GOOD NEWS ATS - No longer will I make religious threads.

reply to post by Aphorism


Why would you think there is no truth to be found?

reply to post by Woodcarver

Why would you think there is no truth to be found?

Truth and knowledge is a human affair. Truth isn't found, it is created.

reply to post by Woodcarver

If god is incomprehensible, how can you make so many claims about his properties?

I believe that the term I used was "incomprehensible, at least in part," but the only "property" I noted was his lack of a physical being, and I cited logic, not knowledge, for that.

If you've an explanation for how physical reality can come into existence through a physical entity that existed prior to physical reality, I'd sure love to hear it.

reply to post by adjensen


So would every other theist.

I do not believe that an entity created the universe though. I believe that it is all natural and inevitable based on natural chemical reactions. What we know about the physical world and how different forms of matter interact with eachother is a testament to this. The universe and all matter seems to follow certain laws, and based on these laws, life and intelligence is inevitable.

reply to post by adjensen


How can you make even that claim though? Where is your evidence?

reply to post by Woodcarver

How can you make an observation of a non physical thing? How would a non physical thing differ from something that doesnt exist at all? And how could you tell the difference?

reply to post by Woodcarver


If you could answer these questions you could change the world.

My point being, this is where the argument for a creator god fails. It is mired in contradictions. And why theists must rely on faith. Faith is not a path to truth. It is an excuse when logic and reason fail to present a decent body of evidence. You would not need faith if there was a reason to believe.

You would not bring up faith as an argument for any other topic.

reply to post by Aphorism


Could you give an example of a truth that was created?

Aphorism
reply to post by Woodcarver

 

Why would you think there is no truth to be found?

Truth and knowledge is a human affair. Truth isn't found, it is created.

I disagree. At some level, there is a universal consistency which may constitute as "truth". A law that holds true for any situation which involves those elements. The trick is to find the pattern and comprehend it. One may look at a river and see nothing but chaos, while another may look at the river and take note of every swirl and eddy which creates the most minute bubbles and shifts in the materials carried in the water, as well as the matter beneath the water. There is a reason behind every single interaction in that river - and our quest is to find the one solitary equation which will accurately predict the behavior of that water in every given moment it is observed. When we have that, we will possess the spirit of the river.

Now apply that to the universe, and we will finally know where the universe came from, where it's going, and where we fit into that plot. That's what I call "truth". If it seems unrealistic, just remember that the Wright brothers weren't always heralded as the pioneers we recognize them for today. And while some may claim that reducing the river - or the universe - to a complex mass of numbers spinning at the speed of light undermines the beauty of the phenomena itself, I feel that understanding the entire process which drives that act of nature gives us all the more reason to appreciate it. You could compare it to watching a man climb a mountain rather than just seeing a picture of him posing at the top. I just thought I'd explain my thoughts on it to you. Maybe you'll be able to appreciate the Holy Grail at the universe.

AfterInfinity

Aphorism
reply to post by Woodcarver

 

Why would you think there is no truth to be found?

Truth and knowledge is a human affair. Truth isn't found, it is created.

I disagree. At some level, there is a universal consistency which may constitute as "truth". A law that holds true for any situation which involves those elements. The trick is to find the pattern and comprehend it. One may look at a river and see nothing but chaos, while another may look at the river and take note of every swirl and eddy which creates the most minute bubbles and shifts in the materials carried in the water, as well as the matter beneath the water. There is a reason behind every single interaction in that river - and our quest is to find the one solitary equation which will accurately predict the behavior of that water in every given moment it is observed. When we have that, we will possess the spirit of the river.

Now apply that to the universe, and we will finally know where the universe came from, where it's going, and where we fit into that plot. That's what I call "truth". If it seems unrealistic, just remember that the Wright brothers weren't always heralded as the pioneers we recognize them for today. And while some may claim that reducing the river - or the universe - to a complex mass of numbers spinning at the speed of light undermines the beauty of the phenomena itself, I feel that understanding the entire process which drives that act of nature gives us all the more reason to appreciate it. You could compare it to watching a man climb a mountain rather than just seeing a picture of him posing at the top. I just thought I'd explain my thoughts on it to you. Maybe you'll be able to appreciate the Holy Grail at the universe.

edit on 18-2-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Thank you. You have a beautiful mind.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I disagree. At some level, there is a universal consistency which may constitute as "truth". A law that holds true for any situation which involves those elements. The trick is to find the pattern and comprehend it. One may look at a river and see nothing but chaos, while another may look at the river and take note of every swirl and eddy which creates the most minute bubbles and shifts in the materials carried in the water, as well as the matter beneath the water. There is a reason behind every single interaction in that river - and our quest is to find the one solitary equation which will accurately predict the behavior of that water in every given moment it is observed. When we have that, we will possess the spirit of the river.

