Yahweh 1 - The Son in Rebellion Against His Father (Genesis 1-4)

originally posted by: OmegaStone
There is no proof that Yahweh created the serpent in Genesis. Many people believe only one god created all life on the planet, but no statement in the bible says that all living organisms came from Yahweh. There are obvious holes in the creation story. For example, on what day did Yahweh create the starfish, the mosquito, or the bat?

(Revelation 4:11) “You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”

a reply to: AlephBet

What you fail to understand is that the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 is cryptic. It states:

(Genesis 3:15) And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”


Jehovah was not speaking to the literal snake here, nor was he cursing the literal snake. The snake is Satan the Devil. You may say that nowhere in Genesis does it state that Satan the Devil used the snake to talk to Eve.

But there are a couple of things you should be aware of. One, snakes do not talk. So it is obvious that a spirit creature used the snake to deceive and lie to Eve. Two, the Bible does in fact state that the snake is Satan the Devil:

(Revelation 12:9) So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.


The offspring of Satan the Devil would be religious leaders and other opposers of Jehovah God and his witnesses. Notice how Jesus bares this fact out very succinctly to the religious hypocrites of the Jews:

(John 8:44) You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.


Yes, the father of those religious frauds, the Scribes and Pharisees was Satan the Devil. They made up part of the seed of the serpent, of Satan the Devil. He was their father, just as he is the father of all those who oppose Jehovah God and his witnesses.

There are many of that seed of the serpent on this board itself.

The woman in prophecy is NOT Eve. She may have thought that she was and that is why she named her firstborn son Cain, meaning "Something Produced." And she said, after having birthed him:

(Genesis 4:1) . . .When she gave birth to Cain, she said: “I have produced a male child with the help of Jehovah.”


The woman is Jehovah's celestial organization and the seed of the woman is the foretold Messiah:

(Galatians 3:16) . . .. It does not say, “and to your descendants,” in the sense of many. Rather, it says, “and to your offspring,” in the sense of one, who is Christ.


The foretold Messiah who is Jesus Christ was the foretold seed of the woman, coming from the heavenly realms above, as God's first creation, and a spirit son of God before emptying his heavenly body and being born a human child.

Also, there are 144,000 others who make up a part of the seed. They are all bruised in the heel by Satan the Devil, because he persecutes and kills as many of them as he can.

The woman of the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 is the same woman in Revelation 12:

(Revelation 12:1, 2) . . .: A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, 2 and she was pregnant. And she was crying out in her pains and in her agony to give birth.


This woman, God's celestial organization gave birth to the kingdom, Jesus' governmental rule in the heaven. Satan cast down to the earth where he wages war against the remaining seed of the woman (the remainder of the 144,000 who are still alive on earth today):

(Revelation 12:17) . . .And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.

originally posted by: PreacherCreature

"Elohim" is a common name for "God"
They are one and the same.

Elohim, is not a name. It is a title. The Bible even uses this title to refer to humans, and even to things such as the belly:

(John 10:34-36) . . .: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called “gods” those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

(Philippians 3:19) . . .Their end is destruction, and their god is their belly, and their glory is really their shame, and they have their minds on earthly things.


Nowhere in the Bible is the term god used exclusively for Jehovah, nor is it a name. It is a title, just as lord and Mister are titles.

Jehovah is a proper name, and the true God's only name:

(Exodus 3:15) . . .This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.


In many Bibles they have removed God's personal name (which he inspired to be written into the scriptures over 7,000 times). They have replaced it with the titles LORD and GOD. In fact whenever you see those two titles in all capital letters, it is a sly way of the publishers of that Bible to tell you, we removed God's name and replaced it with these titles.

a reply to: iSomeone

forgive me for my typo, i meant to write common title as you will see i have edited..

"Elohim" is a common title for "God"
"Yahweh" is a proper name for "God"

They are one and the same.

