So are masons the bad guys or the good guys?

a reply to: Jordan River

I used to wonder about all the stories of evil masons and secret evil stuff. But then I decided, the only way to find out is to join. So I did. Now I know and no longer have to guess. And to join, all I had to do is ask.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Jordan River

Masons are like Catholics, they're useful idiots. The top of the pyramid is where the secrets and evil plotting takes place, but the lower levels are all about maintaining the hopelessly plastic image of brotherly love.

Who is at the top of this "pyramid" of which you speak ? Since there is no ONE governing body of Freemasonry and each state has it's own Grand Lodge , answers to NO OTHER jurisdiction , then who are the evil plotting doers at the top ? I keep hearing this "top of the pyramid" , but no one can tell me who they are , where they are at or exactly what they do .

Let's use your "pyramid" analogy though ..... Sitting at the top of the pyramid would be the Grand Master of each jurisdiction (by state) in the US . He is the head high honcho , he answers to no one (but us , the members) , not the 33rd degree SR Masons , Not the KYCH YR Masons , not the Shrine , not the Grand Masters in any other jurisdiction around the world , NO ONE . He is democratically elected each year and serves a ONE YEAR TERM . The only title(s) that matters is that he is a Past Master and a Master Mason . All other titles and accolades are left outside the door .

Let's look at some of the Past Grand Masters of my jurisdiction ...

We had a man that owned a couple of used car lots .
We had a heating and air repairman .
We had a school teacher .
We had a pilot .
We had an assembly line worker .
We had a farmer .
We had a cattle rancher .
We had a few small business owners .

These are the men , all fine men by the way , who sat at the top of the "pyramid" in my jurisdiction . WOW , now there is a lot of powerful movers and shakers on that list , right !? Well , I guess you could say the used car salesman is evil , they will say anything to sell a car .

Then you have the Grand Line officers and the personal representatives of the Grand Master , the District Deputy Grand Masters (of which I was) . When I was on an official visit , only the Grand Master himself out ranked me .

Other than that , there is no other person over my jurisdiction . There is no group of Masons from anywhere in the world that has any say concerning the goings on in my jurisdiction .

So , knowing I will not receive an answer , who are these secretive evil doers at the top of the pyramid ? You made the accusation , please provide the proof .

originally posted by: network dude
And to join, all I had to do is ask.

You left out the part about the goat.

Do most consider masonry to be a religious institution?

I know they don't really practice a specific religion and that defining a religion isn't necessary.

However having to be "religious" to join tells me that it's, to some degree, a religious organization.

I don't understand the desire/need to exclude those good/hard working individuals looking to help a community because they lack a belief in a religious system.

originally posted by: MisterSpock

Do most consider masonry to be a religious institution?

No, because it is not.

However having to be "religious" to join tells me that it's, to some degree, a religious organization.

In Regular Masonry you are required to have a belief in a Supreme Being, not to be religious. If that were the case I would never have joined as I am not even remotely religious.

I don't understand the desire/need to exclude those good/hard working individuals looking to help a community because they lack a belief in a religious system.

They are not excluded.

Does everyone that studies at Yale are Skull and Bones? Obviously not.

Does every mason join the upper ranks? Obviously not.

Do lower masons know anything that's happening up there?
They know nothing, in fact, most don't even know there are higher ranks because that's what they are told. Need to know basis.

The only people that go up are the ones either or all, rich, with power, luciferian, in key positions or good pawns. Masons are like recuitment camp and individually they will never know who goes up in ranks, usually anything past Master mason. Master masons have no real knowledge if they didn't study outside of their lodge because it's a very secretive organization where they are bound to oaths to not reveal secrets.

So, we can't trust masons on ATS, none of them. They are either liars or ignorant. In fact, I wouldn't trust any other them to govern us because their oaths usually come before the population.

Many of them are great guys, but they will never know anything past the brothely aspects which is a perfect cover towards to population at large.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
In Regular Masonry you are required to have a belief in a Supreme Being, not to be religious.

I don't understand the desire/need to exclude those good/hard working individuals looking to help a community because they lack a belief in a religious system.

They are not excluded.

They are not excluded but they need to believe in a supreme being?

So atheists are excluded. So yes, you need to be a believer.

originally posted by: theMediator

They are not excluded but they need to believe in a supreme being?

So atheists are excluded. So yes, you need to be a believer.

But not religious, which was the question/comment.

originally posted by: theMediator
They know nothing, in fact, most don't even know there are higher ranks because that's what they are told. Need to know basis.

But somehow you seem to be aware. I do love irony, O. Henry would be impressed.

Master masons have no real knowledge if they didn't study outside of their lodge because it's a very secretive organization where they are bound to oaths to not reveal secrets.

The only thing I am not supposed to tell you is the five passwords and show you the five handshakes we use. These are in fact earth shattering secrets and I can see why it would upset you not to know.

a reply to: theMediator

That makes no sense what so ever ....

