America: The cursed burnt offering for the age to come.

oops, duplicate post

reply to post by defcon5


Thanks for your response, that seems to clear up matters. I just have one question (this is a sincere question, I'm not trying to argue), but if what you say is true, why are Ephraim and Dan not included in that list? I can see why Ephraim and Dan would not be included in general, but what about the Ephraimite, Joshua? Are you saying that someone as faithful as Joshua would not be one who is going to heaven, according to the Bible? And like I said in my parenthesis, I'm not trying to argue, I'm very interested in different interpretations of the Bible.

reply to post by Logarock


Thanks for the tip.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


To be frank; you haven't refuted my point. You have only supported a new theory that Jesus is death himself. I'm sure death never demands worship, God is a jealous God. I still have seen no biblical contradiction towards my previous point that is directly referred to in the Koran.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


Revelation is like an extremely skimpy summary of a big book. You hardly have any idea what's going to happen judging by that little story. It's like a macro-economic professor trying to teach you a lesson about your private business without knowing a single thing about it. It's basically impossible to interpret comprehensively without additional information.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by On7a7higher7plane

 

Jesus directed worship to Himself. Read John 15:1-14, its pretty obvious.

Absolutely NOT. Any worship of humans, angels, animals, images or statues etc. is completey and utterly prohibited in Judaism. Jesus was a Jew and preached Judaism, actually a highly conservative and orthodox form of Judaism. Such worship as Christians perform is illegal according to the Torah, and had Jesus advocated such worship he could and would have been stoned at the spot. Worship of Jesus and saints is based on much later Christian doctrine and dogma and has nothing to do with the kind of Judaism Jesus taught. Jesus said, "love eachother", not "worship me". Basically he said "Love eachother like I have loved you and like the Father loves me". Love and worship are miles apart. Worshipping Jesus is like worshipping a serpent for his fear-inducing nature. Worship is respect. Love has no conditions. Worship is doctrine and law.

Utnapisjtim

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by On7a7higher7plane

 

Jesus directed worship to Himself. Read John 15:1-14, its pretty obvious.

Absolutely NOT. Any worship of humans, angels, animals, images or statues etc. is completey and utterly prohibited in Judaism. Jesus was a Jew and preached Judaism, actually a highly conservative and orthodox form of Judaism. Such worship as Christians perform is illegal according to the Torah, and had Jesus advocated such worship he could and would have been stoned at the spot. Worship of Jesus and saints is based on much later Christian doctrine and dogma and has nothing to do with the kind of Judaism Jesus taught. Jesus said, "love eachother", not "worship me". Basically he said "Love eachother like I have loved you and like the Father loves me". Love and worship are miles apart. Worshipping Jesus is like worshipping a serpent for his fear-inducing nature. Worship is respect. Love has no conditions. Worship is doctrine and law.

Jesus Chrust never preached
"Judaism".

Jesus preached what He prayed in John 17

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began

The entire scriptures from start to finish are they that testify of the Christ.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


Yes, I agree - this is pointless.

For the record, I do want to say one thing: It is deceived Christians who will be inflicting the Tribulation on the Israelites, over their deity Jesus. (This will prove the Source of my information.)

brazenalderpadrescorpio
Thanks for your response, that seems to clear up matters. I just have one question (this is a sincere question, I'm not trying to argue), but if what you say is true, why are Ephraim and Dan not included in that list? I can see why Ephraim and Dan would not be included in general, but what about the Ephraimite, Joshua?

Ephraim is part of the House of Joseph as far as I know:
tribe of Ephraim

According to the Hebrew Bible, the Tribe of Ephraim (Hebrew: אֶפְרַיִם / אֶפְרָיִם, Modern Efrayim Tiberian ʾEp̄ráyim / ʾEp̄rā́yim ; "double fruitfulness") was one of the Tribes of Israel. The Tribe of Manasseh together with Ephraim also formed the House of Joseph.

And as far as Dan not being listed in Revelations:
Tribe of Dan

The Tribe of Dan, also sometimes spelled as "Dann", (Hebrew: דָּן, Modern Dan Tiberian Dān ; "Judge") was one of the Tribes of Israel. Though known mostly from biblical sources, they were possibly descendants of the Denyen Sea Peoples who joined with Hebrews. They were excluded from the list of sealed tribes in the Book of Revelation for pagan practices, but they were given a northern portion of land in future Israel according to the Book of Ezekiel.

brazenalderpadrescorpio
Are you saying that someone as faithful as Joshua would not be one who is going to heaven, according to the Bible?

