So are masons the bad guys or the good guys?

originally posted by: noonebutme

originally posted by: MisterSpock
In these monotheism teachings, the belief that there is only one God, do they specify which one they are referring to?

But even THAT is in question these days, as in, *what* is one's definition of God?

I'm a MM and I do not believe in a God in the traditional sense. I believe in life and energy; we all come from the same thing and all return to it. That's my "High Power" or "Architect" of the universe.

It's simply about believing in something "greater" than yourself. At least, this is my take on it.

And hey - they still let me in!

I know from past threads, and posts of AugustusMasonicus, that they will take someone who believes in pretty much any form of higher power(hell they would probably take a roddenberry believer).

I just wonder why it even matters at all. With such a wide range of beliefs, why even make it a necessity. Allowing those that lack the ability to state a belief(even to themselves for that matter) would just be another drop in a large pool of diversity.

And with that(diversity), the other thing I wonder is from what angle is the masonic texts defining god. Surely they must have something to base even the simplest and vaguest of definitions.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: MisterSpock

One of my favorite quotes is from the Entered Apprentice lecture:

The greatest of these is Charity; for Faith is lost in sight, Hope ends in fruition, but Charity extends beyond the grave, through the boundless realms of eternity.

Thanks, I quite liked the message that portrays.

It seems rather devoid of belief though, meaning I don't see how one would require belief in order to understand(and hopefully act upon) that message. Which was really the point I was trying to make earlier with regard to the teachings.

Feel free to post anymore if you'd like.

originally posted by: MisterSpock
Which was really the point I was trying to make earlier with regard to the teachings.

Feel free to post anymore if you'd like.

I was under the impression you just wanted parts of any lesson. The main place where belief in a Supreme Being is required is during the Obligations.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: MisterSpock
Which was really the point I was trying to make earlier with regard to the teachings.

Feel free to post anymore if you'd like.

I was under the impression you just wanted parts of any lesson. The main place where belief in a Supreme Being is required is during the Obligations.

Obligations? Can you elaborate?

originally posted by: MisterSpock
Obligations? Can you elaborate?

All Masons take three Oaths revolving around their duties or obligations as Masons. These involve the invocation of Deity.

originally posted by: MisterSpock
I just wonder why it even matters at all. With such a wide range of beliefs, why even make it a necessity. Allowing those that lack the ability to state a belief(even to themselves for that matter) would just be another drop in a large pool of diversity.

I think (and I am not 100% sure on this as I've only been an MM for a few years), but it's about believing that you can improve yourself, make yourself a better person and demonstrate you have sincere wish to render yourself more extensively serviceable to your fellow creatures. I think, believing in a higher power indicates you know you are not perfect, you are not ideal or better than anyone else.

I could be completely wrong and no doubt it's also very much tied to the Bible as much of our text has heavy references to it.

originally posted by: noonebutme

originally posted by: MisterSpock
I just wonder why it even matters at all. With such a wide range of beliefs, why even make it a necessity. Allowing those that lack the ability to state a belief(even to themselves for that matter) would just be another drop in a large pool of diversity.

I think (and I am not 100% sure on this as I've only been an MM for a few years), but it's about believing that you can improve yourself, make yourself a better person and demonstrate you have sincere wish to render yourself more extensively serviceable to your fellow creatures. I think, believing in a higher power indicates you know you are not perfect, you are not ideal or better than anyone else.

I could be completely wrong and no doubt it's also very much tied to the Bible as much of our text has heavy references to it.

When you mean very much tied to the bible, what aspect of masonry are you talking about? Which bible are most of the references from?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: MisterSpock
Obligations? Can you elaborate?

All Masons take three Oaths revolving around their duties or obligations as Masons. These involve the invocation of Deity.

Thanks for elaborating on that.

a reply to: MisterSpock

I just mean that, when Masonry started, or apparently started (either late 1590's if true or early 1700s - there's no actual fixed date so far as I know), I believe the Bible was used for reference, and a lot of the imagery, poetry and verses from the Bible found their way into what is current Masonic ritual.

Why the Bible? I could only guess, if Masonry started in England as speculated, then the Bible would have been a very predominant text at the time, dating back nearly 1500 to 1700 years (give or take!) which would have had presence and authority at the time. Again, I'm speculating here - i don't actually know. There's several links on Ye Olde Internets, such as here

But, to the point AugustusMasonicus made previously, it isnt so much about any single deity - it's what matters to you and what you believe to be that power, entity, consciousness greater than yourself.

a reply to: MisterSpock

Where noonebutme explained his ideas on deity is very important. That is HIS thoughts and beliefs. The same lessons are taught to each mason and it's up to each individual mason to take that information and do with it what he wishes. He can think about it, talk to clergy, or talk to God while in a field. Whatever the individual wants. Which is why it's important for each mason to have his own belief in tact. And nobody tells you what to believe or even what to take away from each lesson. You are only explained why the lessons were given to you.

originally posted by: Jordan River
runned on masonary.

runned:
from Websters Dictionary:
no entry, non-existant word.
deny ignance.