And if you quoted me fully will see that i have agreed "yahweh" or "YHWH" aka "Jehovah" is a proper name for "God". Point being they are the same not seperate.

a reply to: iSomeone

If you could step back a moment, and view this from the perspective I have shown, you would see how this all fits together by the names. Elohim is the Father. Ruach Elohim is the Spirit of God (Feminine). Yahweh is the Son of God who formed Adam, listed as such in Luke 3.

You quoted this verse:

(John 10:34-36) . . .: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called “gods” those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

You are actually referring to Psalm 82. Again, who is Elohim here:

1 Elohim takes his place in his own assembly.
He pronounces judgment among the gods:
2 “How long are you going to judge unfairly?
How long are you going to side with wicked people?” Selah

3 Defend weak people and orphans.
Protect the rights of the oppressed and the poor.
4 Rescue weak and needy people.
Help them escape the power of wicked people.

5 Wicked people do not know or understand anything.
As they walk around in the dark,
all the foundations of the earth shake.
6 I said, “You are gods.
You are all sons of Elyon.
7 You will certainly die like humans
and fall like any prince.”

8 Arise, O Elohim!
Judge the earth, because all the nations belong to you.

Yahweh does not own the nations. Elohim, his Father holds the nations. Nowhere here is Yahweh mentioned. He demanded worship of the nation of Israel and proclaimed himself God with none beside him. You must see that the New Testament does not have even one mention of Yahweh, but instead has Jesus pointing back to the Father as a humbled Son. This is Yahweh repenting and paying the price for the fall of mankind. If you look at this as the Trinity being all three members, then all verses in the NT suddenly make sense. You can then go back to the Names of God Bible and note how Yahweh is constantly at odds with Elohim.

Your many way to see this is from this verse:

Genesis 9

9 Elohim blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fertile, increase in number, and fill the earth. 2 All the wild animals and all the birds will fear you and be terrified of you. Every creature that crawls on the ground and all the fish in the sea have been put under your control. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be your food. I gave you green plants as food; I now give you everything else.

4 “But you are not to eat meat with blood in it. (Blood is life.) 5 In addition, I will demand your blood for your life. I will demand it from any animal or from any person. I will demand the life of any person who kills another person.

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

Who motivated Israel to take the blood of humans continuously? Yahweh. Elohim prohibited it.

a reply to: AlephBet

What you can know for sure, somebody is here and ready to remove these beings from existence, for as far back as the first "fall" they have been KNOWINGLY causing everything to be in a constant state of foolishness, for their gains.

They will not and cannot survive, despite the claims that they cannot die.

It is time to show them that indeed they CAN, and that they oh so desperately want too.

a reply to: AlephBet

The holy Ghost is never used in the feminine verb in the Greek. So how did you translate it as mother?

a reply to: AlephBet




Hello AlephBet, and may Peace be upon you!

It is great that you are working with the "Names of God Bible." It is the easiest and most direct means to discover that there is a pantheon of deities in the Bible, instead of a singular God.


1. The Old Testament uses the same names as deities of the Canaanite religion.

2. Judaism developed in the land of the Canaanite religion.

3. The stories of the Old Testament parallel the stories of the Canaanite and Sumerian religions.


Because of these 3 points, it is only logical to refer to the Canaanite and Sumerian religions to better understand the many deities found in the Old Testament.

I mentioned that Yahweh is Marduk,... Elohim is the triad of An (Elyon), Enlil (El), and Ea (or the Assembly/Host of the Gods),... and that Enki is the adversary (satan) to Enlil (El) in this post Here.





It is my opinion that you have misunderstood Genesis 3.

Genesis 1 states that "Elohim" (An/Enlil/Ea -or- Assembly/Host of the Gods) created all of the animals of the earth. This is the work of "Elohim" not the work of "Yahweh."

In the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Genesis, we see the phrase; "Yahweh Elohim". As mentioned in previous posts:

The phrase "Yahweh Elohim" refers to Marduk's official succession of his father Enki, where Marduk takes on the attributes and powers of his father Enki.

