U.S. says Russia firing artillery over border at Ukraine military

originally posted by: Vovin
originally posted by: ATODASO

Yet a country like Israel is allowed to murder 700+ Palestinians because of dubious reasons, officially because of rocket strikes, and Russia is treated to different standards. There is no legitimate basis to judge Russia.

wha?! i didn't say that. was that a mistake, and you meant to reply to me with that? ^

like i said, no skin in this game. just trying to figure out what's going on.

eta: haha, had my own formatting screwup!

a reply to: demus

I notice that they change direction and attention: in this light of the tragedy, the US attacks Russia for something else now, rather the mh17.

originally posted by: whitepanther999
I want to tell something about this social network thing with the soldier telling about shooting Ukraine.

Hacking the accounts is much more common there, on this social network called Vkontakte, which is used by Ukraine, too. These accounts then used for spam, or whatever. The thing i notice here, is that his account was NOT deleted as it is claimed. It was automatically frozen, as it sometimes does when it is hacked. It says something along the lines 'we have frozen the page, because the page is in the malevolent hands, notify the owner please'.

All i imply is: this source can not be trusted so much.

here's the guy's profile, i don't really want to get a vk account, would you mind screenshotting that? thanks in advance.



it looks like this story first hit on a livejournal account.

zloy-odessit.livejournal.com...

the comments section is a lot messier than anything i've seen on this forum lol.

a reply to: Zcustosmorum

I don't understand why this is so difficult. If your concern is to win an argument, then fine, you win, I salute you. If your goal is to protect Russia and the separatists from even the slightest criticism as long as possible, then you win again. It's really your day, isn't it.

If you want a reasonable conversation, then let's try again, but seriously this time.

The topic is about Russia firing artillery rounds into Ukraine.

Several of the videos, filmed near a pond of some sort, were apparently taken by a resident of the town. A careful perusal of Google Street View reveals that several physical features in the videos match exactly a location in the northwest corner of the town.

So we have several videos taken from a precise location in the town, as confirmed by Street View. The only question is whether the guy with the camera was a resident of the town, or someone there for another reason. And you say it "Sounds all rather vague?" How can that be? If someone drops off videos showing naked children coming out of your apartment when you're at home, does it matter whether the filmmaker is from Glasgow or Edinburgh?

Additionally, how can someone say "claim" and "apparently" and then in their own words say "proves conclusively", seriously?

Because some things they have proven, and some things they haven't. It's proper journalism.

Look mate, if more people are going to be getting killed, I don't want vagueries or sensationalist claims,

Yet you still won't accept the video which is described as proving conclusively that shells (or some other projectile) were being fired from Russian territory?

I want cold, hard, concrete solid proof before the bombs and bullets start flying.

Isn't that worry several months too late? I can't believe that you think Obama would start a shooting war with Russia. Nobody could believe that. Whose bombs and bullets do you think are going to be flying at Russia?

a reply to: ATODASO

I cannot get a picture of profile, because when it's frozen the only thing you see is this:

I changed the settings to english, so i don't have to translate it.

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: Zcustosmorum

I don't understand why this is so difficult. If your concern is to win an argument, then fine, you win, I salute you. If your goal is to protect Russia and the separatists from even the slightest criticism as long as possible, then you win again. It's really your day, isn't it.

If you want a reasonable conversation, then let's try again, but seriously this time.

The topic is about Russia firing artillery rounds into Ukraine.

Several of the videos, filmed near a pond of some sort, were apparently taken by a resident of the town. A careful perusal of Google Street View reveals that several physical features in the videos match exactly a location in the northwest corner of the town.

So we have several videos taken from a precise location in the town, as confirmed by Street View. The only question is whether the guy with the camera was a resident of the town, or someone there for another reason. And you say it "Sounds all rather vague?" How can that be? If someone drops off videos showing naked children coming out of your apartment when you're at home, does it matter whether the filmmaker is from Glasgow or Edinburgh?

Additionally, how can someone say "claim" and "apparently" and then in their own words say "proves conclusively", seriously?

Because some things they have proven, and some things they haven't. It's proper journalism.

Look mate, if more people are going to be getting killed, I don't want vagueries or sensationalist claims,

Yet you still won't accept the video which is described as proving conclusively that shells (or some other projectile) were being fired from Russian territory?

I want cold, hard, concrete solid proof before the bombs and bullets start flying.

Isn't that worry several months too late? I can't believe that you think Obama would start a shooting war with Russia. Nobody could believe that. Whose bombs and bullets do you think are going to be flying at Russia?

Ok, I concur, let's cut to the chase.