Are we back to the idea that only the 144K make it to heaven? As I stated about this is not the case.
Jews, just like gentiles have to accept Christ for salvation. Those who had already died by the time that Christ was crucified were given a chance in hell for salvation, which is what the 'Harrowing of Hell' is about. Christ “descended into hell” to “break the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder”, then take those waiting there to paradise. Anyway, Jews who have accepted Christ, but are not among the 144K would also be among the white robed multitude.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Well I'm glad to see who know what Preterism is.
I am not a Preterist though, I'm a Historicist that used to be a futurist. Historicism and Preterism are very similar in some ways, but very different in others. Let me tell you, after studying this stuff, Historicism is the only one where all the puzzle pieces of prophecy fall into place, but it does take an adjustment in thinking especially when coming from the school of futurism.

Just as an example, when folks read Matthew 24, they tend to think that it all relates to the “tribulation”, the “end of the world”, and the “return of Christ”, and while that's true, it doesn't put a time on how long that process may take. So the end really did start within a generation of the time Christ said it would, but his return isn't until the end of the tribulation. Since the tribulation lasts for an “age” both the fact that it started back then, yet there are still things that need to happen 2 thousand years later, are true. There is nothing in the bible that says because it started in 70 ad that Christ HAD to come back right after the Temple was destroyed. Understand what I'm getting at here?

With that in mind EVRYTHING, every war, every plague, every schism in the Church, every natural disaster since 70 ad are ALL part of the tribulation. Every person since 70ad who thought that they were experiencing the “end of the world” was correct, as they in fact were experiencing a part of an ongoing process. The bible says that these events get worse, and come faster as we get closer to the end, which is also true. Wars have increased, and gotten much worse over time. We've had the first two world wars in the last 100 years, and may be very close to heading into the 3rd and final one. Natural disasters are increasing, and the amount of death and damage they create are increasing along with them. Necessities are getting scarcer and more expensive. Privacy and freedoms are being stripped away. Folks experiencing this though are like the “frog in the pot”, being slowly cooked to death. They don't realize exactly how much worse things are getting, or that these events are part of the 'end times', and that it's all part of Satan’s plan to deceive us slowly over time.

I started reading outside the school of Futurism, because there were biblical conflicts, including some with things expressly stated by Christ. One of the most important being that Christ stated the “end will come as a thief in the night”, yet someone who follows futurism knows that when they see an antichrist, a rebuilt temple, etc... the end is 3.5 years away. Hardly a thief in the night if you have a time-line that can be followed that closely. Again, I highly recommend studying Historicism, its the least well known school, but the one that was supported by all the protestant reformers. Following it everything in prophecy actually does make sense, and agrees with the scripture without a lot of speculation or bending of text to fit events.

reply to post by defcon5


Thanks. All of what you have said makes sense.

reply to post by defcon5


I started out as an undefined futurist, then reverted to preterism, proceded to historicism, and came full circle back to futurism, only this time, I see the boundries of the Ages. That is why I put such an emphasis on Dispensationalism.

I have to agree and disagree with you. Yes, Jesus did give us the 'boiling frog' signs that are rapidly accelarating, but we are not in the Tribulation (Time of Jacob's Trouble) yet. After the year 30 AD, the fulfillment of ALL Old Testament prophecy was paused. These prophecies can not happen while the Church's covenant is operative, so they must wait till the Church's removal. The prophecies that Jesus spoke about the desolation of Jerusalem, and the total destruction of the Temple took place between 70 AD and 77 AD. This Dispensational model opposes the idea that 1948-67 were prophetically significant. I feel this is a mimicing of prophecy by man. I believe the Church has its own prophecies, which are not all cannonized, but Israel's prophecies can only happen on Israel's time.

As stated in my other thread, I believe the bible expressed these boundries that separate the Ages.

Jesus comes like a thief in the night at the end of the Tribulation because He cuts the 7 years short for the sake of the elect. This shortening is by a day or so. This means that Jesus is returning 3.5 years after the Abomination of Desolation (minus a day or so).