"Yahweh Elohim" refers to instances where Yahweh absorbs older actions of Elohim,.... Marduk absorbs older actions of Anu, Enki, and Enlil.

Enki was responsible for the creation of Adam/Adapa. Where Enki was the original creator of man, Marduk absorbs the story as his own, thus giving us the clue; "Marduk-Enki", aka "Yahweh Elohim".

Yahweh's name was added and edited into the events and stories,... thus, illustrating the succession and usurpation of Marduk over Enki and Enlil, and also illustrating the theological differing of the worshippers of El (Elohists, Elism) versus the worshippers of Yahweh (Jahwists, Yahwists).

Here, again, is the verse in question:
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals Yahweh Elohim had made." (Genesis 3:1)


Firstly, it was "Elohim" that created the animals.

Secondly, "Yahweh" was an edited addition placed in front of "Elohim," which illustrates Yahweh's usurpation of "Elohim," and also illustrates the struggle between Elohists/Elism versus Jahwists/Yahwists.


Thirdly, compare your conclusions of Genesis 3:1 to the following example: "The BigMac was more delicious than any of the burgers that Burger King had made."

The BigMac is a burger that comes from McDonald's, and stands as a comparative contrast to the burgers that Burger King made.



Belonging to the same sentence does not mean belonging to the same essence. Here is a perfect example from Islam's Qur'an:

And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblis (Shaytan/Satan). He was not of those who prostrated.
Qur'an 7:11

Here, by superficial appearance, it seems that Iblis/Shaytan/Satan is an angel. However, it is mentioned by Allah and Muhammad that Iblis/Shaytan/Satan is actually a Jin. Satan the Jin was merely present amongst the angels, although he was not an angel.

The same can be said about Genesis 3; the Serpent (Ea/Enki) was merely being contrasted against the rest of Elohim's wild and created creatures.

originally posted by: AlephBet

Firstly thanks for an entertaining and interesting original post and subsequent discussion. Most of what I want to discuss at first here pertains to your original posting in the thread. (And I suppose I should get out of the way that I'm not going to bring up the standard Documentary Hypothesis--the dual-source explanation for the differing titles for God and the often contradictory information associated with them--other than to say I assume you're familiar with, and have considered/dismissed, it, accordingly.)

One question I have is what you think of the idea that, 'of course God created possible temptations for us in the world, but this is precisely because God imbued humanity with free will to choose his spiritual path, unlike angels and lesser animals, for example?' Doesn't this explain away the evils made by God's hand, you point out, with the gift of true freedom?

Also, your discussion about story of Cain and Able and the suitable-or-unsuitable menu options outlined by God sparked a thought I hadn't had before. I notice the verses you quote seem to say that MAN is not to eat any meat. However, it doesn't say that GOD can't. So with respect to the the sacrifices of Cain and Able, maybe Cain was rebuked for feeding God mere 'human food' (i.e. plants), whereas Able was praised for serving up the exclusive 'food of the gods' (meat). I also, find it interesting that this reminds me of a lot I've read about other ancient Near-Eastern religions (Sumerian, etc.), which tend to see man as being created merely to serve the needs of the gods. This idea sort of fits with God demanding the sacrifice of things which man, himself, is not allowed to consume.

originally posted by: AlephBet
4 “But you are not to eat meat with blood in it. (Blood is life.) 5 In addition, I will demand your blood for your life. I will demand it from any animal or from any person. I will demand the life of any person who kills another person.

And on top of all that, the above verse could further affirm exactly that (which I stated above). Under this line of thought, God is saying, "In return for the gift of life (blood) I gave you, you must repay life (blood) to me." Of course here man would essentially be replacing his own blood (life), with that of the sacrificed livestock, (I guess) so that he can continue to supply the sustaining life-blood God needs (which obviously requires a still-living person to carry out).


As the above ended up taking way longer than I expected so I'll stop here for now. Just some thoughts that came to mind while reading through the posts in this thread tonight...

