Arizona-9 Year old girl kills gun instructer

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: alldaylong

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: alldaylong



You don't have to worry about that. As a Libertarian, I don't like telling other people how to live their lives and that they can't do something that they want to do as long as it doesn't harm me or someone else; unlike you. I certainly don't like telling other countries how to run their countries. I'm not a citizen of those countries so I have no business telling them how to run them. If you knew anything about my posting history, you'd know that what I speak is the truth.

Your hypocrisy astounds me.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Again, I said that thread was about me saying that the US needs to cut aid to Israel. I certainly have a say in where my country sends the tax money it collects from me. Seriously, read the thread and what I said in it. Since the US is involved in Israel's affairs already, I can have an opinion on the matter (which is to stop interfering in their affairs). Meanwhile Britain has ZERO leg in the gun debate here in the United States. Grasping at straws... You clearly don't have a point anymore so you have stooped to character assassination against me. Such high brow debate tactics there, boy.

Well if you can't see it, then that's your problem and not mine.

originally posted by: alldaylong

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: alldaylong

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: alldaylong



You don't have to worry about that. As a Libertarian, I don't like telling other people how to live their lives and that they can't do something that they want to do as long as it doesn't harm me or someone else; unlike you. I certainly don't like telling other countries how to run their countries. I'm not a citizen of those countries so I have no business telling them how to run them. If you knew anything about my posting history, you'd know that what I speak is the truth.

Your hypocrisy astounds me.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Again, I said that thread was about me saying that the US needs to cut aid to Israel. I certainly have a say in where my country sends the tax money it collects from me. Seriously, read the thread and what I said in it. Since the US is involved in Israel's affairs already, I can have an opinion on the matter (which is to stop interfering in their affairs). Meanwhile Britain has ZERO leg in the gun debate here in the United States. Grasping at straws... You clearly don't have a point anymore so you have stooped to character assassination against me. Such high brow debate tactics there, boy.

Well if you can't see it, then that's your problem and not mine.

Oh I see your point. It's a stretch and hyperbole, but I see it.

you dont teach kids how to use a chainsaw, a tree cutter, a tractor, explosives anything like that.

why would you give a kid a sub machine gun?

you dont want a kid having a lethal weapon like that AND knowing how to use it.

sorry but i think less info is better than teaching how to use it and be safe.

STAY AWAY FROM IT its a machine gun, yes be safe but just dont go near it, you could kill yourself. its not rocket surgery, this is a lethal weapon and you can hurt yourself and others you dont touch this. great tell them how to be safe ive no problem with that, but dont allow actual access or anything close to itb

This is less of a "gun issue" and more of an "idiot issue".

The parents, the range and the instructor all failed. A man is dead and a little girl has potentially been scarred emotionally for life.

Idiots.

I feel bad for the man's family, but I reserve most of my feelings for an innocent nine year old who thought she was in safe hands.

Poor kid.

originally posted by: alldaylong

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: alldaylong

This is an odd reply. I just posted a bunch of facts and statistics that shows that gun homicides are down over the last 20 years and even that mass shooting deaths don't even top 1000 deaths in the last 7 years, meanwhile you post ONE link that analyzes the safety index for every country without saying why that country is there and try to say that the reason UK is safer than the US is because of guns (when that link was NEVER established in your link). And I'M the one who is giving excuses?

Like I said, your link is worthless in regards to this debate. It doesn't take into account WHY one country is safer than another and for you to just assume that the reason is guns is VERY dumb and dishonest, because we both know that there are a multitude of factors that go into why a country is safer than another and guns would only be ONE of those factors (not all). You are being unbelievably dishonest with stats and your blind hatred of guns is blinding you to the REAL stats that shows that gun violence is decreasing in this country and it isn't as big of a deal as the Democrats like to make it out.

Seriously YOU need to jump off the ban guns in America bandwagon. Not only are you GROSSLY misinformed about the issues, but you aren't even a citizen of this country. So your input is irrelevant.

Again, you avoided the stats i supplied with yet more feeble excuses.

You said:-

Britain is an Island. Irrelevant
Britain is a smaller country. Irrelevant
Britain doesn't border a country with a more criminal / violent record. irrelevant.

