GOOD NEWS ATS - No longer will I make religious threads.

You know, guys/gals, what's really interesting here is that the OP has received a warm welcome with his offering, and the thread is still going!!

I don't think any of us who peruse this forum (or the others) want it to be devoid of opposing points of view; we just want it to be civil. Condemning and ridiculing are not civil, and not what this forum is about.

Here the man came and opened a vein. Good on him, I say.

reply to post by wildtimes

The TRUTH is that we don't know.

Sure. But then how do you know what truth is if truth is what you don't know?

reply to post by Aphorism

But then how do you know what truth is if truth is what you don't know?

What I know for sure (and about all I know) is this:

The TRUTH is not determined by a show of hands.

We just don't know. If and when we do put it all together, it will make sense to EVERYONE....regardless of nationality, socio-economic status, education, upbringing, etc.

Kind of like LAUGHING and SMILING. Universally understood gestures. A human behavior. (Also crying and rage - all human characteristics.)

To find the common denominator, we have to let go of "my way is right" kind of thinking.

reply to post by adjensen


Are you really a Christian if you only believe the parts of the bible that science hasn't disproved yet? Can you really call yourself a Christian if you don't believe the bible is the literal truth. I've read sun tzus art if war and agree with a lot of the concepts doesn't mean it's my religion. So how can someone agree with the concepts in the bible " love thy neighbor exc." but not buy into the facts and consider themselves a Christian?

I grew up a white southern baptist, so almost everyone I've ever met at least started off a Christian. Every girlfriend, friend and best friend. So I have nothing against the rank and file. It's the ones who spread lies and half truths to sell there product and keep there clientele.

I got the impression your a minister. If so do you preach the flaws in the bible as well as the moral truths? Or do you preach it's the defacto word of god, but know the earth wasn't created in seven days, nor was eve made from Adams rib.

adjensen
reply to post by Woodcarver

 

If you could answer these questions you could change the world.

If you could incorporate all of your questions in one posting, you could make answering easier

As I said, it is deduced logically, it need not be observed.

If we have two things, physical reality and a creator, and we postulate that the former was created by the latter, then the latter cannot be in the former prior to its creation -- that is a logical impossibility, like a "square circle." Secondly, if we postulate that the former did not exist prior to its creation, then the creator cannot be of the same "stuff" as the creation, because the existence of the same thing (physicality) would preclude its creation.

In other words, if the creator was physical, that requires that physical reality also exist whenever he does, and thus, he cannot be the source of it. If you wish to say that there are two physical realities, that which a physical creator exists in, and this one, that we exist in, that solves your problem (well, sort of -- it just moves the question of real creation one step back,) but that is not what the Abrahamic religions teach, it's more in line with Gnosticism.

All science and experimentation starts with observation. The first point of the scientific theory. Otherwise you are in the field of philosophy. Thomas aquinas was a philosopher and he lived in the 1200's. We have come a long way since then.

Your next points require that you presuppose that go exists. I am asking you why you assume this to be true. This is circular reasoning. And the main source of frustration in these forums. You also have ignored all of my questions.

wildtimes
You know, guys/gals, what's really interesting here is that the OP has received a warm welcome with his offering, and the thread is still going!!

I don't think any of us who peruse this forum (or the others) want it to be devoid of opposing points of view; we just want it to be civil. Condemning and ridiculing are not civil, and not what this forum is about.

Here the man came and opened a vein. Good on him, I say.

edit on 2/18/14 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

completely agreed.
I truly enjoy these convos.

reply to post by wildtimes

The TRUTH is not determined by a show of hands.

It is actually.

Knowledge and truth is a human affair. There is no knowledge or truth outside of human existence.

reply to post by wildtimes


Good call wild times! OP you really should post anything your heart desires. Sometimes you'll get # Down, sometimes your post will make the home page. We're all passionate about "our" issues so I think if it gets heated. It's the price we pay. Well worth it I think.

reply to post by ArtemisE

Can you really call yourself a Christian if you don't believe the bible is the literal truth.

Do you think that all Christians are Fundamentalists? You're that far removed from it that you seriously believe that?