Now apply that to the universe, and we will finally know where the universe came from, where it's going, and where we fit into that plot. That's what I call "truth". If it seems unrealistic, just remember that the Wright brothers weren't always heralded as the pioneers we recognize them for today. I just thought I'd explain my thoughts on it to you. Maybe you'll be able to appreciate the Holy Grail at the universe.

It's an entirely abstract notion. I think it was Aquinas or someone who said truth is an "approach to equality". In that way, sure, we can "find truth", and imagine the spirit of the river. But then all it takes is someone observing the same phenomena, the same river, and to completely change its "spirit."

reply to post by Aphorism

But then all it takes is someone observing the same phenomena, the same river, and to completely its spirit.

What?

BTW, I also disagree with you. AI's post makes sense to me.
There is a universal truth.
The various religions just don't present it.

reply to post by Woodcarver


How could something nonmaterial like you are describing god to be, make something material.

This is an argument of something from nothing.

reply to post by Woodcarver

If you could answer these questions you could change the world.

If you could incorporate all of your questions in one posting, you could make answering easier

As I said, it is deduced logically, it need not be observed.

If we have two things, physical reality and a creator, and we postulate that the former was created by the latter, then the latter cannot be in the former prior to its creation -- that is a logical impossibility, like a "square circle." Secondly, if we postulate that the former did not exist prior to its creation, then the creator cannot be of the same "stuff" as the creation, because the existence of the same thing (physicality) would preclude its creation.

In other words, if the creator was physical, that requires that physical reality also exist whenever he does, and thus, he cannot be the source of it. If you wish to say that there are two physical realities, that which a physical creator exists in, and this one, that we exist in, that solves your problem (well, sort of -- it just moves the question of real creation one step back,) but that is not what the Abrahamic religions teach, it's more in line with Gnosticism.

reply to post by wildtimes

There is a universal truth.

Where? This is no different than invoking deities.

reply to post by kalunom


Athiests seek knowledge, understanding, and the same inner peace we all seek. We're defiantly not any better at the inner peace thing then anyone else. Athiests just arnt willing to throw logic and reason to the wind in exchange for faith in a mainly, historically at least debunked manuscript.

It's pretty well known that, at least with the famous religious scientists, that they have all had a spiritual awakening then went to the lab to try and find proof of it. Whenever interviewed they almost always get asked that question. Always have the same answer.


I'm not trying to be mean. The problem i have with those that try to mix Christianity and science. Is they will find an anomaly in evolution or what have you. Then they try and cram what they want into the hole they think they have found. If evolution was wrong then so is of modern medicine, gene theropy, and pretty much most of the geneic type stuff. But there not wrong we've grown sheep from cells and are slowly unlocking the human genome. If evolution was wrong NONE of this would work.

There's no way the "scientists" who spout the intelligent design garbage don't realize this. I really hate watching good people be fooled to extort money and power for people who know there only selling a fairy tale.

I'm pretty sensitive on the subject, but I guess most are.

reply to post by Aphorism

Where? This is no different than invoking deities.

Yes, it is different.
It's an open-minded inquiry. Plus, part of my response was due to the lack of clarity in your post.


People who have "made up their minds" generally shut down anything that challenges their beliefs.

"People cling even tighter to their beliefs when shown evidence against them."

The TRUTH is that we don't know. And we may never know. We aren't equipped.
That's why it bugs me so much when people claim they have "all the answers" and pooh-pooh further inquiries.

OP needs to understand that, what you experienced might be yours alone, and if others experience the same thing, they might call it as something else(chemicals? synaptics?).

Yet, if you are making post about "saving people" through you experience, you gonna have some resistance. Because now you are getting on high horse and looking down on people like they are below you.

Trust me there are worse posters on these forums that post religious stuff, i barely seen yours, looking at your join date, no wonder.

Go ahead and post you stuff, but don't try to "teach" people what is right and how they can be redeemed.

reply to post by ArtemisE

The problem i have with those that try to mix Christianity and science.

I presume that you mean people who confuse Christianity with science, because there are a lot of Christians who are scientists, including myself. The Big Bang Theory, for example, was formulated by a Catholic priest, and the Catholic church is very much into astronomy and cosmology, because we think that science helps us to learn more about God and his creation.

I would agree that those who dismiss (or attempt to mess up) science, because it conflicts with what the Bible says or what their pastor preaches, are off the dime. Just don't assume that all Christians see things that way, because we don't.

reply to post by Woodcarver


Damn wood couldn't have said it better myselff. Well played! I think if you wanted to create a way to control people, especially in anchient times, religion and faith are literally perfect.



Do what we tell you because there's an invisible republican watching your every move. What proof!?! You ask for proof!?! Well there's no proof in fact all logic and reason points another way. You don't need proof, you need faith! :p