U.S. says Russia firing artillery over border at Ukraine military

originally posted by: lightedhype
This is why I love ATS.


Give me a break. I do not believe you have any intelligence services providing anything legitimate. It appears all the US has are folks who are willing to lie to the media for them.

Of course they have "intelligence" services, it's the same one they used when they sent Colin Powell to the UN to disclose all the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Or the baby cumber in Kuwait.

I wouldn't call it "intelligence", because the US is simply looking for an excuse to make war.

If I were Putin ... I'd give them their war. How long do you think it's going to take US and Europe, to go totally bankrupt, with all the Middle East against them, as well as Africa, entire Asia and Russia.

The US, with their immense "intelligence" are trying to force the Russian Mafia to get rid of Putin. In the end, that play will cause even greater disturbance than what they've done in Iraq. But that is their game, they're not trying to make things better ... they're paranoid, and want to create Chaos, that isn't capable of "threatening" the US.

They're paranoid, and should be treated like that ... as mentally sick

originally posted by: bjarneorn

If I were Putin ... I'd give them their war.

No, thank you.

Let these guys fight themselves, give them a pair of boxing gloves, and let them decide with force, without killing a thousand or two of population.

originally posted by: ATODASO

originally posted by: Vovin
originally posted by: ATODASO

Yet a country like Israel is allowed to murder 700+ Palestinians because of dubious reasons, officially because of rocket strikes, and Russia is treated to different standards. There is no legitimate basis to judge Russia.

wha?! i didn't say that. was that a mistake, and you meant to reply to me with that? ^

like i said, no skin in this game. just trying to figure out what's going on.

eta: haha, had my own formatting screwup!

No that was my mistake. I posted it then was too busy to check how it ended up.

originally posted by: whitepanther999

originally posted by: bjarneorn

If I were Putin ... I'd give them their war.

No, thank you.

Let these guys fight themselves, give them a pair of boxing gloves, and let them decide with force, without killing a thousand or two of population.

That would be a fight I'd pay to see Putin v Obama, I'd say Putin would have the upper hand, although Obama has been strengthening his arms an awful lot on the golf course lately

a reply to: whitepanther999

Why? Phosphorus weapons are not illegal, they are not chemical weapons per se.

a reply to: sosobad

I'd put my money on Putin....not that that means anything regarding....anything.

As the rebels collapse Russia wil get more involved. This is not suprise. The real question is how far will Russia push it? It could send more weapons and "volunteers" but, since they seem to lack local support that is needed for succesful rebel operations that seems like it would do little good. Russia could directly intervene but, that could lead to some real aid to the UKraine and Russias military is not really up for long confict with an enemy being trained and or suppled by the West. And Russia has to also worry on the off chance they some how trigger direct military intervention by NATO. Russia could just cut its losses and let the rebels fall. Their failure to raise the area in support of them means they never have a real chance of doing much anyway but, Putins eyes that would a loss of face. Or last Russia could step up to the table and work out a deal. This well be much harder because Ukraine has the upper hand and it would look as if Russia was coming hat in hand. All in all an interesting and possibly dangerous position for Russia. Putin is likely wishing he just let Ukraine go and never bothered starting this mess.

Donetsk has to hold and not fall in Kiev's hands.

Russia has to see to it that Donetsk holds.

Otherwise, next thing Kiev would do is create problems on Crimea status.

There is local strong support otherwise rebels would have been chased out by counter militia.

While being conventionally not equal to NATO, Russia is not afraid of military confrontation with NATO or even group of alliances.

Russia has EXTREMELY FEARSOME weapons that can destroy the earth many times over.

And, these MEGA weapons are not puny pin prick nukes.

NATO and West should sober up and focus on internal affairs rather than poking nose in the matters of other countries let alone Technologically Advanced major powers.

One simple question. If the US has nothing to do with all that what happens in the Ukraine, why are US so active in this case??? Trying to play world police again? Begging for the next fail?

But read The Grand Chessboard, and learn what it´s all about, learn about PNAC, learn about the hidden, progressive military occupation of the world by US-Troops and Bases, see how US-Gouvernment is doing it in the J Edgar Hoover way, that´s why the UNSA is monitoring the whole world, even their own tax paying citizens, and so on...

a reply to: BRDAKUT

I love simple questions. They give me the false sense that I know something. Things must be slipping upstairs, however. I'm confused by your simple question.

One simple question. If the US has nothing to do with all that what happens in the Ukraine, why are US so active in this case??? Trying to play world police again?

How is the US active? The US press wants to ask the State Department for their opinions. The State Department makes themselves look silly in two nonsensical interviews. That's hardly "so active."