I was also going to bring up/ask about the connections between your ideas here about the competing and conflicting deities and Gnosticism's ideas of the demiurge and the 'ultimate, benevolent' god-being versus the lesser flawed/ignorant one(s), and their various roles in creation and salvations and all that good stuff. I ask because your interpretations around the various names of god put forth in this thread would seem to be ripe such a Gnostic perspective.

Anyway, regardless of all the haters, your ideas have set off plenty of sparks in my mind, so keep up the interesting work!

Peace,
elo

a reply to: AlephBet

Hello sir and thank you for a fascinating thread!

I'm wondering if you've ever read the Hidden Hand material? It was actually a thread here on ATS some time ago and some of the history put forth by Hidden Hand seems to parallel some of the ideas that you're working with here.

If you haven't, here is a link for your perusal-

The Hidden Hand Material

I'd give a short synopsis, but not only is it late and I must be toddling off to bed soon, I also see that you are quite good at reading and researching things on your own, and I wouldn't want to muddy your interpretation with my own interjections. That said, if I may add a small tidbit to pique your interest, this Hidden Hand fellow claims to be directly channeling and speaking for Lucifer itself, and does so quite eloquently in my estimation.

Are the ideas espoused in therein compatible with your understanding of God and reality? Would you dispute any claims made? Is it all a clever ruse to deceive us? How say you now?

a reply to: eloheim

Peace be with you eloheim. I quite enjoyed your post. The OP's research, threads, and posts are thought-provoking.

AlephBet has made beautiful contributions discussing alternate understandings of the Bible. He has also illustrated the master craftsmanship of Hebrew word usage in the Bible.

When the Hebrew words are dissected,... when the letters are defined by individual meaning,... when the pictorial representations are considered,... we are left with a Bible illustrating a masterful genius who uses the strength of literary Hebrew, as a samurai wields a sword with expertise.

I quite enjoy AlephBet's contributions, and I look forward to future discussion.





As AlephBet has mentioned in many instances, have you noticed that the Hebrew titles and names of God actually interact with each other and talk to each other in the Old Testament? This proves, without any other research, that the Old Testament illustrates a polytheistic pantheon.

Consider that the Old Testament rebukes, directly by name, deities of the Canaanite pantheon,.... consider that the names and titles of God in the Old Testament interact with each other,... consider that these names and titles of God are the actual names of separate deities of the older Canaanite pantheon,...

The Old Testament sprang root directly from the older Canaanite religion,... and only through time and politics has Yahweh reigned sovereign and supreme over all of the other Canaanite gods.

Discussing the Canaanite roots of the Old Testament is not taking away the knowledge, information, wisdom, and esoteric encoding of the Bible. It is a marriage of the two; A cross-domain understanding of the titles and names of God in the O.T., and the understanding of the esoteric and metaphysical concepts of the Bible.


Catch ya later. Peace.

originally posted by: guitarplayer
a reply to: AlephBet

The holy Ghost is never used in the feminine verb in the Greek. So how did you translate it as mother?

The mother is assumed. Father, Son and... Complete that sentence with Holy Spirit, but we know the Spirit of God is feminine. Mother is Latin Mater, or Matrix, Matter. Ruach is feminine and is the Spirit of God, or Ruach Elohim.

a reply to: Sahabi

Thank you for that. I had begun to wonder if anyone was getting any of this. It's a large territory and I assume this is why many people do not have a personal map to see the broader story.

a reply to: ExquisitExamplE

I will take a look and let you know.

a reply to: ExquisitExamplE

I looked at it. It's false. He made predictions that were not at all accurate. I stopped at the predictions.

a reply to: eloheim

One question I have is what you think of the idea that, 'of course God created possible temptations for us in the world, but this is precisely because God imbued humanity with free will to choose his spiritual path, unlike angels and lesser animals, for example?' Doesn't this explain away the evils made by God's hand, you point out, with the gift of true freedom?

