I seek truth yet it remains hidden..going bananas looking for the right religion (Help me)....

Krazysh0t
reply to post by EviLCHiMP

 

Absolute proof isn't what you or I consider to be good enough. Absolute proof is proof that proves the concept without a shadow of a doubt. Seeing god in a flower is silly and anyone who says that is lying to themselves or mislabeling beauty. Do those same people see god in a plague victim? Both are supposed to be products of god, so if you are able to see god in something of beauty, you should be able to see god in the ugly and depressing as well.

Also hallucination isn't man made. People have been tripping off of mushrooms for a LONG time before scientists came around able to extract the psilocybin in it. Heck there are some theories that Moses and co were tripping while a pretty crazy storm was happening around them when he talked to god on Mt. Sinai and was handed the ten commandments, since a particularly hallucinogenic mushroom grows at the base of the mountain.

Manna

A number of ethnomycologists, including Terence McKenna,[17] have suggested that most characteristics of manna are similar to that of Psilocybe cubensis mushrooms, notorious breeding grounds for insects, which decompose rapidly. These peculiar fungi naturally produce a number of molecules that resemble human neurochemicals, and first appear as small fibres (mycelia) that resemble hoarfrost. Psilocybin, the primary psychoactive molecule in the "Psilocybe cubensis" mushroom, has shown to produce spiritual experiences, with "personal meaning and spiritual significance" when test subjects were evaluated 14 months later.[18] In a psilocybin study from 2006 one-third of the participants reported that the experience was the single most spiritually significant moment of their lives and more than two-thirds reported it was among the top five most spiritually significant experiences. A side-effect from psilocybin consumption is the loss of appetite.[19] The speculation that manna was an entheogen, also paralleled in Philip K. Dick's posthumously published The Transmigration of Timothy Archer, is supported in a wider cultural context when compared with the praise of soma in the Rigveda, Mexican praise of teonanácatl, the peyote sacrament of the Native American Church, and the holy ayahuasca used in the ritual of the União do Vegetal and Santo Daime churches.[20]

edit on 4-3-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

Sir, arguing with you will solve nothing so let's just agree to disagree.

reply to post by Rtardx


Why do yo need a religion..
Nothing can save you from death.

Live your life how you would have others treat you.

reply to post by EviLCHiMP

I can't say for sure what it is

Then it goes to show that we are unable to speak about its nature. Unless, of course, its just another word for the human being.

Why don't you try this on for size, Rtardx.

The only thing that makes something real is its relationship to something else. From a perspective outside this universe, this universe literally doesn't exist. We live in a fictional universe. And although all other universes are fictional to us, the things within those universes actually exist in relation to each other. Any universe you imagine is real, but only from the perspective of things that are inside that universe. There is no connection of any kind between universes, by definition.

Words
reply to post by EviLCHiMP

 

I can't say for sure what it is

Then it goes to show that we are unable to speak about its nature. Unless, of course, its just another word for the human being.

Honestly this could be said about everything we as humans experience.

dominicus
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

Well, would you deny that you currently exist and are experiencing reality? I'm assuming you wouldn't deny it. So similarly in a sense its sort of impossible to deny the God experience, except its nothing like meeting some guy on cloud with harps in the sky. More so like you are an individual drop of water, and finally meet the ocean from where you came from. Its something that is existentially undeniable and something that you remember you had access to, prior to even being born here.....

Well if you look at the "universe is a simulation" theory then yes I can deny that I currently exist and reality is just numbers in a computer.

Plus, reality is subjective. What I am experiencing isn't the same thing as what you are currently experiencing. We may not even see colors or hear sounds the same way. One can argue that since reality is subjective, then reality doesn't really exist. Kind of out there, but just trying to show that even the idea of reality being definite isn't 100% known.

It is an "other being that just happens to be vastly more powerful than we are, so much so that it becomes very hard to comprehend it." Yet we are directly linked to and come from that Being, like a drop of water emerging from and returning to an infinite ocean.