The stats i provided are not stats i collated myself.

As for not commenting on U.S. gun issues because i am not a U.S. citizen, then i hope to see in future that you don't comment on issues that occur outside The U.S.. I would hate to come back and call you a hypocrite.

Oh, hang on you have already commented on issues outside of The U.S.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...


You are a hypocrite.

So why do some countries with the most gun control have the most crime. Mexico has the most restrictive gun control in the Western Hemisphere but some of the highest violent crime rate in the world. Fiji, an island, has more gun control than the UK AND more crime.

He is correct. You post something that shows crime rates but you cannot extrapolate a specific cause and effect from that and he is absolutely correct in pointing that fact out. You claim it is because of gun control but that is patently incorrect from your very data that conflicts that premise.

a reply to: vor78

There are always going to be the extremes on any issue. Then, there are the old timers like me. In the 50's and 60's, guns were just guns. There is almost a "worship" mentality taking over with guns. I don't know if my country is just full of cowards and fearmongers or what is happening. My grandfather taught all his grandchildren with a .22 and we actually killed rabbits, birds. That was how I learned about death and safety with weapons and decided I did not like it. My brothers became good hunters. I guess I am too old and don't get it. Or maybe I am too old to feel fear. I am pretty sure granddaddy would NEVER had put an automatic weapon in my hands at that age. But he loved us.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: vor78

There are always going to be the extremes on any issue. Then, there are the old timers like me. In the 50's and 60's, guns were just guns. There is almost a "worship" mentality taking over with guns. I don't know if my country is just full of cowards and fearmongers or what is happening. My grandfather taught all his grandchildren with a .22 and we actually killed rabbits, birds. That was how I learned about death and safety with weapons and decided I did not like it. My brothers became good hunters. I guess I am too old and don't get it. Or maybe I am too old to feel fear. I am pretty sure granddaddy would NEVER had put an automatic weapon in my hands at that age. But he loved us.

yes i agree.

a youngster has no business using anything larger than a .22 till they are a teenager it least

at what age do you give them a 9mm?

or a powerful gun like a 307 5.56, or a 7.62?

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: vor78

There are always going to be the extremes on any issue. Then, there are the old timers like me. In the 50's and 60's, guns were just guns. There is almost a "worship" mentality taking over with guns. I don't know if my country is just full of cowards and fearmongers or what is happening. My grandfather taught all his grandchildren with a .22 and we actually killed rabbits, birds. That was how I learned about death and safety with weapons and decided I did not like it. My brothers became good hunters. I guess I am too old and don't get it. Or maybe I am too old to feel fear. I am pretty sure granddaddy would NEVER had put an automatic weapon in my hands at that age. But he loved us.

No, there isn't "worship" of guns. Gun owners feel the same thing about guns now as before. The "worship" is really a propaganda besmirchment of gun owners. We feel the same as we did now. We are more vocal now because in the 50's there was not a wave of fanatics trying to take them away, but to us, a gun is still just a gun.

originally posted by: Biigs
at what age do you give them a 9mm?

or a powerful gun like a 307 or a 7.62?

I was 8 when I first shot 30.06 from a WWII era M1Garand. I'd say that it is individual. As a poster above posted, he wasn't allowed to handle certain firearms until he could demonstrate he could handle the weight and balance of it unloaded before he went on to firing it under very controlled conditions and only until he mastered that was he allowed to hunt with it.

Tragic. When I looked up the business where it happened, I was shocked. Oddities certainly stick out in the desert, and this is one of them, but this is far from a benign Stuckeys along a highway. The way I thought about this place crossing a line is this:
The sex act with your spouse in the privacy of the bedroom compared to a sex orgy.
Your cousin’s wedding in her local church compared to a cultish mass wedding ceremony of the moonies Unification Church.
A shooting range compared to this gun cultish orgy.

And then I couldn’t figure out how a family from New Jersey ended up in White Hills, AZ. Then I heard the owner speak in a tv interview. His business was capitalizing on the nearby recreation entertainment scene of Las Vegas. Then it made sense of how a vacationing family ended up with this tragedy in their lap.