In asking the question, keep in mind that 'God' in your own mind may be a different picture than what you would read if you knew the full story according to the Trinity of the family (Father, Mother Son). Father and Mother are one. Son is being raised. God (Father/Mother) cannot tempt. They do not create evil and their will is to give and receive. Any other named entity in the book that takes is not following the will of God the Father. That is the first set paradigm that changes your presuppositions as you turn your mind a few times on this topic. Second, the Genesis 1 creation is the world to come. There are no corporal bodies and no pain, suffering or sin. The creation you are living in is the corporal creation of the Mother's womb. We are in that matrix of development now. We are entangled to our Angel in the other world to come. The righteous robe (body) and crown (mind) there is developed here, but never in a state of imperfection. The unrighteous you here will perish.

If you reset your thinking according to a correct presupposition, you then no longer need to ask the question. A higher order of thinking resolves the need for the answer.

a reply to: eloheim

I believe that Genesis 2 states that Yahweh created Adam to tend the garden.

15 Then Yahweh Elohim took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to farm the land and to take care of it. 16 Yahweh Elohim commanded the man. He said, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden. 17 But you must never eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because when you eat from it, you will certainly die.”

On eating meat. Elohim allowed it after the flood.

Chapter 9

3 Everything that lives and moves will be your food. I gave you green plants as food; I now give you everything else.

4 “But you are not to eat meat with blood in it. (Blood is life.) 5 In addition, I will demand your blood for your life. I will demand it from any animal or from any person. I will demand the life of any person who kills another person.

This is also where he prohibited the shedding of blood from man to man. Yahweh disregards this until the bitter end of the Old Testament. He is the reason blood was shed so much. Any number of examples on his part could have taught mankind to avoid shedding blood, but instead, his is the example that was followed from the top down.

Elohim was very clear above.

originally posted by: AlephBet
The mother is assumed. Father, Son and... Complete that sentence with Holy Spirit, but we know the Spirit of God is feminine. Mother is Latin Mater, or Matrix, Matter. Ruach is feminine and is the Spirit of God, or Ruach Elohim.

Can you say why you believe this?

I believe that four of the seven Spirits are feminine and three are masculine.

This is from Ian Clayton, John Paul Jackson, and Neville Johnson's experience.

All three teachers individually arrived at the same conclusion.

The positional aspect of all the Spirits:

• Spirit of the Lord – (Masculine) Mandates us for position.
• Spirit of Wisdom – (Feminine) Equips us for position.
• Spirit of Understanding – (Feminine) Authorizes us for position.
• Spirit of Counsel – (Feminine) Prepares us for position.
• Spirit of Might – (Masculine) Reveals us for position.
• Spirit of the Fear of God – (Masculine) Seals us for position.
• Spirit of Knowledge – (Feminine) Empowers us for position.

All together they: Mandate, equip, authorize, prepare, reveal, seal, and empower us for position. Don’t think of it an order, as “I’ll get to learn from the Spirit of the Lord, then I’ll get to learn from the Spirit of Wisdom”, but instead understand the Kingdom mind-set of Relationship with them. When you have relationship with one, there is no way that you can’t have relationship with another because they all love each other dearly! Always seek relationship with them; there is no other way to get to know them or learn from them.

7 Spirits of God

These 7 Spirits are separate spirits who are in the throne room of God. They are additional spirits to the Holy Spirit. These are our tutors (teach/instruct) in the realms of the kingdom, to present us in the courts of the king in his mountain as mature mandated sons of God. When we have learned all we need to, then God can release us to bring his kingdom to every stratosphere of the kingdom he has set up. This sets up God's nature and light in us. When you manifest all of these, you emit white.

These spirits search to and fro on the earth for men willing to be tutored. They seal us for position, by the ring of the Father. They declare "mature son". They give us a throne. Jesus fully functioned in all these spirits. When Jesus was transfigured, he was a mature son, and was revealed in white. He was glorified - and he had the manifestation of all 7 spirits in him, fully acknowledged as the Son. The 7 spirits manifest the nature of God and his kingdom. We are tutored, equipped, and mandated in our spirit man to become a mature son. This is God's Education System. This whole system is based on spirits educating us. These are teachers. They come to teach us. Teachers under greater teachers under greater teachers under God.