On the main sources, we have RT:

When asked by Lee for any evidence, however, Harf said the State Dept. is unwilling at this time to disclose further details because doing so could expose the secret intelligence operations involved in making such claims.

rt.com...

BBC News:

State department spokeswoman Marie Harf told reporters on Thursday the US had evidence derived from "human intelligence information" showing Russia firing artillery into eastern Ukraine. She said the US would not provide further details so as not to compromise sources and methods of intelligence collection.

www.bbc.co.uk...

Sky News:

Doesn't even have it as a main story, which says it really isn't big news.

So, basically yet again, the U.S. fails to provide any evidence. I have no idea where your source is coming from and how do you know he isn't a supporter of Kiev? It's possible and surely Wsshington can't be as nieve as you for using this as their source? Actually, seeing as they've yet to prove the rest of the claims they've made, I could be wrong.

Even if Russia did fire rockets into Ukraine, so what? If it was in defence of the Pro-Russian Ukraine civilians still there, I salute them for it, at least someone is trying to help the innocent folks of this mess.

Evidence of nothing I'm afraid

This is why I love ATS.

I guess we can chalk this story up to just another round of bull# from the US propaganda machine?

Thank you for your thoughts everyone.

It is such a shame that the United States refuses to release anything ever. Seriously, how long can this non-disclosure continue until the entire world looks at the US and simply chuckles. They do not want to compromise their intelligence services and methods? Give me a break. I do not believe you have any intelligence services providing anything legitimate. It appears all the US has are folks who are willing to lie to the media for them.

So sick of the anonymity. Until the USGov starts revealing some of the intelligence that WE THE PEOPLE pay for - nobody is going to take them or their claims seriously....

Let's see what we have in store for the next coming days...personally I have a bad feeling.

originally posted by: whitepanther999
a reply to: ATODASO

I cannot get a picture of profile, because when it's frozen the only thing you see is this:

I changed the settings to english, so i don't have to translate it.

cool, thanks!

originally posted by: elpistolero1
no evidence was presented yet.

This is getting plain stupid.

Again the USA points the propaganda finger without a shred of evidence.

Becoming a bit of a bad habit making baseless accusations targeting Russia...first MH17, no evidence just mouthing off..that hasn't worked because the world is smarter than the US propaganda planners would have hoped, so now on to artillery fire.

Who wants to bet, the US will accuse Russia of chemical or biological weapons use soon?

Sportsman's bet anyone?

There's only one reason the US is desperate to drag Russia down...the decline of the petrodollar on the heels of the massive deal between Russia and China and the BRICS banking system recently announced.

China won't be happy to lose the biggest energy deal in history i don't suppose and probably won't like to see it's primary energy partner attacked without having something to say about it..it's a dangerous play from the USA and they are being more than cavalier with all our lives.

I have another controversial news, you will probably see it soon.

The Security Service of Ukraine posted a video of a Russian soldier claiming to have deserted from Russian army to Ukrainian territory, because he doesn't agree with Russian politics, or something.

I can transcribe the video, but i think you will get it soon enough from your media (don't know if fully)



Suspicious things for me:

1) He monotonously reads from a script. Doesn't seem to be a learned text, he stumbles on big words and so.
2) The text itself though is rich in expression.

Must say though, the guy seems to really have been a russian soldier - not a professional one, but the obligatory military service one, which all fit men have to do here (which many are afraid to do).

What to make of it yet, have no idea.

But have one conclusion, as i've said before:

The attention is purposefully diverted now from mh17 to the problems on Russian-Ukraine borders. Of course showing Russian in an agressor vibe.

So here's the transcript of the video. I didn't add his stutterings and stumbling, you can see it in the video.

I am a citizen of Russian Federation. Used to serve in the Armed Forces of Russia. Served in one of the military bases in the city of Samara. In May 2014, togethe with personell and military vehicles and arms was relocated to the territory of Rostov region, in close proximity with Russia-Ukraine border.

In May-June 2014 our base was gotten on fighting alarm, personell was given arms and ammo.

I got to know that Russian professional soldiers were illegally transferred to Luhansk and Donetsk regions, most of those were intel officers.

Moreover, in support of terrorists, to Ukrainian territory were transferred heavy and armored vehicles. I was also a witness that the bases near borders were filled with Northern Caucasusians, who were of extremely bad opinion on Ukrainian people. With my comrades i felt that everything leads to war with Ukraine. It's goal was stated by commanders as protection of ethnic Russians in South-eastern Ukraine from neo-nazis of the RIght Sector (Pravy Sector).

Russan TV constatly showed the happenings in Ukraine in a bad light. And i had a possibility to communicate with some Ukrainian people through social networks, and really was understanding how much the information is distorted in russian media, how unfair is the assessment of events by my commanders, and dangerous plans of Russian government to the Brotherly nation.

