The Obvious Strategy of The Islamic State Is Working, You’re All Being Stupid

originally posted by: introvert
Thanks for being honest enough to call it what it is......stupidity.

There have been a few threads I've participated in after the Paris attacks in which I tried to respectfully get that point across, and a couple times not so respectful.

Ignorance and stupidity is a driving force behind many of our personal bias and beliefs. We have to let reason and logic overcome our preconceived bias'.

Perhaps it's just as much about ego as it is stupidity?

What youre describing isnt "stupidity". You dont like it so you feel you have to call it "stupid". Children do the same thing regarding homework they dont like to do.

Now, when a bomb explodes and kills people and we're informed Muslims did it, we react a certain way. That way is to become suspicious of Muslims, the stated source of the bombing. Thats known as "logical". If you see a guy get mauled to death by lions, and you then avoid lions, does that then make you "stupid"? Of course not.

Youre tripping over yourself trying to be more PC than the next guy and not making any sense in the process. Youre anti-hate. Nothing wrong with that and i get it, but in the wake of 80 killed, to pretend there are no precautions one should take regarding Muslims IS, in fact...stupid.

a reply to: RedParrotHead

That's just called paranoia and that reasoning can be applied to anyone. Muslim or otherwise.

a reply to: Urantia1111

So when this started up again, Planned Parenthood Arson Latest in Series of Violent Acts Against Clinics does that justify us being suspicious of Christians?

There has been a level of bigotry tolerated by the ats mods here in the last few years that is sickening. Last month I was on a thread that some person called for the extermination of the Palestinian people and I quote "these people are animals that deserve to be put down", this thread was about kids and old people. My comment calling the person sick for saying that was removed but he was allowed to waffle his bile to the world without reprimand. This token bs thread offered up by the ats higher ups is nothing more than a falsehood show trying to look fair. The absolute disgusting talk that has been let run rampant against Muslims is disgusting. This may be a try at disfusing what is happening but it is too little too late.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

While I agree with what you've said, I don't think the goal is really the goal of ISIS/ISIL. I think the goal (causing aggression toward Muslim communities to spark backlash) was created by the owner's/master's/puppet master's/TPTB, etc.

There is no way these radical barbarians running around the desert really created this plan. They surely don't benefit from that plan. TPTB, however, DO benefit from this plan.

Regardless, I agree with not succumbing to this obvious ruse to create more hate.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
Why would I want the Sunni refugees in my country? Inviting Sunni is inviting a possibility of more indoctrinated insane souls by Saudi Arabia.

I agree with careful screening of refugee claimants within the current flood and I'm sure those countries on the receiving end will be hard-pressed to do that job. There will be moderate Sunni families trying to escape execution as well as some who might be radicalized. People are complicated... some not a good fit, many others worthy.

Refugees also come from Christian nations in Africa (Nigeria, Ethiopia, etc.) as well as Christian Yazidis from iraq.

This is why I don't think we should, or even can stop that flood.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord

While I try not to hate any human being, I sure as heck hate the tactics and ideology of a "religion" that states that all non-believers must convert or die.

Then you hate Christianity? You do realize the Bible contains lots of that... correct?

Seriously? Maybe I'm reading a different Bible, but I don't see where it says for Christians who follow Christ to go out an murder people if they don't believe. The part I read says to shake the dust from your feet and move on.

Ugh, there is just waaaaayyyyyy to much political correctness on these forums anymore. Anyone who posts an opposing view to high ranking member is immediately ostracized and beat up like a right-wing, Christian in a liberal profs philosophy class.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Would You be so kind and remind me please how many Christians, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, Pastafarians, Rastafarian, Jedi, Taoist, Scientologists, Atheists,Agnostics, Gnostic, Wicca... have blown themselves up in the middle of a crowd in the recent history of our planet due to their "weaponized version of religion" ? Maybe You could remind me how many of the above have hijacked planes in name of their religion ? Mass shootings ?...

What You do not seem to understand (I think) is that, a lot of us know exactly what ISIS goal is, and we are happy to oblige, because this religion at this point in time, is a plague to the world. I understand that You might happily invoke the crusades, and You would be right, but for a simple fact. That was hundreds of years ago, and most of the world has evolved past this kind of atrocities but for a select few. Would You be so kind to maybe wager a guess which religion stayed in the dark ages ? To be clear: I am talking strictly about religion based warfare, since we all know there is resource based warfare which is a totally different topic.

You could also invoke those few ultra radical Christians that tried to kill somebody or bomb a clinic, and You would be right, but could You please be so kind and tell me what the ratio of christian bombings/kills would be to the ratio of that other religion ? Just to be clear I am not Christian, but I use this religion as an example since its one of the most practiced in the world.