I'm going to take your example and present to you the idea of a sea (ex: Black Sea of Mediterranean Sea). A sea can be viewed as a small part of a larger ocean encircled on most sides by land. What if your ocean in your example is really in fact a sea (or even a river or lake)? This sea is still vast in comparison to the drop of water that helps make it, but is still considerably small in comparison to the ocean that it is a part of as well.

This Being has the sense of being the foundational building block of all of existence, prior to all things and yet within all things. Instead of a resident of the Universe, more so all Universes are residents within this Being.

How do you know? Did it tell you? How do you know it isn't lying? Is it a feeling you get by interacting with it? How do you know that isn't a natural byproduct of a lesser being interacting with a greater being?

Because the experience and access is prior to the mind, prior to thought, prior to illusion, opinion, tricks, images, etc. Direct experience itself is prior to thought. IF you are experiencing thought itself as a direct experience, there is still the division of the experiencer, and the thought which is being experienced. That experiencer can be detached from all experiences and plunged into its Source of existence.

Or in another example, various meditators can stop thinking. So you can think, and not think. When you are not thinking, you are still experiencing hearing, seeing, feeling, breathing all without the filters of thought. And so the "God Experience" is also prior to all filters and opinions, senses, etc

Please read my link on Manna and how a study found that 2/3rds of the participants of a psilocybin study thought they were having a religious experience, yet we know for a fact that it was a chemical reaction in their brain that altered the way they processed information.

Yes, just like you can create hunger in the stomach by elevated levels of physical activity, swimming, exercise. Does that mean hunger isn't real? In many cases of NDE's, the experiencer of this is seeing things in other rooms, or serial numbers on lights just inches from the ceiling, or a tennis shoe on the roof of a hospital, all of which later is confirmed by a third party to be so. The consciousness leaves the body and is non-local, (Something that even some scientists are starting to propose, see Or-Orch theory)

Actually hunger is just a chemical reaction in your stomach that makes you aware that you need to eat. Remove that reaction and we'd starve to death without even knowing it.

I've actually researched NDE's quite a bit since they are fascinating and largely unexplained. I also have withheld judgment on what they truly are since we (humans) do not understand them enough to posit theories on what they are. Heck our hypotheses are still pretty shaky on what they are.

Im saying the divine is real, and science will one day acknowledge this and prove the points of access within, to the divine. Science has yet to figure out what consciousness is, once they do, that will open the doors to the spiritual, though not without fighting, arguments, anger, and a desperation of upholding the status quo that's currently in place in Academia since this will mean completely new books will have to be written, and the old ones tossed out. Let's not forget the Genius Einstein did something similar, as Quantum Physics began to develop (spooky actions at a distance), Einstein wanted no part of it and denied acknowledgement of it because it completely destroyed the rules and confines of how he thought things worked. OF course things work just like he thought, but on a deeper more fundamental level, everything is much more crazier and seemingly illogical/paradoxical, i.e. 2 strings being everywhere & nowhere simultaneously..

Who knows? Maybe you are right, I, however, am not arrogant enough to assume that I know for a fact one way or the other.

Of course, you can access all sorts of things in all sorts of ways.

But when a mysterious experience turns out to be able to be caused by a mundane thing like drugs, can it truly be considered a divine experience or just chemistry doing its thing?

reply to post by EviLCHiMP


Hey, you responded to me first. Also this is the philosophy and metaphysics forums. I thought we were supposed to challenge our accepted ways of thinking and debating these things?

KnightLight
reply to post by Rtardx

 

Religion is for followers, not for truth seekers.

THAT is the answer !! Thank you !
And that is why i always had(and still have) problems with Christianity and Islam.. I AM and always will be a thrutseeker

reply to post by Krazysh0t

Well if you look at the "universe is a simulation" theory then yes I can deny that I currently exist and reality is just numbers in a computer.