I don't have any particular problem with Masonic beliefs. I am interested in ancient religions and esoteric things as well. We have freedom of speech and religion and that's a good thing.

However, it's clear that the ideas Masons are indoctrinated in are rooted in mysticism and ancient religious beliefs that predate Christianity . I don't think one would be hard pressed to make a case for idolatry in Masonic symbolism either - pillars with sun and moon gods is idolatry imo. Again, I'm not judging their beliefs only pointing out that the claims that Masonry isn't religious is false.

It also seems to be an odd contradiction that most Masons tend to be conservative protestants. I never hear Evangelicals speaking out against Masonry and they're upset about everything that isn't strictly from the literal text of the bible. It wouldn't be a bit surprised if most or all of the prominent Evangelical leaders are Masons that preach one thing to their congregations while hypocritically engaging in rituals and ceremonies based on idolatry and ancient mystery religions at the lodges. From what I was able to find, of the major religions, Catholics most discourage their members from joining Masonic organizations. A few protestant denominations do as well, but not as many as you would think.

I don't know about good vs. bad, but the deceptions and the lack of transparency in Masonry are negatives for me.

originally posted by: DannyTorrance
I don't think one would be hard pressed to make a case for idolatry in Masonic symbolism either - pillars with sun and moon gods is idolatry imo. Again, I'm not judging their beliefs only pointing out that the claims that Masonry isn't religious is false.

The two pillars do not have sun and moon gods. One is a map of the earth and the other is a map of the heavens. What is religious about maps?

It also seems to be an odd contradiction that most Masons tend to be conservative protestants. I never hear evangelicals speaking out against Masonry and they're upset about everything that isn't strictly from the literal text of the bible.

It tends to be evangelicals and Catholics who have the largest bugs up their asses regarding Masonry. You obviously have not looked into this. Try reading some of the threads in this forum.

I don't know about good vs. bad, but the deceptions and the lack of transparency in Masonry are negatives for me.

Deceptions? What are they?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Deceptions? What are they?

LOL -

The two pillars do not have sun and moon gods. One is a map of the earth and the other is a map of the heavens. What is religious about maps?

The sun and moon are always displayed next to or above the pillars. Your response demonstrates exactly what I mean by deception. Sun and Moon worship is common in pagan religions and it can also represent the dual male/female aspect of man in mysticism.

And look at the image i linked, they do sometimes have them on the pillars. Looks a lot like idolatry to me-

originally posted by: DannyTorrance

The sun and moon are always displayed next to or above the pillars. Your response demonstrates exactly what I mean by deception. Sun and Moon worship is common in pagan religions and it can also represent the dual male/female aspect of man in mysticism.

I just told you one is the earth and the other is the heavens (stars). Where do you get sun and moon from that?

From the Fellowcraft Lecture:

They were further adorned with two globes, or spherical bodies, on the surfaces of which were represented the countries, the seas and the various parts of the earth, the face of the heavens, the planetary orbits and other important particulars.

U gotta admit theres something sinister going on within masonry whether u choose to deny it or not.

Heres a video of a play with some young kids with masonic symolism...quite creepy

originally posted by: ElOmen

Heres a video of a play with some young kids with masonic symolism...quite creepy

That is an anti-Masonic museum display in Spain, it was already discussed here. You can obviously tell the 'kids' are mannequins.

originally posted by: ElOmen

U gotta admit theres something sinister going on within masonry whether u choose to deny it or not.

This still makes me smile after all these years. If I asked you how you felt about underwater welding and which techniques you felt yielded the best results, you would likely say something like, "I am not an underwater welder, therefore I have no opinion or knowledge of it", but with masonry, all sorts of folks who have little to no clue what it's actually about have all sorts of opinions.

Which part of the ritual specifically is sinister? Or is it in the business meetings?

a reply to: network dude

Which part of the ritual specifically is sinister? Or is it in the business meetings?

The sinister bit is the £25 for the meal and we don't even get dessert anymore!

Just cheese and biscuits... (grumble, grumble)

a reply to: noonebutme

Wow, I whole heartedly agree. We either order out, or cook ourselves, and charge $6 for the meal. I used to cook, but I stopped, when the reality set in that if you cook, you must clean up everything as well.

25 pounds for a meal, you should get a steak and lobster tail.