How is Mary not a false Idol?

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Xeven

Just for the record, different religions and denominations view the Virgin Mary/Mariam/Miriam quite differently. As a Muslim, I'll tell our basic perspective of her, though different denominations may add more to what I'll say.

How is Mary not a false idol?

We believe she was an amazing believer who gave birth to the Prophet Issa/Essa/"Jesus" (and it was a virgin birth, at that). But we do NOT view her as an idol or false idol.

She is highly respected in Islam & the Qur'an mentions her positively, even going so far as to call out the false believers of her time who slandered her (Surah 4:156, Pickthall translation - read 153-159 for context). In fact, one of the 114 Surahs of the Qur'an is even named after her! (Surah 19, Al -Maryam, Pickthall translation).

I am just curious how worship of Mary is not a false Idol?

We believe that only God is to be worshiped, so worshiping anything or anyone other than God is "false". But that's not her fault so she wouldn't deserve any blame for that; the blame would go to those who are worshiping her and promoting the worship of her.

Also, if God knows everything and is the creator, why did he create sin?

We basically believe that life in this realm is just a series of tests to see which souls are worthy of Heaven/Jannah. So humans and jinn are given "free will" and the ability to choose our own spiritual paths, for better or for worse. And though we believe that God and His Angels do intervene in our existences, we're also allowed the freedom to "pass" or "fail" the tests we're given (hence "sin").

(note: In Islam, this "free will" is more like "the ability to reject God" than "the ability to make your own choices". As in, we believe that animals can make their own decisions, but they have no ability to reject God.)

Salaam brother!!!

Happy to see a fellow Muslim representing Islam as it is in truth and not how Fundamental Christianity likes to portray us, as antichrists and terrorists.

Liars and propagandists that they be, I don't count them as "people of the book" because they don't believe in peaceful coexistence but wish to destroy Islam out of plain ignorance.

May Allah forgive their lies and hypocrisy.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I would also like to add the Qur'an speaks of Miriam more than does the New Testament and that Catholicism actually admired Islam for this and recognized them as true believers in the beginning and again officially since Vatican II.

The beef between Islam and Christianity is only outside of Catholicism, who has a functioning diplomatic relation with Islam.

a reply to: Xeven

You raise reasonable questions that have not been, in most cases, answered adequately.

Unfortunately, reasonable questions don't always result in reasonable answers...

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
We basically believe that life in this realm is just a series of tests to see which souls are worthy of Heaven/Jannah. So humans and jinn are given "free will" and the ability to choose our own spiritual paths, for better or for worse. And though we believe that God and His Angels do intervene in our existences, we're also allowed the freedom to "pass" or "fail" the tests we're given (hence "sin").

Wouldn't God know which Souls are worthy of Heaven before they are even created, though? Why do we need to undergo a test? Who are we proving ourselves to? Does an omnipotent and omniscient being require reverence?

(note: In Islam, this "free will" is more like "the ability to reject God" than "the ability to make your own choices". As in, we believe that animals can make their own decisions, but they have no ability to reject God.)

If God did not want us to reject him, why did he instil the ability to reject him?

originally posted by: Xeven
I will go ahead and ask my next question. If God loves us all, and created us all fully knowing some would burn in hell for eternity for not believing. How is that love?

That act alone seems like a Satanic action. Which leads to if all powerful why did God allow Satan to exist if he loves us?

If God is real it appears to me he is one mean SOB.

that means that either there is no god or satan is god ....i prefer the former

a reply to: Xeven

The Mary question is a tricky one. Mother of God and all that. I think it's the Feminine divine that all patriarchical rail against but carefully keep in their belief system to keep us attached with a mother figure. I don't get it.

The sin question is easy - there is no such thing as sin.

As to evil - the gnostics got it right when they named the creator of this world the Demiurge

a reply to: DISRAELI

"Sin" is people trying to ignore him.

hahahah - whats was Job's sin?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Adam chose to disobey (sin) therefore we all have that choice in us (sin).

ah so we didn't get it directly from Adam, through inheritance as most christians claim - I see why the need for predestination - what a joke.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Adam chose to disobey (sin) therefore we all have that choice in us (sin).

ah so we didn't get it directly from Adam, through inheritance as most christians claim - I see why the need for predestination - what a joke.

Catholicism maintains that a request to Mary, the saints, and/or angels for intercession on our behalf is NOT to be confused with worship, which is reserved for God alone. Moreover, an angel of the Lord will not allow themselves to be worshipped.