A looong time ago, I had an air rifle when I was 7; we went to a target shooting range with a family member when I was 11 and shot off shotguns and pistols. I’ve shot black powder rifles. My sons had bb rifles. I own a shotgun now. Guns used to be acknowledged as something with the potential for harm or death, with certain precautions taken when handling and firing. I know someone who was killed years ago by his own gun in an accident, because even the most cautious gun owner might meet up with an accident. It was always gun safety, gun safety. And responsibility. Guns were respected.

When did guns turn into something far from being respected but akin to a prize in a cracker jack box that any idiot can open and find? Why did a shooting range morph into an entertainment center? Especially as firepower has escalated. Something is wrong, horribly wrong. I’ll have my burgers w/o the gun, thank you. And keep a birthday party at a pizza restaurant.

i dont think any teens should have a large weapon

a .22 and nothing larger till your 16+

a reply to: Biigs

I have to be honest here as the thread is moving on and more posting...... Its a cultral issue.

A typical 9 year old in the West Country would most likely have been taught to drive a Tractor by parents.

In India we can see children serenading Cobras along side thier father.

In Japan a child may be ready to dine with thier family on an expensive puffer fish meal.

And ofcourse in America a child with her parents, was target shooting.

My first post on this thread ironically was about the American Stereotype fits.... Now I have some time to think about it. It is all down to culture. We can do nothing about the instructor, and Im pretty sure this is rare. I still do not like the idea of guns but had to ad another 2 cents.

No, there isn't "worship" of guns. Gun owners feel the same thing about guns now as before

Not buying that one. There are some screwed up people out there that see firearms as toys, status symbols. etc.

How can you speak for all gun owners. Just look at youtube, etc and see what some people do.

originally posted by: Maltese5Rhino
a reply to: Biigs

I have to be honest here as the thread is moving on and more posting...... Its a cultral issue.

A typical 9 year old in the West Country would most likely have been taught to drive a Tractor by parents.

In India we can see children serenading Cobras along side thier father.

In Japan a child may be ready to dine with thier family on an expensive puffer fish meal.

And ofcourse in America a child with her parents of nine was target shooting.

My first post on this thread ironically was about the American Stereotype fits.... Now I have some time to think about it. It is all down to culture. We can do nothing about the instructor, and Im pretty sure this is rare. I still do not like the idea of guns but had to ad another 2 cents.

protecting them from local dangers is fine, no ones going have a problem with that, do kids need automatic weapons? no

a reply to: Biigs

You are right IMO Children shouldnt need automatic weapons. For this incedent I don't think she was ever going to need one. It was a day out gone very bad and I think we all have said it so many times. Bad move on Parents and Instructor.

a reply to: NavyDoc
Thats a ridiculous analogy..swimming vs guns..ya makes sense, millions of children swim probably daily on a statistical basis..how many handle weapons on a daily basis? I understand what your saying but useing analogies like that do nothing for your cause.
furthermore to compare a swimming pool whos only purpose is physical exercise/entertainment to something that is designed to punch holes into things with great velocity causing death or injury specificaly is not a credible comparison. Im more or less pro gun.
If you want to make comparisons do it with other weapons.
Just saying.

originally posted by: Biigs
i dont think any teens should have a large weapon

a .22 and nothing larger till your 16+

I was 6ft and 200 lbs when I was 14. I could handle any firearm just fine.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
I was 6ft and 200 lbs when I was 14.

Was your house next to Three Mile Island?

a reply to: RoScoLaz4
No kid? Many men take their kids hunting for the first time when they are 6-7. Sometimes before that. It's tradition and the passing of knowledge. I shoot with my kids and they do really well. It's all about common sense and educating safety. But no idiot should ever hand a kid a fully automatic weapon or large caliber weapon. ever. Anyone with any sense knows this.

Target practicing is great family fun and a great way to teach safety. You automatically take away that curiosity that kids have about guns. I think it's great to teach kids at a young age how to survive, and how to preserve nature. It feeds us. It is our food. They have to know that. Guns are not a symbol of strength and shouldn't be used as that. It's a symbol of independence.