America: The cursed burnt offering for the age to come.

brazenalderpadrescorpio
reply to post by defcon5

 

We were debating this idea about the 144,000. What is your interpretation of what the 144,000 stands for?

edit on 28-3-2014 by brazenalderpadrescorpio because: (no reason given)

I can't see anything relating to raptured Christians in the book of Revelation and I suspect this is why Christians identify themselves with the 144,000...

But the Bible describes the 144,000 as being 12,000 each from each of the tribes of Israel and therefore Jewish, males, virgins, 'sealed' and without guile. The 'without guile' leads me to believe that they will be infants, who are the 'first-fruits'. Hand picked by God, so to speak.

This description of 'first-fruits' also ties in with 1 Corinthians 15:23 where it says that 'each will come in their own order, Christ, [then] the first-fruits, and afterwards those who are Christ's at his coming'.

Further along in this same chapter of Revelation after speaking about the 144,000, it is clearly stated that those who have come through the Tribulation, are the ones are washed by the blood of the Lamb.

So where does this leave Christian believers?

reply to post by Maigret


Jehovah's Witnesses say that the 144,000 represent those who are going to rule as kings and priests along with Christ. They fit a large portion of their interpretation of the Bible to this one belief. To me, their reasoning is the one that makes the most sense, biblically. I personally believe that everyone is offered the chance of existence in the spirit-realm however.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

I dont see your point. The people who killed Him did so out of hate, not because they loved Him or sought salvation.

Yes. Jesus would probably have preferred that you killed him with your gullible love rather than being killed by the Roman Empire in an act of eh hate? You are much better than Pilate of course. A preferred killer. A saint of killers no less. Killing Jesus is imperative so you and your congregation can enter heaven. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, ha?

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

Apples and oranges. The sacrifices to Moloch were involuntary and unclean (sinful). Jesus willingly died. That is why we came down from Heaven to be incarnated as a man. He was sinless, so the sacrifice was clean. He knew that Judas would hand Him over for execution and did nothing to defend Himself. He didnt even resist arrest. He willingly died to pay for our sins. That was the plan revealed in the Law of spotless lamb sacrifice.

Heb 10:8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law)

This same phrasing is repeated many times over throughout the Prophets and Psalms. Like here:

Jer 7:22 "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

reply to post by zardust


The sacrifice Jesus was willing to give was in the shape of a piece of bread and a sip of wine, to be done in memory of him and in honour of his heritage. Bread to replace flesh. Wine to replace blood. And if you cannot afford wine or there is nothing to be found, Jesus showed us at a certain wedding that water can be used instead of wine, hey, even tears and crumbs. And if you have no bread left, don't worry, for remembering an utterance of God will do.

Utnapisjtim

tsingtao

Utnapisjtim

brazenalderpadrescorpio
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

But, according to scriptural reasoning, why would God give natural Israel a chance if they rejected the Messiah?

Jesus never seem to have wanted to be a messiah/king in the first place, it was the later Church who turned him into the Christ. Jesus just wanted to be left alone and go about with his rabbi'ing and making doors (walk through walls) and boats (walking on water) and telling riddles:

John 6:15 Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.

And in the Apocalypse Jesus' heir is the Christ. Jesus will be his Father/God:

Rev 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

edit on 27-3-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: flesh to the bone

edit on 27-3-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: +riddles

edit on 27-3-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Rev quote

you can't be serious.

lol!

Jesus knew his mission on earth.

DUH! ya think?

where do u people get this stuff?

u think it up all on your own? talk to a rabbi or a priest.

Jesus' mission? Jesus was crucified because of the whole messiah-thing. Nailed to a tree like a Roman trophy, as if to say: "This is what happens to anyone threatening Roman supremacy in Judea." Jesus wasn't stupid. He didn't have a deathwish. As far as I'm concerned, there hasn't been a messiah in Israel/Judah since Solomon.

yeah, well that just your opinion. lol!

Utnapisjtim

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

Jesus is our creator.