But then you can't deny the numbers & the computer, and if its numbers & a computer, it means you can access the source code and the coder in one way or another.

Plus, reality is subjective. What I am experiencing isn't the same thing as what you are currently experiencing. We may not even see colors or hear sounds the same way. One can argue that since reality is subjective, then reality doesn't really exist. Kind of out there, but just trying to show that even the idea of reality being definite isn't 100% known.

Reality is both objective & subjective. Where there is no subjectivity, there is objectivity.

Subjectivity is a universality. With subjectivity, I can go experience a sunrise on an Australian sea shore, tell you about how magnificent it was, and then you can also go on this advice and travel there yourself to experience this sunrise directly. You may not say its as magnificent as I said it was, but the fact is, you directly experienced the sunrise from the same shore that I did.

Furthermore, if there is something prior to our own subjectivity, that can be experienced, in a way in which the subject completely collapses and disappears into this "prior" state........then you can assume that people have accessed this. Yes I agree in retrospect the report of it as an experience is still subjective, but it is similar to the sunrise in Australia.

I'm going to take your example and present to you the idea of a sea (ex: Black Sea of Mediterranean Sea). A sea can be viewed as a small part of a larger ocean encircled on most sides by land. What if your ocean in your example is really in fact a sea (or even a river or lake)? This sea is still vast in comparison to the drop of water that helps make it, but is still considerably small in comparison to the ocean that it is a part of as well.

Even if it was a river, that river will have a source from which it flows, a source that can be traversed & accessed.

How do you know? Did it tell you? How do you know it isn't lying? Is it a feeling you get by interacting with it? How do you know that isn't a natural byproduct of a lesser being interacting with a greater being?

It has those flavors or characteristics.

Those who sit in the sun will say: bright, hot, skin got tan, summer, etc.
Those who swim will say: wet, fun, refreshing, etc.

At the same time it could be asked of you how do you know that you are, that your current views are true, that your current existence/reality isn't lying, that your subjectivity is a feeling from interaction, etc. If there is an underlying objectively absolute reality, then it can be accessed and experienced. If not, then everything is game to chaos and who knows what.

I can say about the Sun, its warm & bright, but that doesn't mean I understand the quantum mechanical intricacies that create warmth & light.

I guess I can see that Being is simultaneously everywhere all at once with no possibility of an end or border insight, because then simultaneous "everywhereness" would loss its value.

Please read my link on Manna and how a study found that 2/3rds of the participants of a psilocybin study thought they were having a religious experience, yet we know for a fact that it was a chemical reaction in their brain that altered the way they processed information.

Yea, I'll check out. I can send you a link of enlightened masters who have tried a variety of these substances and mentioned that they don't hold a candle to that which I am referring to as the Absolute foundation of Being.

When you access and solidify this Being as a permanent experience, it is seen to always be there prior to everything. The experiences from the "manna" had a start, arose, and eventually fell away bringing each of the experiencers back to their baseline subjective realities. There is a big difference between something that is always there and something that comes and goes superimposed over that something that is always there.

Actually hunger is just a chemical reaction in your stomach that makes you aware that you need to eat. Remove that reaction and we'd starve to death without even knowing it. I've actually researched NDE's quite a bit since they are fascinating and largely unexplained. I also have withheld judgment on what they truly are since we (humans) do not understand them enough to posit theories on what they are. Heck our hypotheses are still pretty shaky on what they are.

we can thank a biased academic status quo for labeling certain things as pseudo-science, creating an atmosphere where anyone who dares begin to touch the pseudo, is a heretic outsider at risk of losing funding. ANd yet alot of which was once labeled pseudo in the past, is now part of mainstream science.:

17 Crackpots WHo Were Right

Who knows? Maybe you are right, I, however, am not arrogant enough to assume that I know for a fact one way or the other.

