Alien conflicts

originally posted by: CallmeRaskolnikov now, i'd like to think that any civilization that's advanced enough to be space faring would also be advanced enough to resolve conflict in ways that are just as evolved as their technology. but, sadly i don't think that is always the case. as there are plenty of stories out there about warring factions vying for control of this little prison planet we call earth.

Yes, technologically advanced does not necessarily mean morally advanced.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Chuckles. Now you mention it, I have noticed Zeta's comments about hippies. Have either of you considered ignoring the other?

Yeah, I think its time to chill. I don't take anything personally and If I do, I am usually over it in a few hours if that. What I have come to realize is that forums like this is where people come to vent their personal garbage.

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Hey. Is that Janis in the avatar?

Who's the guy?

Yes, that is Janis and Pigpen. I came across it this morning and it reminded me of a very vivid lucid dream I had recently. And for the record, my personal views and my sense of humor about the dead scene have been expressed here and predate some users by a few years. So whatever

I had a Tequila-induced Janis encounter once.

who hasn't?

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: JackHill
For instance, there is no way explain how something can travel through walls by today's understanding.

One century ago it wasn't possible to know how modern computers work, or cellphones.

It means little when we look back at our own achievements thorugh time.

originally posted by: Scdfa
Folks, did you ever notice that they tell you far more outlandish, unprovable speculation all the time:
String Theory.

Math.

A quantum universe.

Math.

Multiple dimensions.

Math.

Dark matter. Dark energy.

Math.

These are far more speculative concepts, most entirely untestable.

Wrong and ignorant.

But when they talk about them on the news guess what?
Nobody laughs.

Because math.

These accepted theories are far less likely than contact with an alien race.

Because there is nothing which can be tested beyond stories which are the worst form of evidence in science.

Especially with thousands of newly discovered planets and Earth twins in the Goldilocks zone.

Which may or may not have life, which may or may not have intelligent life, which may or may not build spaceships. And even if they DID build spaceships and we somehow detected one way out in interstellar space none of that would amount to evidence that Whitley Streiber had little beings from Zeta Reticuli give him an anal probe in the 1980s.

Science does not take leaps of logic. It waits for evidence. You should try it.

But they only laugh at UFOs.
Why?

Because of stories which even when they are accompanied by decent corroborating physical evidence STILL finds the extraterrestrial explanation requiring a leap of logic.

Indoctrination.

One could just as easily say you've been indoctrinated as well. By UFOlogy and the "UFO community".

But most of that community fails at math.

originally posted by: JackHill

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: JackHill
For instance, there is no way explain how something can travel through walls by today's understanding.

One century ago it wasn't possible to know how modern computers work, or cellphones.

It means little when we look back at our own achievements thorugh time.

There are no physical laws of a century ago which have been overturned. They've just been augmented or added on to but that at least in the macro-world scale we exist in pretty much is over.

Physics has found most of the "low hanging fruit".

The main research in physics now is either at massive energies/pressures/densities (particle physics), extremely small scale (quantum physics) or extremely large scales (astrophysics with regards to cosmology and the structure of the universe).

In other words, it is highly unlikely we've missed something which would overturn classical Newtonian physics and Relativity. The same physical laws govern the entire universe and that's been widely proven so its not likely "they" would have some separate physics, they would be working with and around the same physical laws we work with and around, just with better technology.

originally posted by: CallmeRaskolnikov now, i'd like to think that any civilization that's advanced enough to be space faring would also be advanced enough to resolve conflict in ways that are just as evolved as their technology. but, sadly i don't think that is always the case. as there are plenty of stories out there about warring factions vying for control of this little prison planet we call earth.

Earth is one of anywhere from 60 BILLION to 200 BILLION similar worlds in our Milky Way Galaxy alone. Most of these worlds would probably be uninhabited.

Unless one intelligent space faring alien civilization exists every 10 light years or so then there are likely plenty of unoccupied lush places out there.

Fighting over the Earth in that context makes as much sense as fighting over a pebble on a beach.

And if aliens were really as close as 10 light years away we'd probably have plenty of good evidence of them by now or soon will after 2018.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: JackHill

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: JackHill
For instance, there is no way explain how something can travel through walls by today's understanding.

One century ago it wasn't possible to know how modern computers work, or cellphones.

It means little when we look back at our own achievements thorugh time.

There are no physical laws of a century ago which have been overturned. They've just been augmented or added on to but that at least in the macro-world scale we exist in pretty much is over.

Physics has found most of the "low hanging fruit".