I decided not to take part in the possible brother-killing war, and condemn the politics of Russian government to Ukraine. Including the Crimea annexation, support of terrorism and separatism in Donetsk and Luhansk regions by giving the arms, personell and mercenaries from Russian territory. My quitting to Ukrainian territory is my expression of protest against Russian politics against friendly nation.(!!!)

I understand how Russian government can deal with me, if I come back, I am going to ask Ukraine for political asylum.

a reply to: lightedhype

And?

If "I" was putin, I wouldn't waste artillary shells. I'd wipe them out ... period.

In this case, it's most likely some general in the Army that is aiding his friends, in the rebel opposition. Making sure kiev doesn't get the upper hand. Putin will most likely "stop" the attack, not too quickly though ... and not go ahead with attacking their position.

In reality, you should thank God it's Putin. Because if it wasn't putin ... the guy whose trying to play both sides, and sail between chairs. The ukranian nationalists, wouldn't have an army ...

originally posted by: whitepanther999
I have another controversial news, you will probably see it soon.

The Security Service of Ukraine posted a video of a Russian soldier claiming to have deserted from Russian army to Ukrainian territory, because he doesn't agree with Russian politics, or something.

I can transcribe the video, but i think you will get it soon enough from your media (don't know if fully)

Suspicious things for me:

1) He monotonously reads from a script. Doesn't seem to be a learned text, he stumbles on big words and so.
2) The text itself though is rich in expression.

Must say though, the guy seems to really have been a russian soldier - not a professional one, but the obligatory military service one, which all fit men have to do here (which many are afraid to do).

What to make of it yet, have no idea.

But have one conclusion, as i've said before:

The attention is purposefully diverted now from mh17 to the problems on Russian-Ukraine borders. Of course showing Russian in an agressor vibe.

The army officials from Russia were sure that he wasnt a prisoner in Ukraine, when he got lost, stating that Russia doesn't have military operations with their forces on Ukrainian territory. They don't deny that he can be a deserter.

It is obvious that a young man near the border with Ukraine was afraid that the commanders will send him to some war, or that they will be a target of attack from Ukraine. Young people in Russia in general are often afraid of going to the army because of bullying and so. But here it's some military scandals very close, which wouldn't help his judgement.

Anyways, I would like to have much more details from Ukrainian side in order to believe them.

This guy doesnt say how he did it, his journey up to this video. How did he appear on the Ukrainian territory? Is he really there now?

I didn't read the whole thread yet, did America provide evidence that Russia is doing this? And I am not talking about "intelligence" from Twitter, anything concrete? Funny the way the narrative is changing from the plane to artillery strikes, it's like they are trying to get people to talk about something else.

originally posted by: MysterX

Who wants to bet, the US will accuse Russia of chemical or biological weapons use soon?

Expect to see something with Phosporus ammo or bombs.

Both side blame each other for doing it (Russia claims so)/preparing to do it( Ukraine claims that russian terrorists ask for phosphorus ammo).

originally posted by: sosobad
I didn't read the whole thread yet, did America provide evidence that Russia is doing this? And I am not talking about "intelligence" from Twitter, anything concrete? Funny the way the narrative is changing from the plane to artillery strikes, it's like they are trying to get people to talk about something else.

Something else?

They are trying to get people to talk about ANYTHING else, so long as it is negative and biased against Russia or Russian interests.

They're like children telling lies about another kid in class...

'Ivan just hit me Miss..he punched me hard right in the eye!'

'well, Sam..i was watching and i didn't see him do that to you'

'...He did..he did! He punched me right in the shoulder'

But Sam, you said it was your eye.

'I mean't he kicked me in the leg, not the eye'

...Kicked, not punched Sam?

'No, no...he pinched me..really hard'.

Don't worry Ivan, everyone in the class knows Sam is a lying little gimp who wouldn't know the truth if it whacked him around the head repeatedly...Sam, you're staying in a playtime and will write a 100 lines...'I will not be a lying and manipulative little scumbag'.

The worst part is they actually expect people to believe this crap.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Good information. At least some of the people in these agencies are good people. But the squeaky wheel gets the grease. The good ones get ignored initially.

originally posted by: lightedhype
All excellent points. I would like to remind you all (so the OP does not get slaughtered) that I tend to side with Russia on the whole Ukraine matter.

If you do not mind my asking, why are you in support of Russia? Not looking to snipe, just curious. That was a unique statement not seen before on this thread.

a reply to: ATODASO

If they have been bombing Ukraine all night, where are the empty shells?

I would believe one or two shots looking at that picture. But a nocturnal raid? No way.

Loving the blame game going on over there.