I tend to be a objective guy, usually stay out of political dilemmas since, I understand that different people have radical different opinions, and that's their right, and who am I to tell the differently. Sadly there is a line after which radical opinions are starting to directly cause real life deaths in the hundreds, and crossing that line cannot be tolerated, regardless of how much we all would like to be civilized and Politically Correct. We tried that and it failed, and that is the sad fact.

The "Western Civilization" was more than happy to live peacefully while having multiculturalism, political correctness, general tolerance towards anything, but recent years have shown that this experiment is failing. It is not the western world that is asking their believers to kill infidels in their countries, it is not the western world that is asking their followers to bomb or poison cities... I could go on..

So I understand the willingness to be politically correct and civilized and advanced (hey its the 21 century), but like You said, watch out of the "stupid", it can blind You to reality.

I've been trying to get more people to check out Adam Curtis' 2004 documentary The Power of Nightmares . It describes the rise of the American neo-conservative movement in the United States and the rise of radical Islam in the Middle East, and dares to compare them, finding some striking similarities. Curtis' documentary describes how Sayyid Qutb was scandalized by what he experienced in America and what was happening in Egyptian society at the time, and was instrumental in re-planting the ancient seeds of ultra-orthodox 'Wahhabism' in modern times.

What we call "radical Islam" these days would be more appropriately described as "radical action to promote ultra-conservative Islam". In the 1950s, many places in the Middle East were becoming 'Westernized' as they were becoming 'modernized' --- two terms one cannot always use interchangeably --- in places very similar to the urbanization occurring in the US. Nothing communicates this more clearly than these photographs taken in Kabul. Ironically it was the US and USSR way by proxy starting in 1979 that set the country back, handing control to the victorious CIA-ISI-supported mujahideen.

Those who engage in such acts are murderous #s, and if they claim they are Muslim (for example) they should be fed to hogs.

To identify them directly with any religion, even if they are completely enthralled by it, is no favor to you. It elevates them and the religion more than either deserve. Yes some Muslims are assholes. Certainly not the family running the grocery store next door who gave me food and electricity when I had none. State sponsors of these terror groups, including our own CIA (through the Pakistani ISI) should also be held accountable for their actions --- not just by people who remember certain periods in history --- but everyone with the courage to stand up and demand answers to questions today. Like where exactly are the modern weapons and training support coming from? If our allies are involved, what is the true extent of the involvement? And how is Russia's involvement in Syria today similar to what happened in Afghanistan in 1980?

There are no easy answers. If you reach back far enough in time there aren't even any good guys.

Why do I fail to equate the tenets of any sect of Islam with any Middle Eastern country, including the newest one --- Europe?
Because I am an American and I believe in the separation of Church and State.

Why do I believe States should be held more accountable than Religions in sponsoring terrorism?
Because I am an American and I do not believe in the establishment of an official religion for anything at all.

originally posted by: RedParrotHead
The rational, thinking part of me whole-heartedly agrees with everything the OP stated...but then there's that other part of me. We've all read stuff like "Islamic teachings promote lying and deception as a means to defeat/convert/kill the enemy infidels" ... true or not I can't help that from creeping into my mind. Has the friendly muslim woman in the office across the hall been just pretending to be so nice to me for the last two years? Is the muslim guy downstairs seething internally every time we run in to each other and ask "how're your kids doing?" Maybe, could be...probably not. Probably not. Right?

That is just fear based paranoia. You have a better chance dying walking your doggie.

originally posted by: RedParrotHead
The rational, thinking part of me whole-heartedly agrees with everything the OP stated...but then there's that other part of me. We've all read stuff like "Islamic teachings promote lying and deception as a means to defeat/convert/kill the enemy infidels" ... true or not I can't help that from creeping into my mind. Has the friendly muslim woman in the office across the hall been just pretending to be so nice to me for the last two years? Is the muslim guy downstairs seething internally every time we run in to each other and ask "how're your kids doing?" Maybe, could be...probably not. Probably not. Right?

Honestly, that's just paranoia. Think of it like this: I'm a Muslim. My main political & economic goal is to create the ultimate hippie Socialist Utopia. This Utopia would be a safe haven where homelessness, food insecurity, lack of healthcare, bigotry, rape, domestic abuse & child abuse don't exist.

I want our tax dollars to stop funding wars and covert operations, and instead to build a smart energy grid, a high speed rail network, and a global network of desalination plants & water pipelines (to finally end droughts as we know them). Oh, and I'm in favor of legalizing maryjane, while promoting rehabilitation over imprisonment. And I push for actual women's rights to the point that I'm probably a feminist by definition (my best female friend says it's because I'm a perv lol- I neither confirm nor deny that).

But apparently none of that matters because some people will let my crescent moon necklace define me. And apparently some people (cough cough) will still consider me a potential terrorist, even though I try to educate people on the actual terrorists & their backers.