No, most Christians do not believe that the Bible is the literal word of God. Some do, yes, and those are the ones that people who are not Christians latch onto to paint us all with the same brush.

I got the impression your a minister.

lol. No, I'd probably be the world's worst minister -- I'm a software engineer.

Aphorism
reply to post by wildtimes

 

The TRUTH is not determined by a show of hands.

It is actually.

Knowledge and truth is a human affair. There is no knowledge or truth outside of human existence.

That is an interesting and thought-provoking take on it.

Aphorism
reply to post by wildtimes

 

The TRUTH is not determined by a show of hands.

It is actually.

Knowledge and truth is a human affair. There is no knowledge or truth outside of human existence.

If all life on this planet were suddenly gone, would the planet still exist? I would say that it would. Do we agree that rabbits and roses exist? I would think we would. Does 2+2=4? I think we would agree.

These are universal truths.

ArtemisE
Are you really a Christian if you only believe the parts of the bible that science hasn't disproved yet? Can you really call yourself a Christian if you don't believe the bible is the literal truth.

The vast majority of Christians do not take the entire bible literally. There is allegory and myth and history and re-written history and a whole lot of other things all tossed together. With the exception of the fundamentalists, most Christians recognize that fact.

reply to post by Aphorism

It is actually.

Certainly "laughing and smiling" are a 'show of hands' (also sorrow and rage).....

but in this thread the topic is the "religious" approach, and how the board responds to it. When there is a universal 'belief', things will improve. As long as there is division, scorn, willful ignorance, and prejudice, it won't happen.

reply to post by Aphorism


No truth is truth. The earth is round. The earth orbits the sun. Gravity pulls mass towards mass. That's true weather humanity is there to see it or not.

Your talking about perception. Perception is in the eye of the beholder. With red sunglasses the sky looks red. No matter how many people with red glasses on you have sky watching, no matter how much faith they have in a red sky will change the fact the sky is blue.

reply to post by Woodcarver

All science and experimentation starts with observation.

When did I say that I was demonstrating something scientifically? I specifically said, at least twice, that it was a logical deduction, logic being a branch of mathematics and philosophy, not science. It is a reasoned conclusion, not an observed one, and I never claimed otherwise.

Your next points require that you presuppose that go exists. I am asking you why you assume this to be true.

Because you pre-supposed it in your original post -- you said that "If a creator god were real he would necessarily have to be a physical entity," and I was refuting from that claim. If you want to retract your pre-supposition, then I guess that the discussion is over, given that we're talking about a creator and its relation to its creation… no creator, nothing to talk about.

You also have ignored all of my questions.

I'm sorry, but your habit of posting multiple times to the same post has likely resulted in my missing them. If you would like to restate them, I'll have a go.

adjensen
reply to post by ArtemisE

 

Can you really call yourself a Christian if you don't believe the bible is the literal truth.

Do you think that all Christians are Fundamentalists? You're that far removed from it that you seriously believe that?

No, most Christians do not believe that the Bible is the literal word of God. Some do, yes, and those are the ones that people who are not Christians latch onto to paint us all with the same brush.

I got the impression your a minister.

lol. No, I'd probably be the world's worst minister -- I'm a software engineer.

How do you determine what to take literally and what is metaphor? How would you defend your views to a fundamentalist?

reply to post by Woodcarver

How would you defend your views to a fundamentalist?

Hoooh boy. Okay, guys...I'ma go sit in the corner for a while.

I hope the OP feels better.

reply to post by adjensen


Lol my mistake. I'm just saying are they REALLY Christians then or are they more agnostics. Not just with Christians ,all major religions. I know fundamentalists wouldn't consider y'all one.

reply to post by adjensen


Take a deep breath, calm down, and rejoin the convo. Go back to my questions. Think about them and retort. I'll wait.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Romans 1:16

Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace. Acts 18:9b

Ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence. Isaiah 62:6b

If our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. 2 Corinthians 4:3

Keep the faith friend. It is wise not to cast your pearls before swine, but if the spirit moves you to testify don't hesitate because some may find it objectionable.