They reveal the kingdom of the fullness of God in us to earth, and likewise present us in the kingdom. Their purpose is to show us how to take the earth back from the hands of the enemy.

These 7 spirits are referred to in Isaiah, Revelation, and something Paul wrote. 7 lamps burning - another mystery to explore

These spirits, according to Ian, are Throne Room and heavenly personalities. I have written about the 7 Spirit nature of the Holy Spirit, and these are different and their nature is unchanged by this new data. The Holy Spirit manifests as the above 7. He manifests as an additional 7.

John Paul Jackson also teaches about the 7 Spirits. He says these are the Spirits of the Holy Spirit. He identified the same ones. All three teachers received teaching alone, not in group revelation, and they all say the same thing. That accounts for something.

The Seven Spirits of God

This teaching is a huge box-breaking mind-bender that will challenge all of your previous notions of God the Father and the Spirit of Wisdom as depicted in the Bible. If the Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom, what is Wisdom itself? What does it lead to? How do you obtain it? What do you do once you get it? How do you engage with it? Or is it literally a ‘her’? Have you ever wondered about the Spirit of Wisdom? When we read about her in Proverbs, we think about her as a notion, or a mindset, or a gift. But, could she be more? Could she actually be a heavenly being of some sort? Can we engage with her? What would happen if we did engage with her?

Who is the Spirit of Wisdom

Ian Clayton - Spirit of Wisdom

I find the gospel of Judas to be an appropriate contextual source for certain aspects of theory. Interesting interpretations so far.

SCENE 1:
"Jesus dialogues with his disciples: The prayer of thanksgiving or the eucharist One day he was with his disciples in Judea, and he found them gathered together and seated in pious observance. When he [approached] his disciples, [34] gathered together and seated and offering a prayer of thanksgiving over the bread, [he] laughed. The disciples said to [him], “Master, why are you laughing at [our] prayer of thanksgiving? We have done what is right.” He answered and said to them, “I am not laughing at you. are not doing this because of your own will but because it is through this that your god [will be] praised.” They said, “Master, you are [...] the son of our god.” Jesus said to them, “How do you know me? Truly [I] say to you, no generation of the people that are among you will know me.”

THE DISCIPLES BECOME ANGRY
"When his disciples heard this, they started getting angry and infuriated and began blaspheming against him in their hearts. When Jesus observed their lack of [understanding, he said] to them, “Why has this agitation led you to anger? Your god who is within you and [...] [35] have provoked you to anger [within] your souls. [Let] any one of you who is [strong enough] among human beings bring out the perfect human and stand before my face.” They all said, “We have the strength.” But their spirits did not dare to stand before [him], except for Judas Iscariot. He was able to stand before him, but he could not look him in the eyes, and he turned his face away. Judas [said] to him, “I know who you are and where you have come from. You are from the immortal realm of Barbelo. And I am not worthy to utter the name of the one who has sent you.”

Gospel of Judas

I find this topic fascinating....

I have often wondered how "God" (in the generic sense that most evangelicals consider him) could be so different (sometimes appearing to be a petulant bully) in the tribal warring passages of the OT, from the "father" that Jesus describes in the NT.

A friend of mine who studied religion in college got pretty deep into the language, and said that in one translation, that the story of Isaac and Jacob is quite telling. If I remember right (it's been several years ago that we talked about this) that Yah commanded the sacrifice of Jacob, and a servant of El stayed the hand of Isaac. It could have been vice versa, I really don't remember. The point is that there was a conflict between two seemingly similarly powerful entities over the fate of Jacob on that mountain.

Then there is the concept within Kabbalah of Ein Sof, or the infinite one, the ultimate creator of all things. Some of this stuff is too lofty it seems, especially as I try to break out of my evangelical conditioning as to how to interpret scripture.