Besides, take a look at the Budapest Memorandum (or is it Addendum?). In it, Ukraine agreed to give up all it's nukes (it was number three world wide at the time) in exchange for "Security Assurances" from the US, UK, and, I don't know, maybe Dunkin' Donuts signed, too.

That makes the US involved in this, like it or not. It's another bad spot for Obama. He can either yell at Putin, or kick a friend in the head. They're both tough, but he has much more practice abusing his friends, so I'd go with that as the most likely outcome.

a reply to: victor7


Ok in refrence to this mega weapon you are referring to. the TSAR bomba is way to heavy to deliver on a missile. the bombers they do have would be shot down before they delivered them as well.

The US now has weapons able to disable nuclear missiles in their silos or in fligh as well renedering them dead inthe air before they launch the MIRV warheads. They are not publically shown for a reason so that Russia does not know what we truly have in store for them.

The last time they visited the things they DID show them scared them so bad they looked like ghost after wards.
W e also know exactly where all russian submarines are as wel with the new scanning satellites. Believe this information or not.

a reply to: MrSpad

Except that the separatists are not collapsing. In fact, the Ukrainian army is collapsing, hence the Pentagon advisors sent to Ukraine to rebuild the army.

When a few hundred rebels have held strong in half the country and defeated thousands of soldiers, armour and air power, it does not make sense to claim that the separatists are losing grip.

In fact, the fifth column of international antifa fighters is pouring in to fight the fascists that have also poured into Ukraine. This is 1930s Spain all over again.

a reply to: yuppa

Tsar Bomba is only one hard punch in the boxing match, when compared to the Mega Weapons that Russia has. Probably US has them too. These Mega Weapons are not city specific, they take out regions at a time.

US tech is ofcourse ahead of anyone else, but do not know if it renders Russian nukes obsolete.

If this tech was so advanced then US would not pee in its panties on the prospects of Iran getting a nuclear bomb and putting them on the missiles. It would let Iran have nukes with a wicked smirk on the face. So I conclude that US tech is NOT in a position to render Russian nukes to the grade of a Dollar Store toy.

originally posted by: Vovin
a reply to: MrSpad

Except that the separatists are not collapsing. In fact, the Ukrainian army is collapsing, hence the Pentagon advisors sent to Ukraine to rebuild the army.

When a few hundred rebels have held strong in half the country and defeated thousands of soldiers, armour and air power, it does not make sense to claim that the separatists are losing grip.

In fact, the fifth column of international antifa fighters is pouring in to fight the fascists that have also poured into Ukraine. This is 1930s Spain all over again.

I do not think Donetsk will hold for more than a week. At best it can give a strong fight. At worst, it will be taken easily. In the middle, it will be put under a seige like Sarajevo.

Rebels have fought very well, like Lions with high tails but have been outnumbered 1 to 6 in manpower and probably 1 to 10 in terms of weapons...........btw, what weapons? Assault rifles against tanks and apc make no sense. I admire the courage and sacrifice of these fighters who are providing services for free or at best $500 a month i.e. 6-10k Hryvnia a month.

Now that airlines are not flying over the war zone, atleast Russia should bring back the Buk systems and lots of MANPADs to have an unofficial no-fly zone. Occasionally, RuAF should provide cover even from within its own borders using 150km range missiles. Jets can sometimes evade these missiles but helicopters are sitting ducks. Otherwise, the forward posts like check points come under air attack, the fighters disperse and then armor follows up easily.

originally posted by: Vovin
a reply to: MrSpad

Except that the separatists are not collapsing. In fact, the Ukrainian army is collapsing, hence the Pentagon advisors sent to Ukraine to rebuild the army.

When a few hundred rebels have held strong in half the country and defeated thousands of soldiers, armour and air power, it does not make sense to claim that the separatists are losing grip.

In fact, the fifth column of international antifa fighters is pouring in to fight the fascists that have also poured into Ukraine. This is 1930s Spain all over again.

Not only are the rebels collapsing the PM party resigned and killed the coalition and called for new elections because they believe the rebels will be done with a next few weeks and they want to ride the victory to take enough seats that they will not need or completely dominate any new coalition government. The US advisors are to train the Ukraine to take on Russia if it comes to an invasion. That is not likely Putin has been takling about a ceasefire.

He is calling for this for two reasons. One, the rebels are falling apart and without the support of the local population or Russian intervention they will be defeated soon. If they had local support they could have dragged this out for years but, either it was never there or their actions with the locals caused to end. They do have a reputation of stealing everything not bolted to the ground. Second Russia with new santions wants to deflect attention from investigation into the airliner shoot down. If the Russians are in peace talks the results of the investigation will be smoother over in so as not derail talks.