The main research in physics now is either at massive energies/pressures/densities (particle physics), extremely small scale (quantum physics) or extremely large scales (astrophysics with regards to cosmology and the structure of the universe).

In other words, it is highly unlikely we've missed something which would overturn classical Newtonian physics and Relativity. The same physical laws govern the entire universe and that's been widely proven so its not likely "they" would have some separate physics, they would be working with and around the same physical laws we work with and around, just with better technology.

"Physics" is an EVOLVING science in an EVOLVING civilization. Eventually, thing like 'go through walls' will be explained. Like I said, ONE century ago people WON'T have an explanation for cellphones or modern computers, because simply they STILL didn't reach the level of necessary knowledge.

Being a person of 'science' as you claim to be, you're very little minded IMO.

originally posted by: deloprator20000
a reply to: Scdfa

How do you know there is "no" definitive proof? Do you have access to all possible data that could bear on the question? Nearly every study conducted regarding the possibility of Intelligent Aliens visiting earth has NOT concluded that they are NOT visiting earth. In fact some of the more serious ones give some interesting statistics that show that there may be something to such claims.

So please let us not make hasty, uninformed generalizations.

Spare me the pompous appeal to reason, I'm very well-informed on the subject of UFOs and alien contact, both through the published literature and through decades of direct alien contact starting in 1966. I could fill books with what you don't know about aliens.

Now as far as "definitive proof" goes, I doubt there is anything that would convince everybody, there are bound to be some deniers who can't deal with it, be they devout Christians or science worshippers.

You see, "proof" is entirely subjective in this circumstance; everyone has their own individual evidentiary level
for what they would consider to be proof. For many of us, the evidence has crossed that threshold. For many others like yourself, the evidence has not risen to your personal opinion of proof.

If everybody had the same evidentiary level of proof, there would be no argument in this thread or any other. We wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place, we would all be in agreement.
We are not in agreement.

But tell you what, ill humor you, why don't you tell us what would constitute "definitive proof"?
In your opinion, of course.

a reply to: JadeStar

One could just as easily say you've been indoctrinated as well. By UFOlogy and the "UFO community". But most of that community fails at math.

You're not fooling anyone, undergrad.

Your religious zealotry for science is a little frightening, and very much misplaced.

Science has failed you on the subject of UFOs and alien contact.
Actually, it has failed us all. Miserably so.

You tout the virtues of exobiologists, as if they ever uncovered a damn thing about the aliens that have been here for seventy years already.

What are they waiting for? Permission?

You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I'm in the real world, where science has failed the people.

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

originally posted by: JackHill

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: JackHill

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: JackHill
For instance, there is no way explain how something can travel through walls by today's understanding.

One century ago it wasn't possible to know how modern computers work, or cellphones.

It means little when we look back at our own achievements thorugh time.

There are no physical laws of a century ago which have been overturned. They've just been augmented or added on to but that at least in the macro-world scale we exist in pretty much is over.

Physics has found most of the "low hanging fruit".

The main research in physics now is either at massive energies/pressures/densities (particle physics), extremely small scale (quantum physics) or extremely large scales (astrophysics with regards to cosmology and the structure of the universe).

In other words, it is highly unlikely we've missed something which would overturn classical Newtonian physics and Relativity. The same physical laws govern the entire universe and that's been widely proven so its not likely "they" would have some separate physics, they would be working with and around the same physical laws we work with and around, just with better technology.

"Physics" is an EVOLVING science in an EVOLVING civilization. Eventually, thing like 'go through walls' will be explained. Like I said, ONE century ago people WON'T have an explanation for=cellphones or modern computers, because simply they STILL didn't reach the level of necessary knowledge.

Being a person of 'science' as you claim to be, you're very little minded IMO.

Actually people a century ago knew quite a bit about electromagnetism and the electromagnetic spectrum and it was the era where the beginnings of Einstein's relativity were known and debated within academic circles. Electronic computers were theorized and vacuum tubes were doing basic computing within a decade. Radio was also being used for communication. Combining it with telephony had made its way into engineering papers of the early 1910s so.......

Analogy fail.

Try googling "1915 Year in Science" next time...

I get your general point, but you missed mine. Nothing we've learned in the last 100 years has replaced anything we've known before to the point of physics breaking down and having to start all over again which is part of what would be required to believe many UFO claims.

Even Arthur C. Clarke's quote of a "sufficiently advanced technology appearing as magic" still requires it to adhere to the laws of physics.

originally posted by: Scdfa
a reply to: JadeStar

One could just as easily say you've been indoctrinated as well. By UFOlogy and the "UFO community". But most of that community fails at math.

You're not fooling anyone, undergrad.