"We do not know about them" , "It's need to know basis" etc; etc; But for some unknown reason YOU KNOW all about them ?

How is it YOU are in the know , but we are in the dark ?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I know this has been touched on before by you, and I believe in response to a post I made in another thread regarding this topic.

I guess I'm just being "simple". But distilling something down as simple as I can I just don't come away with what you seem to be implying.

"In Regular Masonry you are required to have a belief in a Supreme Being"

www.merriam-webster.com...

From the link:
"believing in a god or a group of gods and following the rules of a religion"

www.merriam-webster.com...
"a person or thing of supreme value"

If being religious is required to be a member of a group, how does that not make the group religious to some degree?

I'm not trying a ascertain that degree, just merely trying to determine if it exists.

To me, it seems as if it does exist.

"They are not excluded."

If something is required(as you stated) and someone does not meet that requirement, then are they not(by definition) excluded?

If I go to a lodge, and when asked if I believe in a supreme being, respond that I do not. Would I be allowed to join?

originally posted by: MisterSpock
If being religious is required to be a member of a group, how does that not make the group religious to some degree?

I just said you are not required to be religious. How much simpler do you want me to make it?

I am not religious. As a matter of fact, I do not go to church and look very unfavorably at organized religion.

If I go to a lodge, and when asked if I believe in a supreme being, respond that I do not. Would I be allowed to join?

No, you will not. However if you say 'yes' there is no follow up question asking 'are you religious?'.

a reply to: whenandwhere

I don't know any names or faces. I just know they are the ones who know what time it really is: day, month, and year (today is the 7th month, 4th day, 6,123 years after Adam's fall).

Pope Gregory 13th was one of them. He commissioned the construction of his calendar to consolidate elements of the Mayan Tzolkin, the Babylonian Lunar calendar and the Paleo-Hebrew solar calendar.

I don't expect you to understand my reply. It will probably go over your head. If you need claridication, see my thread entitled, "The 12/21/2012 Red Herring".

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I guess our confusion must lie in what one defines religious as.

I view religious as someone who believes in a god or other deity.

According to Merriam-Webster,

Full Definition of RELIGIOUS
1: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity

Apparently being religious and believing in a deity are not the same as you are wording it.

originally posted by: MisterSpock
I view religious as someone who believes in a god or other deity.

That is your personal definition then and not the accepted one you posted.

According to Merriam-Webster,

Full Definition of RELIGIOUS
1: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity

Apparently being religious and believing in a deity are not the same as you are wording it.

No, they are not. I do not display 'faithful devotion', I simply have belief.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

The definition

relating to OR manifesting faithful devotion gives me the impression that they are both not a requirement.

Relating to an acknowledged ultimate deity.

I assume that someone doesn't have to be an active participant in their beliefs or the institutions of their beliefs to be religious, per the definition.

Once again, this is obviously the issue.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to use this classification(although minute) of Masonry as some form of proof or stepping stone to some other argument.

a reply to: MisterSpock

Here is what you posted:

believing in a god or a group of gods and following the rules of a religion

The 'and' is the critical part. Belief in a God without 'following the rules of religion' does not make you religious.

Not sure how many times I have to explain this, I am not religious. If that were one of the requirements I would not have joined nor would the Grand Lodge have allowed me to remain a member.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Your personal beliefs and classification aside, I don't understand why relating Masonry to religion(of whichever type) is such a big deal.

From the local lodges website:

Under requirements.

"BELIEF IN A SUPREME BEING. We need to be satisfied that you have such a belief. The Supreme Being in whom you put your trust, of course, will depend upon your own religious and philosophical beliefs. Each man’s truths are his own, and Freemasons, as an organization, hold absolutely no bias or preference toward one faith over another."

Religious and philosophical beliefs. It just seems contradictory to me to say that some form of belief is required but right after that it says that "Each man’s truths are his own, and Freemasons, as an organization, hold absolutely no bias or preference toward one faith over another."

To me, it just seems like having such a requirement, creates the ability for many(mostly those that would not meet said requirement) to view this organization as being religiously based. Not necessary a practicing or specific religion, but based in some small way non the less.

If they truly did not care, then whey even have that as a requirement?

originally posted by: MisterSpock
Religious and philosophical beliefs. It just seems contradictory to me to say that some form of belief is required but right after that it says that "Each man’s truths are his own, and Freemasons, as an organization, hold absolutely no bias or preference toward one faith over another."

Because for some strange reason only you can answer you seem to be conflating religion with belief or personal spiritualism.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

What benefit to the organization does this requirement give?

Why would the individual merits one have and the ability or desire to help the community be over ruled and placed at LESS of an importance to their belief in a deity?

Seems like such a large handicap(to the organization) if it is just a trivial matter.