[irony]Yeah, let's go kill him, you can see he wants it. He's the perfect sacrifice! Let's nail him to a tree and ridd us of all our misery![/irony]

Can't you see that this is wrong? The kind of magic you discribe is dark and diabolic.

edit on 28-3-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Majick

can you try to be more wrong?

really, please.

144,000?

who knows.

probably not you or me being called.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


The bread and wine is a memorial to His physical sacrifice. It was designed to show how His death permanently ended lamb sacrifice. I'll say it again, you may reject Jesus' purpose on earth in 30 AD as the sacrifice for sin but you can not objectively prove that the concept is anti-biblical. From Genesis to Revelation, the obvious theme is atonement via the blood of a perfect and willing sacrifice. Im afraid your opinion is subjected to bias rather than objective study of the Old and New Testament.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

The bread and wine is a memorial to His physical sacrifice.

Oh dear. I understand that this is complicated. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth." All you need to do is to kneel down and kiss the devil's feet. Jesus gave you bread, but you chose rocks instead. He offered you wine, but you would rather take a dive to taste the lukewarm crimson in the Temple's court. Can't you see the devil grin? "Be ye rather wise as serpents" and you may actually live to tell the tale.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


Bad times are coming all right. But it is not going to come from one country, names mean nothing. It is going to come from the human hearts making the choice between the King of the North or the the King of the South. We are in it now.

Utnapisjtim
reply to post by zardust

 

The sacrifice Jesus was willing to give was in the shape of a piece of bread and a sip of wine, to be done in memory of him and in honour of his heritage. Bread to replace flesh. Wine to replace blood. And if you cannot afford wine or there is nothing to be found, Jesus showed us at a certain wedding that water can be used instead of wine, hey, even tears and crumbs. And if you have no bread left, don't worry, for remembering an utterance of God will do.

edit on 29-3-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: tears and crumbs

edit on 29-3-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


Yeah, you said all of that already. What you havent done is addressed the fact that Jesus' death harmonizes with the entire Bible. Neither have you provided any textual support for your interpretation. Its one thing to make an attractive claim, its another to show the context in scripture. I would expect that much from you.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

Yeah, you said all of that already. What you havent done is addressed the fact that Jesus' death harmonizes with the entire Bible. Neither have you provided any textual support for your interpretation. Its one thing to make an attractive claim, its another to show the context in scripture. I would expect that much from you.

Ok, so I have to site verses for you so you can understand that it is wrong to use patsies and Judasgoats now and that human sacrifice is wrong? How about common sense for a change? Not to mention that advocating the killing of your lord is nothing short of treason and sacrilege. Beats me.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


Wow, so we went from where Jesus knew it was coming and accepted it to somehow advocating it. I missed where anyone said "We wanted to kill Jesus!"

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


bill cooper "mystery babylon" series
part 19 - convocation of the 68th rose cross whatever

..you might find that interesting if you haven't already?

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


No, you need to cite scripture to indicate that Jesus was unwilling to lay His life down for His creation. None of Jesus true followers wanted Him dead. He chose that path for our prospect of Eternal Life. He even went as far to ask His Father to forgive the conspirators against Him. You made the claim that Jesus was ignorant of His destiny and implied that He was unwilling to lay His life down for the creation that He loved, so now the burden of proof is on you.

Talk is cheap man. You gotta back it up or it means nothing.

I'll try and keep this short.
I'm a personal believer in Jesus as the Messiah. I have personal faith in Him as my Redeemer, my Saviour and my Advocate.
That's my starting point.
Now then.....
Experts, scholars, novices, heretics and zealots have argued, fought over, killed, blessed, assented to, demonised, interpreted, extrapolated, modernized, conjectured, simplified, radicalized and perceived with personal bias and expectation the words of Jesus and the words of the Bible which we hold to be the word of GOD to His creation over a long period of time.
We have (Christians) what we call the Old Testament and the New Testament. One focuses on LAW the other focuses on GRACE.