As I am dealing in reality I am not going to bother with your facist and antifa fighter nonsense as it has about as much to with Ukraine as do with lizard people and the NWO.

a reply to: BRDAKUT

I think I will put my tin foil hat on now...right over the aluminum foil one.

One cannot be too careful, you know.

Way back in April, Lavrov had openly said that Russia will not invade. Moscow sponsored the revolt to help them gain Federalization. Moscow parked 40K troops near border to put pressure on Kiev to not select any fascist candidates for presidency.

Putin supported and approved the election of Poroshenko. But the new president back stabbed him on the agenda of diplomatic solution in the east and launched the ATO. Poorly supplied rebels had little standing ground with assault rifles and few RPGs.

Now where from here? At best Moscow can help the rebels from its side of the border via grad, artillery, ground to air and air to air missiles. It can also boost the men and machines to the rebels and top it up with more intelligence in the real time for battle efficiency. With this help if rebels can hold on for few months, then Kiev's staying power will dwindle in balance like a "badly plundered drunk whore on a sidewalk". Then ofcourse, Porosheko will have to immediately dispatch "10,000 Handpicked Ukrainian Hookers" to western, middle eastern, north american, asian capitals and big cities..........working 50+ clients a day to help Junta finance the war. That is Poroshenko's last bet to keep fighting like a FASCIST. More so because West is not going to even fart a dime in Kiev's direction, because West itself is bankrupt.

On the otherhand, Moscow is also much vulnerable to sanctions which have only been 'pin prick' so far targeting individuals and few companies. Recently some banks which have had arranged $15-20B of capital from west for trade transactions have been sanctioned. But Putin's oligarchs have $500B of stolen funds in London, Cyprus, Swiss, Bahamas, Caribbean banks. He can just send his KGB to pick the kids of these oligarchs and most of the funds will come back. Putin or Kremlin needs to fear little from these "oligarch thieves". Further Bonus of this would be the 1-2% transaction fees that Moscow was paying to western banks will be saved and this fee will now be paid to Kremlin's efforts to support the rebels.

The real bitch of sanctions would be if Germany, France, Italy pick the phone and tell Moscow to not deliver anymore gas after two weeks or so. Same for oil and commodities. Although, Indians and Chinese will be more more more than happy to provide 10,000 truck tankers with team of drivers on 24x7 round trips to get Russian oil until a pipeline is ready in 2-3 years from Siberia to the Asian hubs.

Temporarily, these sanctions would shut major lights out of the Russian economic engines. Only that it will also severely hurt EU economies to the tune of $100s of Billion or more, even if US promises to replenish the gas supplies via 1000 ships from east coast to German ports.

Such mega sanctions will definitely throw the whole world into recession or even depression. Whole Russian families have lived off less than $50/month on grocery bill in the 1990s and will not be hurt so badly. On the other hand, Western households will go berserk on rising unemployment alone and will come out with "guns and hammers" if their grocery bills gets reduced by even 25%.

End of the day, whole world will suffer and any hot heads on either side can also trigger wars. Russia alone can call White House or Berlin and tell that suddenly cutting off gas trade IS AN ACT OF WAR and they should be ready for the consequences. Just like Russians dropping $200B of USD bonds would collapse the dollar and US economy and have US senators calling it an ACT OF WAR.

originally posted by: victor7
Russia should not only fire artillery it should also fire the 'directed artillery' which goes to a certain GPS coordinate.

Russia should also provide satellite intelligence to rebels along with real time drone camera utilities to help fighters focus on certain area.

Those rebels shot down a civilian jumbo jet carrying almost 300 people, possibly from negligence.
Would you seriously give them more weapons?
Questions: How come they are so well trained and have perfect weaponry?
They have tanks, perfect uniforms, flamethrowers etc.
How come they have two commanders out of three born in Russia, not Ukraine?
How come they threaten with death any civilian who is suspected of helping the elected government of Ukraine?
How come those interviewed imagine that they are directly at war with the US?

Possible answer: These guys are not civilian rebels like those guys on Tahrir Square who demanded Mubarak's ousting. Just compare any picture on the two.
This is a well-armed militia, three mercenary armies attacking Ukraine - not even deigning to have talks with them. But they have big money and the supply of one of the world's biggest army behind them.

US to give missile intelligence to Ukraine


www.liveleak.com...

US is trying very hard to provoke Russia to pick a fight.

What is this going to turn into?

a reply to: victor7

“You’ve got a Russian government that has made a conscious decision to use its military force inside another sovereign nation to achieve its objectives,” he said. “They clearly are on a path to assert themselves differently not just in Eastern Europe, but Europe in the main, and towards the United States.”