I suppose that in a political debate in society/ats in regards to how to handle a terrible situation the answer would be Delphi peoples opinion by using clout as owner then ban those who disagree and believe we need to go to war.

The attacks in Paris were very specific to "progressive" locations in the other areas of life I tend to be "very progressive" and still think it's time to escalate things. The stark reality I have been stating is that allowing in people from extreme religious backgrounds gives them numbers and a right to vote. I'm Liberal as a person can be, but not facing an enemy who will destroy the same freedoms you offer them in regards to daily life is NOT Liberal it's just plain stupid.

As the saying goes the Pen is mightier than the sword and the Pen is exactly what Laws are written with. Allowance of Fundamentalist thought in numbers into your society is your death, not by "terrorism" which any one with brains knows is always a "portion" of an extremist movement and "not everybody" but rather because it blatantly ignores what the group brings to bear within the body politic.

The "extremists" blew up bombs in progressive locations... The "refugees" will simply vote for those locations to not exist as they are. There is no real difference, there will be no "progressive" and no "liberal" if the demographics are swayed. In America Liberal just passed Conservative by a whopping 1% finally... YES a few Million new people with "Fundamentalist" ideas would sway it right back.

I personally am tired of the war on drugs, tired of oppression of women and homosexuals, tired of aggressive law and policing, tired of people who over populated who teach their kids "against" Science in a modern world, who censor and make decisions and policy based on religion.

I am absolutely against "bringing more" to any place that is going green and Sustainable and Progressive in thought and if we need to fight "one last" real war to stop this I say we should go for it... some blanket label of "ignorance" in regards to self preservation is not correct.

20 Million people went to Jail stateside in the "war on drugs" one might consider that a minor holocaust at the hands of "Ultra Conservatives" certainly there are more examples just here in the States. From actual Race issues to lifestyles this has been hard fought and in a Democracy only numbers matter.

a reply to: sosobad

Strong words.

The staff work off the T&Cs and action posts wherever we see them. It's not always as black and white as we'd like and decisions sometimes involve several mods and a few pages of discussion. It's also not always as black and white as members would like which is why we're frequently asking for members to *alert* posts they think cross the line.

This token bs thread offered up by the ats higher ups is nothing more than a falsehood show trying to look fair.

You're wrong there. The idea is to remind people that calling for genocides and internment camps is plain extremism and stupid.

Well said Skep!!

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Don't sweat it dude. Ignorance is rife in todays world. Most wouldn't even recognize a Muslim on the street. Most Muslims are Asian or Black.... not Arabic. Hell, after 911 here in Canada a Hindu temple was torched. Ignorance.

It is true, not all Muslims are extremist terrorists. This plays into the Syrian refugee crisis - a lot of states have stopped allowing in all Syrian refugees.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: sosobad

Strong words.

The staff work off the T&Cs and action posts wherever we see them. It's not always as black and white as we'd like and decisions sometimes involve several mods and a few pages of discussion. It's also not always as black and white as members would like which is why we're frequently asking for members to *alert* posts they think cross the line.

This token bs thread offered up by the ats higher ups is nothing more than a falsehood show trying to look fair.

You're wrong there. The idea is to remind people that calling for genocides and internment camps is plain extremism and stupid.

Strong words yes but I've never been one to mince words. A lot of members probably don't like me for it but I don't care. Some have had free reign to spill their hate on this forum well before any terrorist atrocity happened and it is absolutely disgusting. There is a undercurrent of hate here in ats.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Precisely!

IS do not represent Islam. They destroy holy places, kill Muslims and kill innocents.

The terrorists do not represent the Syrian refugees, who are also now under suspicion because of these murderers.

The IS terrorists are simply murderers, they have no cause to uphold or statement to make.

a reply to: Thill

You are aware that the US is currently engaged in military actions in seven different primarily Muslim nations currently? Right?

If you want proof of us bombing them, just turn on a TV.

a reply to: HocusLocus

EDIT TO ADD: I'm replying to this post, so there's no confusion lol. www.abovetopsecret.com...

That's a good answer. I've even had some Wahhabis tell me that it's not all Wahhabis who are doing this stuff. My family & I have had some really bad experiences with other Wahhabis and some of their wealthy members (remember, my Dad's an Imam), so I'm still skeptical of this.

But I've seen enough examples recently to start wondering if there are indeed different sub-sects of Wahhabis that are the actual aggressive ones. Perhaps even a secret society, cult, or hidden organization like their version of the Freemasons? I know the non-violent Wahhabis consider the violent ones "not true Wahhabis but Kharijites". But I won't know for myself unless I spend time completely immersed in Qatar & Saudi Arabia to find out (which I'm simply not willing to try).