For example: LAW "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" satisfies and fulfills in the same way as
GRACE says, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you."

One seems mean and nasty, the other fair, acceptable and nice. They both say the SAME THING. One describes the nature of GOD's heart, one describes the nature of our heart. The Russian novelist Dostoevsky once said, "You can tell a lot about the society you live in by the people you find in its prisons".

There is a belief amongst Christians in the ultimate corruption of the human heart. Not a popular opinion, but it holds at its core the idea it is corrupt, selfish, wicked. The Selfish Gene. It is a genetic mutation that has been handed down. Like it or not, every human in existence is a carrier.
It's odd, because we look around and with relativistic eyes, and we perceive some as better than others. More moral, more loving, more caring, more HUMAN. Or maybe more Godly.
Cutting to the chase, I believe Jesus the perfect Son of GOD came to give us a blood transfusion that goes WAY BEYOND personal DNA and all the other 'issues' that come with that.

Whatever you believe about the future/rapture/judgement/ etc, I perceive an unrighteous kingdom in this world. I have been given a personal hope of His own kingdom come, AND coming. In the midst of that kingdom tension, I am shown how to live, love and abide in Him and the world I walk in. He has given the command to 'Be ready', the ability to 'Get ready', and the commission to 'Make others ready'. All of the above involves everything HE has ever done, and has NOTHING to do with my goodness, ability, power of character. I want and choose to walk in His love and character, and make Him my goal and destination.
I believe that should be the character of His followers, and I want to live by that.
Jesus loves me, and unconditionally loves you.
How do I share that with a post modern world that is skeptical, cynical, and indifferent?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

To those who dont see the overwhelming fluidity of the Bible, Jesus can be any number of character associations. I however, see the bible as a closed unit that is often mimicked by various cultural myths....one truth refracted by culture into multiple distortions. In my opinion, the bible is numerically, morally, and spiritually stable. While it is not the earliest recorded knowledge, it is God's disclosure of the truth to those who will listen.

Serious question.......Why do you believe what you read in a book that has been translated and re-written countless times over 2 millennia by people that would consider electricity to be the work of devils and demons?

Do you genuinely believe it.....or have you been "taught" to believe it?


honest answer please.

Argyll
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

To those who dont see the overwhelming fluidity of the Bible, Jesus can be any number of character associations. I however, see the bible as a closed unit that is often mimicked by various cultural myths....one truth refracted by culture into multiple distortions. In my opinion, the bible is numerically, morally, and spiritually stable. While it is not the earliest recorded knowledge, it is God's disclosure of the truth to those who will listen.

Serious question.......Why do you believe what you read in a book that has been translated and re-written countless times over 2 millennia by people that would consider electricity to be the work of devils and demons?

Do you genuinely believe it.....or have you been "taught" to believe it?


honest answer please.

Serious answer:

The wisdom in that book has changed me from being a bi-polar self destructive maniac to a functioning and stable member of society. It has done for me what psychology, medication and philosophy could not do. When everything seemed to be against me, the word of God brought me independence, blessing, prosperity, discipline, and my soul-mate.

Since becoming a believer, there have been times that study in certain sensitive subjects (the 'the angelic conflict', demonism, certain areas of historical analysis, etc) have provoked supernatural attacks on me. I often struggle with demonic attacks at night that happen in synchronicity with demonic attacks against my friends and family. The word of God and the Holy Spirit has always protected me during these attacks.

There is also a metric syllable metering found in the original texts of the bible that unifies the entire book. This pattern establishes a historical timeline from the fall of Adam to the fall of the second temple. With this pattern, I was able to forcast a model for the Tribulation (9/16/2016-9/?/2023). This same pattern mathematically fits the prophetic visions of Iris Nasreen that were spoken before I actually discovered the pattern.

That is why I believe. I am simply trying to alert people that time is running out. We have less than 3 years before prophecy resumes. Its better to choose now than to wait for 2016.