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Maigret

 

I already explained my stance two posts ago...the one you initially replied to. The four horse men are the four angels that patrol and regulate peace vs war, famine vs prosperity, disease vs health, and the mortality rate. They are seen in the Old Testament in Zech 6:1-8. The four horsemen have been operating on earth since the fall of Adam.

The 5th seal is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. In this case, it is only showing the resurrection of the Church martyrs in heaven. This marks the beginning of the Tribulation. The white robes represent resurrection bodies like that of Jesus at His transfiguration. They were asking how much longer the judgement would be delayed, because the tribulation had not started yet. We will see this crowd gathered with the rest of the Church in heaven holding palm branches in Rev 7:9-17. Rev 7:14 states that they "came away from the tribulation", not "out of" that is a mistranslation (see Rev 3:10 "keep thee FROM the hour of temptation" for context).

The 6th Seal is the return of Jesus at the END of the tribulation (Mat 24:30). This is the shaking of the whole earth. The shaking of the whole earth happened at the Great Flood, and can only happen once more at the END of the Tribulation (see Matt 24:36-39 and Haggai 2:6-9 in conjunction for context.)

The 7th seal is a transition from the summary of Human history to the actuall beginning of the Tribulation. From the 1st Trumpet on, the events are chronological.

The Last Trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is not the same as the 7th trumpet. It is a depiction of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture at the Feast of Trumpets. You cant line the 7 Trumpets of Revelation up with the feast of trumpets, they are 7 separate events.

Your whole hypothesis is dependant on the Rapture theory, and without it, everything you say falls apart.

There is no mention of any previous trumpets to the LAST trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, which IS the 7th and FINAL Trumpet of Revelation. In context, when the mysteries of God and of His Son will be finalised.

Revelation 10:7 God told his secret plans to his servants the prophets, and it will all happen by the time the seventh angel sounds his trumpet."
Revelation 11:15 At the sound of the seventh trumpet, loud voices were heard in heaven. They said, "Now the kingdom of this world belongs to our Lord and to his Chosen One! And he will rule forever and ever!"

reply to post by Maigret


Ive actually revised my understanding of the 5th seal and the great multitude holding the palm branches. I now realize that they are indeed Tribulation martyrs rather than the church. Rev 19:1-6 identifies this multitude as the victims of Babylon, but Rev 19:7-10 distingushes the Church (the bride) from the guests (the multitude and the rest of heaven).

The rapture happens at Rev 4:1. John uses the term 'meta tauta' (meaning 'after this') twice in Rev 4:1; once to make a distinction between the 7 letters (the Church) and the Rapture, and a second 'meta tauta' to distinguish the Rapture from the Tribulation.

The Seals are still a summary, but only of the Tribulation: Seals 1-4 show a theme of conquest, war, famine and death. The 5th Seals is the multitude, the 6th is the return of Christ. The 7th seal is ofcourse a transitions to the start of the actual Tribulation starting with the Trumpets

The rapture must happen for Israel's last 7 years to play out. Revelation makes a clear distinction from the Church Age and Israel's Age. The Rapture is literally described in Rev 4:1.

What makes you doubt the pre-tribulation rapture? I believe its clear cut.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Maigret

 

Ive actually revised my understanding of the 5th seal and the great multitude holding the palm branches. I now realize that they are indeed Tribulation martyrs rather than the church. Rev 19:1-6 identifies this multitude as the victims of Babylon, but Rev 19:7-10 distingushes the Church (the bride) from the guests (the multitude and the rest of heaven).

The rapture happens at Rev 4:1. John uses the term 'meta tauta' (meaning 'after this') twice in Rev 4:1; once to make a distinction between the 7 letters (the Church) and the Rapture, and a second 'meta tauta' to distinguish the Rapture from the Tribulation.

The Seals are still a summary, but only of the Tribulation: Seals 1-4 show a theme of conquest, war, famine and death. The 5th Seals is the multitude, the 6th is the return of Christ. The 7th seal is ofcourse a transitions to the start of the actual Tribulation starting with the Trumpets

The rapture must happen for Israel's last 7 years to play out. Revelation makes a clear distinction from the Church Age and Israel's Age. The Rapture is literally described in Rev 4:1.

What makes you doubt the pre-tribulation rapture? I believe its clear cut.

I doubt very much that there will be any Rapture... It is a theory that makes no sense and has no place in God's plans.

