold your mother." She became mother of all Christians.

Why would that make her become mother to all Christians? Did John also become son to all Christians?

We do not worship her or statues and paintings that represents her. We venerate (honor) her and the Saints.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them
Exodus 20:4-5a

originally posted by: Xeven
I am just curious how worship of Mary is not a false Idol? I am not trying to pick a fight. I am exploring my spirituality and trying to understand?

Also, if God knows everything and is the creator, why did he create sin?

Anything or anyone (Mary, Jesus, Spaghetti Monster) worshipped besides God the Creator - is a false Idol.

And God did not "create" sin, since sin is not a "thing".

Some food for thought:

Marian Dogma occurs when there is accepted beliefs are challenged.

"I am the Immaculate Conception" was the response Mary gave to an illiterate peasant girl, Bernadette. This was enough to convince the local pastor and the Pope that the apparitions at Lourdes, France in 1858 were genuine. Bernadette's body was found to be incorrupt at her exhumation for the canonization process. Immaculate conception means she was conceived with out sin. A special privilege for the woman who was to carry God incarnate.

Graven images:

The Lord did not prohibit statues; he prohibited the adoration of them. If God truly meant that we were not to possess any statues at all, then he would later contradict himself. Just five chapters after this commandment in Exodus 20, God commanded Moses to build the ark of the Covenant, which would contain the presence of God and was to be venerated as the holiest place in all of Israel. Here is what God commanded Moses concerning the statues on it: And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends (Ex. 25:18–19).

www.catholic.com...

On the Ever-Virginity of the Theotokos (Mother of God)


Bad Aramaic Made Easy

This is important because the meaning of the Aramaic word for "brother" (aha) not only includes the meanings already mentioned but also includes other close relations, including cousins. In fact, there was no word for "cousin" in Aramaic. If one wanted to refer to the cousin relationship, one has to use a circumlocution such as “the son of his uncle” (brona d-`ammeh). This often is too much trouble, so broader kinship terms are used that don’t mean “cousin” in particular; e.g., ahyana ("kinsman"), qariwa ("close relation"), or nasha ("relative"). One such term is aha, which literally means “brother” but is also frequently used in the sense of “relative, kinsman.” The first Christians in Palestine, not having a word for cousin, would normally have referred to whatever cousins Jesus had with such a general term and, in translating their writing or speech into Greek, it is quite likely that the Aramaic word aha would have been rendered literally with the Greek word for brother (adelphos).

In a presentation on Spiritual Warfare, Fr. Chad Ripperger and re-known scholar and exorcist stated that exorcist call on certain Saints when attempting to expel demons and their assistance is noticeable. St. Pio, St. Dymphna and Pope John Paul II were the ones I recall him naming. He says when Mary shows up it's over and the demon has to flee. Something he also said that stuck with me is that if you don't believe in demons come and hold down the chair the possessed is sitting in at my next exorcism.
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

"My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge, and the way that will lead you to God."

Note the absence of the word "only".
www.rosary-center.org...

Again, we don't worship Mary or the Saints. We hold them in high esteem and ask them to intercede for us to the Lord.

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

Archbishop Fulton Sheen

If you want to know the truth about what Catholics believe look for answers on Catholic websites.

originally posted by: sad_eyed_lady
a reply to: SethTsaddik

I know Muslims hold Mary/Miriam in great esteem.

I really like this thought of yours "...they are extreme examples of human perfection and to not venerate seems the greater sin."

As a Catholic we also venerate saints who have obtained a high degree of perfection. For many of them sanctification was a long road to travel. There is a saying: "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." Hope for all.

Thank you for the compliment.

Excellent sentiment too.

My favorite Saint is Clement of Rome, besides the 12 apostles that is.

Or James the Just aka Ya'akov ha Zaddik.

a reply to: Butterfinger

If veneration of Mary is necromancy why doesn't she appear in visible form or talk back?

I think your understanding is Bullock's.

Jesus was a necromancer, it means to raise the dead.