I don't care to be right or wrong, and if being right, to bathe in the arrogance of celebration. All I wanted to know, is if I could recreate or access this God experience that many different paths and philosophers called the experiential absolute Truth. And I did find such a thing, which coincidentally has this very foundational & absolute feel to it, seemingly more real and substantial than our subjectivities and the current world we live in.....but hey, just another label on what many say is an ineffable expression.

But when a mysterious experience turns out to be able to be caused by a mundane thing like drugs, can it truly be considered a divine experience or just chemistry doing its thing?

could be either or.

When you go into various practices/paths/blueprints, they have volumes of books discussing what is and isn't illusion. Many things are chemistry based illusions, but not all things.

Krazysh0t
reply to post by EviLCHiMP

 

Hey, you responded to me first. Also this is the philosophy and metaphysics forums. I thought we were supposed to challenge our accepted ways of thinking and debating these things?

My apologies, it was not my intention to debate your beliefs as you are entitled to your own. These subjects have been debated for as long as man has had an opinion, I honestly don't think there is a definitive answer to any of this, only personal experiences.

dominicus
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

But then you can't deny the numbers & the computer, and if its numbers & a computer, it means you can access the source code and the coder in one way or another.

That depends. Do you consider a graphic depiction of a cat inside a computer a real cat or just a bunch of 1's and 0's?

Reality is both objective & subjective. Where there is no subjectivity, there is objectivity.

Subjectivity is a universality. With subjectivity, I can go experience a sunrise on an Australian sea shore, tell you about how magnificent it was, and then you can also go on this advice and travel there yourself to experience this sunrise directly. You may not say its as magnificent as I said it was, but the fact is, you directly experienced the sunrise from the same shore that I did.

Furthermore, if there is something prior to our own subjectivity, that can be experienced, in a way in which the subject completely collapses and disappears into this "prior" state........then you can assume that people have accessed this. Yes I agree in retrospect the report of it as an experience is still subjective, but it is similar to the sunrise in Australia.

Everything about how you experience the universe is subjective. Light takes time to travel from its source to whatever it is reflected off of to your eye to your brain. Therefore you are living in the past while your brain fills in the blanks.

Even if it was a river, that river will have a source from which it flows, a source that can be traversed & accessed.

Can a drop a water ever know that it is a smaller part of a larger entity that it could never possibly witness in totality?

It has those flavors or characteristics.

Those who sit in the sun will say: bright, hot, skin got tan, summer, etc.
Those who swim will say: wet, fun, refreshing, etc.

At the same time it could be asked of you how do you know that you are, that your current views are true, that your current existence/reality isn't lying, that your subjectivity is a feeling from interaction, etc. If there is an underlying objectively absolute reality, then it can be accessed and experienced. If not, then everything is game to chaos and who knows what.

I can say about the Sun, its warm & bright, but that doesn't mean I understand the quantum mechanical intricacies that create warmth & light.

I guess I can see that Being is simultaneously everywhere all at once with no possibility of an end or border insight, because then simultaneous "everywhereness" would loss its value.

In other words it feels like god.

Actually the sun, in comparison to other bodies in the universe, is rather dim and cold, not to mention small.

Yea, I'll check out. I can send you a link of enlightened masters who have tried a variety of these substances and mentioned that they don't hold a candle to that which I am referring to as the Absolute foundation of Being.

It's really a wikipedia article, but there are always links provided in wiki articles. Though I'm sure I can dig up the actual study if you want

When you access and solidify this Being as a permanent experience, it is seen to always be there prior to everything. The experiences from the "manna" had a start, arose, and eventually fell away bringing each of the experiencers back to their baseline subjective realities. There is a big difference between something that is always there and something that comes and goes superimposed over that something that is always there.