God's overall plan is shown in Exodus 19:5 & 6 "Now therefore, if ye will give ear to hearken unto My voice and keep My Covenant, then ye shall be a special treasure unto Me above all peoples; for all the earth is mine. And ye shall be My kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the sons of Israel."

and in ...

Revelation 9 & 10 'And they sang a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and hast redeemed them unto God by thy blood, out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation and hast made them unto our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign on the earth".'

This verse in Revelation shows that the sacrifice of the Lamb was to redeem those who are to be priests to God and to the Lamb. Then if you read Revelation 20:4 - 6, you will see that it is those who go through the Tribulation are the ones who will reign as that nation of priests.

Rev 20:4 - 6 'And I saw thrones, and those who sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of those that were beheaded for the witness of the Son and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast, neither its image, neither had received its mark upon their foreheads or in their hands; and they shall live and reign with the Messiah the thousand years. This is the first resurrection. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection; on such the second death has no authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Messiah and shall reign with him a thousand years.

reply to post by Maigret


There are two categories of Kings and Priests that exist in the Millennium: the Kings and Priests from the Church Age to rule over the Gentile world, and the Kings and Priests of the Children of Israel, to rule over unified Israel. Both categories are under the rule of Christ.

The Church and Israel are not the same covenant. The Church was called out from the gentiles to be the Bride of Christ when Israel rejected the offer (see the Parable of the 10 Virgins), but God has not forsaken Israel (see the 144k). That is why He saved 7 years for Israel's repentance; the Tribulation.

The Church Age is a parenthetical bubble used to bridge the gap between Israel's 69th and 70th week. This is why the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a REQUIREMENT in God's plan. The picture is clearly painted here:

The Order of Resurrection (1Corinthians 15:20-28)

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

First, Jesus is resurrected as the First Fruits of the First Fruit Harvest, so while almost 2,000 may separate Jesus' resurrection from the Church's resurrection, they are both part of the First Fruits resurrection (Rom 8:22-23, James 1:16-18). We know this, because Jesus Himself was resurrected on the day of the wave offering. The day of Wave Offering was the first day of the Feast of Weeks (ending on Pentacost). The entire Feast of Weeks was a Harvest of the First Fruits (exodus 34:22).

After the First Fruit resurrection comes the resurrection of those who are at Jesus' return. This is Israel's resurrection at the end of the 70th week.

Therefore, the Church and Israel will rule over the mortal Gentiles under Christ for the duration of the Millennium. Then, when Satan is defeated in his final revolution, Jesus will hand the Kingdom back to His Father, having subjected His enemies to Himself.

If you understand the Biblical Calendar, you know that the Rapture is the fulfillment of the First Fruits Resurrection. It is also Jesus' retrieval of His Bride.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


There is neither Jew nor Greek. He has broken down the wall of division creating one new man. Those verses there sure throw a kink in Dispensationalism. There is no division in the body/bride. They are one and the same IMO. Oh yeah there is no Jew according to the flesh. That is done away with. So....

reply to post by zardust


There is neither Jew or Greek in the Church Age; but after the removal of the Church, Israel's 70th week will play out, and the 12 tribes of Israel will be the focus. Hence the 144k (12k from each individual tribe). Romans 11 makes it clear that God will re-address His covenant with Israel in the future.

Romans 11:11-24

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


Where do the kings come from? And why do you expect a 2,000 year gap between the 69th and the 70th weeks of Daniel? Daniel 8:13 & 14 makes it clear it will occur over 2,300 DAYS!



I can tie the 'breaking of the covenant/agreement between the Antichrist and the Israelites' to mid-week or three and a half days to Wednesday morning. I agree that this will tie into the Biblical Festivals... but I'm not sure how.

1,260 days are exactly 180 weeks, so the Two Witnesses, Elijah/aka John and Moses/aka Enoch, will be killed on a Wednesday morning, and lie in the streets of Jerusalem for three and a half days.

These two half-weeks bracket the period of the actual Tribulation; although the Antichrist will be in view and active before this.

reply to post by Maigret


You are interpreting the 70 weeks as literal weeks of days. I see them as weeks of years. The historical fulfillment of Daniel's weeks stopped on the day of Pentacost in 30 AD. That was week 69, or 483 of 490 years. The 70th week is seven years long. That is why Daniel brakes down the 1290 days after the mid-point, and why Revelation gives 42+42 months. It adds up to 7 years.