I knew a very devout Catholic who asked Mother Theresa for intercession on my behalf on the day she died, & there was indeed an answer.

a reply to: Xeven

Text I will go ahead and ask my next question. If God loves us all, and created us all fully knowing some would burn in hell for eternity for not believing. How is that love? That act alone seems like a Satanic action. Which leads to if all powerful why did God allow Satan to exist if he loves us? If God is real it appears to me he is one mean SOB.

Many people have asked that same question in not understanding scripture. The Most High did not create you or me. Your mom and pop procreated you without the help of the Most High Father. The Father gave His creation the great gift of a free mind to do as each would want to do. Your mom and pop, with their freedom to do as they pleased, had a union of bodies and you are the result of that union.

It is as though you could blame anyone or anything for what you do which is very unfair to the Father. If God knew that you would end in hell then why not destroy you from the onset? Simply because God must be total truth. If He micromanaged His creation then it would not be total truth. He gave you and I the freedom of choice and if He then interfered in that of which He gave it would not be freedom of choice and it would be a lie from the Creator. All creation must play out in the creation so that none of creation could accuse the Father in the judgment of afterlife.

From time to time the Father will cause an action knowing that the action will teach but He never interferes with the will of that action. As you note in history, God allows even the most foul events and can direct another action to overcome that foul action but He always allows freedom of the individual of His creation.

Now that deepens the bitterness of some in that they cannot understand the Most High ordering the slaughter of thousands of creatures which we assume to be human. These people then automatically assume that there is an OT god and a NT god. But not so, The Most High is the same Father as from Adam to today. What is the truth in this matter? The truth is that through freedom of the flesh women procreated with the celestial host and brought forth three races of creatures who were not the creation of the Father. These were the Great Giants who in turn brought forth the Nephiliym who in turn brought forth the Elioud. These three races were not the creation of the Most High and did survive the flood of Noach and their seeds were present throughout the land as we come to Abraham and Nimrod.

These seeds of the three races of creatures were not of the Father and were ordered to be erased from the Creators creation through the Hebrews. Even the animals were to be erased as these three races of evil mated with animals as well as humans and as well as their very own seeds. As one reads the OT without oral Torah they then assume that which is not understood by them. The dead sea scrolls reveal this in the book of Enoch but is mostly ignored by the critics of literature.

This I show to you only as an example that some will use in their own understanding as an excuse to curse the Most High. God allows by His permissive will and not His perfect will. He is not a dictator nor does He suppress the gift of freedom of the flesh. He is not to blame for you and I sinning and not to blame for our own actions to be cast into hell. We have done all of this all by ourselves.

originally posted by: Xeven

But why so much faith in human writings? I cant get there. I do not want to live in hell but just having faith in human writings is beyond me. I need god to say hello to me or something?

I agree: why put so much faith in a book that was written by humans when there's no proof of God existing at all?

But some are saying that sin is forgiven because God sacrificed his only son on the cross.... and seeing as there is only one God which is divided in 3 (God, Jesus and the holy spirit), meaning Jesus is God, our sins are forgiven because:

God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself.

Makes sense now?
/sarc /

originally posted by: schuyler
I know this is a common Protestant criticism of Catholicism, and I have never understood THAT. It's like every time a Catholic mentions a saint, the Protestants claim "False Idol! False Idol!" St. Jude: False Idol! St. Patrick: False Idol! Good Lord, give it a rest.

I think it's jealousy, because other Christian churches will never be as powerful and have as many followers as the Catholic church. This is why some are obsessed with criticizing the Catholic church.

And I say this as a non-catholic.

a reply to: Agartha

While I can't rule out some power envy, there's a veritable litany of complaints that Protestants have leveled at Catholics for a long time. Much of the criticism still comes down to a core list that can be traced clear back to Luther--the subject of this thread being a big one (prayers to Mary = idolatry). Add to that the Catholic's belief in transubstantiaion during the mass vs. the Protestant interpretation of what communion should be, all of the objections to the Papacy, and the Catholic's take on scripture to name just a few.

The funny thing to me has always been how much anti-Catholic rhetoric is out there vs. what I hear the Catholics saying about Protestants--which is virtually nothing. If anything, they put more emphasis on bridging the divide and building an ecumenical community of brotherhood in Christ. (Just my own opinion and experience.) In high school, I even had a priest implore us not to bag on people of the LDS faith because while their beliefs are very different, they do put a major emphasis on the importance of family.

I've come to believe that much more good comes from recognizing the things we have in common, rather than focusing on the differences. And that belief extends to all faiths--Buddhism, Islam, etc.

a reply to: Xeven

Will there be free will in heaven? If not, then we are not "we" in heaven. How is that different than eternal nothingness?