May I ask what you earned your degree in?

(tl;dr broken record "science has failed" rubbish deleted...")

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

a reply to: JadeStar

In other words, it is highly unlikely we've missed something which would overturn classical Newtonian physics and Relativity. The same physical laws govern the entire universe and that's been widely proven so its not likely "they" would have some separate physics, they would be working with and around the same physical laws we work with and around, just with better technology.

See folks, it's empty, unfounded proclamations like this that reveal how little jadestar really understands.

The hubris, the unjustified pride she has in our current scientific understanding is a delusion of grandeur.

Do any of you think that we, now, here on Earth, have reached the galactic pinnacle of scientific knowledge?

Out of the trillions of worlds that surround us, no beings have surpassed us?

There are worlds with a five billion year head start on us, can any of you actually believe the scientific development of all those world must have stopped at our current level of space travel?

And we do have space travel, right, jadestar? Only in your opinion, we're the best at it in the entire galaxy.

Folks, what do you think the odds are, that the ultimate limit of space travel in the entire galaxy was reached right here on Earth, right at the same time this girl went to college?

And all she has to do to believe that is ignore the entire history of scientific development to this point, and what it augurs for our future development and discoveries?

Basically, her argument is that "aliens aren't here because we can't go there."

That argument is specious, and thin as tissue paper, and frankly, it isn't the position of an intelligent mind.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

Yep. Captain panties.

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: moth115
Do you think that it would be likely that different types of alien visiting Earth would have disagreements?

As no aliens are visiting, how could they disagree?
First some evidence that aliens are visiting would be good!

In case you hadn't notice the guy said if, ect. In other words it's speculation. This is the crap that gives you skeptics a bad name, you won't even allow people to discuss what if scenarios, or share ideas on that which might be possible. At no point in the OP was it stated for a fact that aliens were visiting ect, simply a hypothetical on the possibilities.

Stop screaming proof every time someone wants to discuss the possibilities of aliens, or the possibilities of what they may be like, or how they might interact.

This isn't a proof thread, it's a speculation thread.

I swear, it gets worse every day... Fricken bullies.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

So take my challenge.
Show me one scientist or exobiologist that has provided as much information about the aliens as Budd Hopkins has.

Good luck, undergrad. I'll wait right here for your answer.

Come on, blind me with science.

originally posted by: Scdfa
a reply to: JadeStar

In other words, it is highly unlikely we've missed something which would overturn classical Newtonian physics and Relativity. The same physical laws govern the entire universe and that's been widely proven so its not likely "they" would have some separate physics, they would be working with and around the same physical laws we work with and around, just with better technology.

See folks, it's empty, unfounded proclamations like this that reveal how little jadestar really understands.

The hubris, the unjustified pride she has in our current scientific understanding is a delusion of grandeur.

Delusions of grandeur? Look in the mirror.... You laughed at me being an undergrad but you never said what you were. What credentials you have, etc.

And your field is loaded with failures who are self-appointed experts in aliens and some of them are also expert psychics, ghost hunters you name it.. Look at who MUFON keeps on their staff, etc....

No academic work needed. Just imagine your title and be it. No need for math or evidence even. Its all a show, a game or hobby.

It's a joke with no policing mechanism so it's full of nonsense like the "Roswell Slides" and Steven Greer's "Invisible Aliens".

Sorry dude but I'm not going to throw the last 1,000 years of science out simply "because some one saw some thing in the sky they couldn't identify" and others have similar stories. There's a whole ocean between an unidentified flying object and an extraterrestrial visitation scenario.

Mind the gap.

And I never said we know everything. Why would science be necessary if we did?

There's a TON about our universe we haven't the foggiest clue about (which is why astrophysics and related fields exist) but those things do not typically undermine the stuff we DO know and are well tested. I could tell you how we know what we know but I fear a lot would go over your head or you'd ignore it. Wasted effort, wasted time.

People like you often didn't understand basic science in the first place. How am I to expect you to understand that there are things we know with some degree of certainty? You couldn't even spell hypothesis correctly.

I'm kinda done with responding to you. I can not be, nor will I ever be your 4th grade science teacher.

Our conversations are unproductive.

It's arguing against someone who has no idea what confirmation bias is.

Waste of time, wasted effort.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

So take my challenge.
Show me one scientist or exobiologist that has provided as much information about the aliens as Budd Hopkins has.

Good luck, undergrad. I'll wait right here for your answer.

Come on kitten, blind me with science.

Show me one thing Budd Hopkins supposedly "revealed" about aliens which could be independently proven by science.


I'd call you an old man but that would be demeaning.... to old wise men.