Yes I'm aware of enlightened masters saying that meditation is better than drugs.

we can thank a biased academic status quo for labeling certain things as pseudo-science, creating an atmosphere where anyone who dares begin to touch the pseudo, is a heretic outsider at risk of losing funding. ANd yet alot of which was once labeled pseudo in the past, is now part of mainstream science.:

17 Crackpots WHo Were Right

I didn't mean to imply that pseudo-science is wrong or shouldn't be studied with the term I used. I am completely in favor of studying any and all phenomenon.

I don't care to be right or wrong, and if being right, to bathe in the arrogance of celebration. All I wanted to know, is if I could recreate or access this God experience that many different paths and philosophers called the experiential absolute Truth. And I did find such a thing, which coincidentally has this very foundational & absolute feel to it, seemingly more real and substantial than our subjectivities and the current world we live in.....but hey, just another label on what many say is an ineffable expression.

I just don't like saying that anything is 100% true.

could be either or.

When you go into various practices/paths/blueprints, they have volumes of books discussing what is and isn't illusion. Many things are chemistry based illusions, but not all things.

Unless reality is an illusion.

ETA: sorry about the quick responses, I have a bus to catch.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

That depends. Do you consider a graphic depiction of a cat inside a computer a real cat or just a bunch of 1's and 0's?

apples & oranges.... the cat depiction is not self aware, nor like us, is it able to question, test, and find out if indeed its reality is an illusion. We can do so, and if we can figure out the source code, then we can also manipulate this reality to certain degrees.

Everything about how you experience the universe is subjective. Light takes time to travel from its source to whatever it is reflected off of to your eye to your brain. Therefore you are living in the past while your brain fills in the blanks.

When they do find out what consciousness is, they may say its nonlocal and prior to the brain. Then your statement would collapse.

There's nothing wrong with subjectivity. It is a real and true thing, part of reality and part of how reality is experienced. What I am saying, is that each person's subjectivity arises from a Universal Source that can be accessed & experienced.

Can a drop a water ever know that it is a smaller part of a larger entity that it could never possibly witness in totality?

It was symbolism to describe what the experience is like. Whether or not a drop of water is conscious or not is up for HUGE philosophical debates. Us being conscious individuals is really not that much up for debate except in the "this is all holographic illusion" theory.

In other words it feels like god.

Even that's a misnomer. That word "God" carries so much subjective weight...and yet the word of something is not the same as the actual something, so either way we are back to ineffable.

Would you rather directly experience winning a million dollars, or would you rather have the concepts, words, discussions of what that would be like?

Actually the sun, in comparison to other bodies in the universe, is rather dim and cold, not to mention small.

I was referring to its nature relative to the subjective human experience from Earth. Universal traits can be described about it.

I just don't like saying that anything is 100% true.

Well, if there is an Absolute existential truth, then by its very nature it is 100% true regardless of what we like or don't like to say.

Unless reality is an illusion. ETA: sorry about the quick responses, I have a bus to catch.

If it is an illusion, then that means there is a real reality that is behind it

reply to post by Rtardx


If you deem it necessary to make an academic study of comparative religion in order to choose one of your liking, I would suggest after that then search your heart.

Understand that tradiitonal religion is only the exoteric ( outward )form of truth.

The esoteric paths( Forms of Buddhism, Zen, Taoism, Sufism, Kabbala, Vedanta and others) are deeper than ordinary religion. They go into the inner meaning of religion.

They will challenge you more since they don’t claim, as exoteric and dogmatic outer religions do, that they have the truth.

They, the esoteric paths, only claim that they are seeking the truth and the religions are only a vehicle to the truth not the end in itself as standard exoteric religions claim.

Buddha said: “When over the river discard the boat”

Muhammad said: “Know yourself and you will know your Lord”

Jesus said: “The Kingdom of God is within you”

To me, all expression of the inner religion which is THE BEST PATH, IMO.

reply to post by Alundra


But to the wise religion is only a tool to use to find the truth.
Not the other way around as the standard religious people use the truth equation. Where they claim: we have our religion and it is the truth.