It has no meaning that connects with praying to Saints, a rather harmless thing.

Nobody knows God's name so whenever you pray you are praying to God, who I doubt cares very much about the name praise to by the praying person.

Ultimately it's in his hands and to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever been made to eat the statue of a Saint.

Now the golden calf was, and by Moses who then had the Levites kill everyone who honored the calf besides his family, even though Aaron made the calf.

You clearly need to learn the definition of necromancy, none of which are related to praying to Mary or anyone.

Unless the deceased person makes an appearance or rises from the dead it is not even close to necromancy.

Very judgy of you.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Necromancy is any communication also including worship or veneration of the dead("Saints") by asking them for favors or advice(prayers of supplication).

nec·ro·man·cy
ˈnekrəˌmansē/
noun
noun: necromancy

the supposed practice of communicating with the dead, especially in order to predict the future.
witchcraft, sorcery, or black magic in general.
synonyms: sorcery, (black) magic, witchcraft, witchery, wizardry, the occult, occultism, voodoo, hoodoo;


I see no contradiction in my post

a reply to: Butterfinger

It really isn't.

It's what I already said it was.

And not veneration of Saints.

Apples and oranges dude. It plain is not necromancy, by definition and result.

It was not an intelligent remark, but you made it. Recognize it, correct it and move on.

But don't try and change the definition of necromancy because of it, that's not honest at all.

You are just wrong.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Produce something to back up your definition, so far all Ive found disprove your assertion that it only means raising the dead.

Everywhere I look its all about communication.

Definition of Necromancy from several sources

I play D&D so I see your definition as raising the dead, but theres other applications. But the "Mancy" form means communication reciprocal or not.

a reply to: Butterfinger

Buddy, I don't need to.

Prayer is not necromancy, I could produce a link that says philosophy is Satanism but it is not so your link, which I don't need, means nothing.

Prayer is not necromancy, no matter who to, never has been and never will.

Necromancy is raising the dead, like Jesus did, or summoning dead people.

If the communication is one way it is just prayer.

If a dead person speaks, appears or rises from the dead it's necromancy.

I don't need to prove common knowledge.

Sorry you said something ridiculous and can't own it.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

I think you're Trolling me.

I have produced definitions from several sources, even the English language via Latin (Necro-dead-Mancy-communion)

Just look up "Mancy" definitions, the etymology of the word isn't resurrection or reanimation.

Your hyperbole doesn't stand against language use, you'll need a source besides yourself. plugging your ears and closing your eyes to simple evidence doesn't change reality

Until then, I think youre trolling.

a reply to: Butterfinger

Trolling you?

No, I just corrected you and you are offended.

Don't say such absurd things as praying to Mary is necromancy and I won't correct you.

If anything you should thank me for correcting your erroneous definition, now you know what necromancy actually means and that it doesn't have the slightest thing to do with praying to the virgin Mary.

Which is just ridiculous if you know what necromancy is and aren't just talking trash about someone's faith. It's not extreme, it's flat out false. Do you want to look like a liar?

I would hope not. Or like an intolerant, judgemental b.s.er?

That was the reason I corrected you. Necromancy has a definition and it involves much more than thoughts directed to heaven, whether God or Heavenly Saint like Virgin Mary, the Queen of Heaven in Catholicism.

Black magic is the popular term for things like necromancy and to connect that to a person's faith untruthfully is terrible for the soul and a sign of a darker feeling about Catholicism than you let on.

If you think negative things you are a negative person. If you think negative things that aren't true you have a reason and it involves a negative attitude about another's way of life, in this case Catholicism.

Everyday Catholics are the epitome of Christian charity in my book. Catholicism is the Spiritual foundation for 2 billion people and despite the evil past and present that is not the members but the priesthood and not their sins.

Necromancy is a dark art, all so called magical arts depend on will and INTENT.

Unless one intends to communicate with the dead by voice and/or sight, or raise them, they are not trying to perform necromancy.

A prayer to Mary or a Saint is... a prayer to Mary or a Saint.