Certainly there was free will in heaven at one time. That is where sin started according to most bibles and sin is not accountable if you have no free will. In order to stay justified does not mean you are not aware of sin. Revelation tells us that the saints in heaven and under the alter were very much aware of sin on this earth so I assume that all creation is aware of the choice to sin. Doesen't the Lords Prayer tell us that it will be in heaven as it is on the earth?

a reply to: Gandalf77

I couldn't agree more with you! If you go online you'll find hundreds of protestant/evangelical sites that are obsessed about the Catholic church! All they do is try to convince others that Catholics are evil. I had a coworker who was a Jehova witness and she went on and on about the Catholic church... and not because they've ever done anything to her, but because her religion taught her they are bad.

And you are absolutely right: the catholic church is always trying to build bridges to reach other religions... Pope Francis even visited a mosque. You never hear catholics criticize people of different beliefs. I know the church was horrendous in the past, but the last couple of decades we have seen it changed for the better.

The Catholic Church still insists on the perpetual virginity of Mary but she was the mother of James, Joses and Salome, all siblings of Jesus, according to Mark 15:40

...; among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the Mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome. These used to follow him and provided for him when he was in Galilee.

James the younger/lesser is known to be James the Just brother of the Lord. These people took care of Jesus in Galilee because it was his hometown and family.

Obviously the not mentioning of Jesus being her son too was a redaction because Mary the Mother of Joses, James and Salome is also the mother of Jesus (and a few others).

Oddly this irrefutable proof that Mary birthed children from a sexual union is never mentioned in any perpetual virgin discussion I have ever heard.

Oh the lying Catholic Church, is there no truth in you at all?

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: Xeven

The Mary question is a tricky one. Mother of God and all that. I think it's the Feminine divine that all patriarchical rail against but carefully keep in their belief system to keep us attached with a mother figure. I don't get it.

The sin question is easy - there is no such thing as sin.

As to evil - the gnostics got it right when they named the creator of this world the Demiurge

Hallelu... Sophia!!!

a reply to: Malocchio
I would suggest there's plenty of truth, including the most important truth of all: Jesus is who he says he is. Certainly Protestants & Catholics alike can agree on that. And at the end of the day, what else is there to discuss where truth is concerned?

originally posted by: Gandalf77
a reply to: Malocchio
I would suggest there's plenty of truth, including the most important truth of all: Jesus is who he says he is. Certainly Protestants & Catholics alike can agree on that. And at the end of the day, what else is there to discuss where truth is concerned?

I am down with Jesus and the 12.

I don't do Paul because he is a false prophet.

I am a Muslim and I respect much in Catholicism but do not support the theory that the Bible or New Testament is true to history but that Jesus words can be trusted and the rest is suspect.

I like James and John and 1 Peter, Revelation is a misunderstood book that keeps imminent destruction at the forefront of Christian ideology but was meant for the people of the time and not future generations, it had a specific audience.

I prefer the Apocrypha though. The Acts of the individual Apostles and the Revelations of Peter and John (yes another one).

But the Gospel of Barnabas is my favorite Gospel because it's relevant to Islam and declares Paul a decieved deciever, rightfully so.

After the Travels of Peter aka the Clementine Homilies and Recognitions, the most sophisticated, and one of the oldest, Christian theological texts, the height of Christs teachings to Peter then Clement of Rome and satirizes Paul using Simon Magus.

So truth is there but it is buried in the lies of men and must be dug up.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Wouldn't God know which Souls are worthy of Heaven before they are even created, though?

Yes! In fact, the Qur'an constantly says things to that effect. You're forgetting that the tests are for us, not for Him.

Why do we need to undergo a test?

In modern sci-fi terms, this universe is a "sandbox" and we're a form of AI. We're in the final testing phase to see which AI "robots" (us) will willingly act correctly in the real dimension (aka Heaven).

It's no different than if scientists finally created truly independent AI. Would we immediately unleash all of them into civilian populations? Or would we put them in a test environment first, to see which ones can be trusted unattended? It also wouldn't make sense to allow even "nice" AI to live among humans if those specific robots rejected the existence of and relevance of humans, would it?

Does an omnipotent and omniscient being require reverence?

How would I know that? LOL. That's like asking a painting about the wants and needs of its painter.

But for the record, Islam doesn't believe that God needs us; it's us that need Him. Hence all of our common phrases that translate into things like "All glory goes to God!", "If God wills it", "God is great!", etc. But you seem to be forgetting that Muslims voluntarily serve God, hence the name (since a "Muslim" is "one who submits to God").

If God did not want us to reject him, why did he instil the ability to reject him?

I thought I already explained that part?