The true seeker says: I follow the best of religion as an aid to the truth.

To me the best of religion is to cultivate the virtues and be a seeker of truth not a believer that one has the truth.

Religion was originally designed to be a medicine and over the years the believers themselves have corrupted the medicine with ethnocentric poison, sectarianism, bigotry and dogmatic ignorance.

reply to post by Rtardx


Organized religion is a construct of humanity. If you notice, many of the same parables, and stories and cultural mores of most of religion resonate throughout many of them. Why is this? I believe it's because there is a basic truth, a whole Godhead -- a supreme spirit -- that is connected to the whole of humanity. I found my 'religion' living in the desert just north of Four Corners. We can speak to the animals and they to us. Somewhere along the line, we evolved so distant as to loose this connection to the Earth, but it is not forever lost for those will seek it.

YOUR truth does not have to have a label. I believe that God carries many names in the various human languages, and speaks to his/her/its people in their own voice. You do not have to subscribe to the ceremonies and beliefs of ANY religion. Some people label those like me as 'Universalists'. Well, that doesn't sound so bad to me. I remain open to the One, regardless of what name is used, and I never feel closer than when in the wilds.

We praise artists by their works. The 'sculpture' we all live in is surely the greatest and most profound works ever witnessed by the creatures of the Earth.

You do not have to name your beliefs, you only have to live them.

reply to post by Rtardx

Once you are able to rely on no one else but yourself, especially in spiritual matters, you will be free. People will want you to follow their paths, perhaps because they are lonely upon them, but that is only because they are in bad company. Be good company for yourself.

reply to post by Tearman


I don't know how it may help this op
You know what you are saying is actually the truth, imo.

Organized religion is disorganized thinking: just because one believes something makes it a truth. Illogical.

It’s like a doctor giving you some medicine and you don’t take it but you spend your time going around arguing with people that you have the best medicine you haven’t even taken!

Of course this is an analogy…the medicine of religion people don’t take is to love your fellow human.

reply to post by Rtardx

Oh man this sounds so familiar. I totally hear you. The search ... knowing that there is something from personal experiences with the metaphysical .... searching more ... accepting different religions/philosophies but then after a while finding out they were wrong as well. It's maddening, isn't it? I can only tell you what I've figured out ....

- Nothing is what 'they' say.
- God isn't Who 'they' say he is.
- I"m tired of guilt and the maddening search ... so I gave up.
- I'm tired of not being able to figure it all out.
- No one on Earth has the truth and it's impossible to find out.

A few months back I finally gave up the search. The answer can't be found here.

I no longer believe any of the people who claim they know the truth about the answers to life.
None of them really do know. They think they do. But they do not.

You asked for advice ... here's mine. For the sake of your sanity don't look anymore.
Just live in the moment and try to get the best out of it.
It's not what we want to do ... but we have no other choice.
Like I said ... it's maddening to think about. So don't think about it.

FlyersFan
reply to post by Rtardx

 

Oh man this sounds so familiar. I totally hear you. The search ... knowing that there is something from personal experiences with the metaphysical .... searching more ... accepting different religions/philosophies but then after a while finding out they were wrong as well. It's maddening, isn't it? I can only tell you what I've figured out ....

- Nothing is what 'they' say.
- God isn't Who 'they' say he is.
- I"m tired of guilt and the maddening search ... so I gave up.
- I'm tired of not being able to figure it all out.
- No one on Earth has the truth and it's impossible to find out.

A few months back I finally gave up the search. The answer can't be found here.

I no longer believe any of the people who claim they know the truth about the answers to life.
None of them really do know. They think they do. But they do not.

You asked for advice ... here's mine. For the sake of your sanity don't look anymore.
Just live in the moment and try to get the best out of it.
It's not what we want to do ... but we have no other choice.
Like I said ... it's maddening to think about. So don't think about it.

edit on 3/4/2014 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

searching and sanity are a tough thing to balance.