Nothing more.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Read a dictionary and dont get so offended.

Im flattered you hold my opinion so high, but honestly find a hobby.

Just dont be an English teacher.

Cheers

originally posted by: Butterfinger
a reply to: SethTsaddik

Read a dictionary and dont get so offended.

Im flattered you hold my opinion so high, but honestly find a hobby.

Just dont be an English teacher.

Cheers

It's you who got offended and needs a dictionary. And then some.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
originally posted by: Butterfinger
a reply to: SethTsaddik


It's you who got offended and needs a dictionary. And then some.

Ok, meanwhile Catholic.org has a definition:


The practice of necromancy supposes belief in the survival of the soul after death, the possession of a superior knowledge by the disembodied spirit, and the possibility of communication between the living and the dead.

In the Bible, necromancy is also called “divination,” “sorcery” and “spiritism” (Leviticus 19:26; Deuteronomy 18:10; Galatians 5:19-20; Acts 19:19)

So far dictionaries and your Catholic church disagrees with you.

a reply to: Butterfinger

and speaks of warm blood poured into the veins of a corpse as if to restore it to life

brilliant

a reply to: kibric

Never actually says Necromancy in that case, but I had to read this text for a college course... not bad!

‘Set aside the fears your fearful minds conceive; now life in familiar shape will return to him, so that even the fearful might hear him speak.... Then she began by filling fresh wounds in the breast of that corpse with warm blood, washing the innards clean of gore pouring into them moon-born poison.

To call back expressly to commune with the dead to gain some knowledge.

Context is key.

a reply to: Butterfinger

Exorcist Gabriel Amorth stated in one of his books that demons have the ability to mimic the voices of the deceased.

Also from you catholic.org article:

The Church does not deny that, with a special permission of God, the souls of the departed may appear to the living, and even manifest things unknown to the latter. But, understood as the art or science of evoking the dead, necromancy is held by theologians to be due to the agency of evil spirits, for the means taken are inadequate to produce the expected results.

How could one know whether it was a beloved one who passed or the devil? Yoko Ono says she talks with John Lennon. I think she's talking to a demon, but that's my faith not hers.

In pretended evocations of the dead, there may be many things explainable naturally or due to fraud ; how much is real, and how much must be attributed to imagination and deception, cannot be determined, but real facts of necromancy, with the use of incantations and magical rites, are looked upon by theologians, after St. Thomas, II-II, Q. xcv, aa. iii, iv, as special modes of divination, due to demoniacal intervention, and divination itself is a form of superstition.

originally posted by: Butterfinger

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
originally posted by: Butterfinger
a reply to: SethTsaddik


It's you who got offended and needs a dictionary. And then some.

Ok, meanwhile Catholic.org has a definition:


The practice of necromancy supposes belief in the survival of the soul after death, the possession of a superior knowledge by the disembodied spirit, and the possibility of communication between the living and the dead.

In the Bible, necromancy is also called “divination,” “sorcery” and “spiritism” (Leviticus 19:26; Deuteronomy 18:10; Galatians 5:19-20; Acts 19:19)

So far dictionaries and your Catholic church disagrees with you.

I like that definition because it could easily be that my definition paraphrases it correctly.


The person doesn't care about actual definitions, just defending the one he said was true but wasn't.

Intolerance and dislike if not hatred makes a person defend lies like this told to accuse Catholics of a crime they are guilty of.

They are my favorite people to engage because if they're saying such falsehoods they aren't educated about the subject they are speaking.

As you just did it's easy to dismantle their claims and hopefully people won't be persuaded to believe lies.

a reply to: Butterfinger

as a practitioner
necromancy is communing with the recently dead
and also at higher skill
restoring some life back into them

fresh blood is very important
there have been studies on how
blood is rejuvenating
even back to Paracelsus

shame that the art is feared

a reply to: kibric

Thank you for piping in, I figured the reanimation part was more or less relegated to fiction because of popular scientific reasoning. Kind of like "I believe in Heaven, but not Hell".

I'd like to pick your brain someday on this subject