India hails polio-free 'milestone' - thanks to vaccines

Pardon?


Thanks for the patronisation.
However it still doesn't address the FACT that the only "scientists" who have an alternative opinion are not in the field of vaccination study.
The ones who understand and know the field well don't have this alternative opinion.

So I stand by my original point.
You presented a falsehood as a fact and then tried to detract from it by being both pedantic and patronising.

No I didn't, you are just claiming that without proof.

Show us every Virologist and prove they all agree on every issue.
You can't because they don't.
There are conflicting arguments in this field as in all fields of study.

I didn't patronize you per se either.

Anyways...
Prove that virologists don't argue ever.
Also prove that arguments aren't based on opinions about things.

There's no reason to be mad about it, everyone's wrong from time to time, I forgive you.
But can you forgive yourself ?

paraphi

FriedBabelBroccoli
No actually, if you read the journals which I linked to the virus in the OPV has been show to mutate.

Er, I don't think anyone is disputing this fact, and you don't need to read "the journals" to know this is the case. What is the case, however, is that the rates of people suffering from the disease has fallen like a stone and the world is on the way to elimination of the disease. This is news that confounds the pseudoscientists and anti-vaccine brigade who don't seem to want to see progress.

Regards

Really? Because Antigod just did;

Superbugs arise as a result of antibiotic abuse. Nothing to do with vaccinations. Anyone who knows anything about medicine knows this.

Infections causing paralysis in both vaccinated and non vaccinated cases are and were less than 1%.

I agree that harmful infection rates are plummeting like a stone from less than 1% to less than 1%.

The stats show a very a different story than what you are presenting. This whole thread I have been challenging the misinterpretations that people have concerning the all encompassing term of "vaccines." People who don't study up on the subject have demonstrated that they don't have much of a clue about what is going on or how for that matter.

They are presenting the case that vaccination is the only method to which such results could be achieved and that anything else is heresy. The UN was awarding Indonesians money for their excellent "planned parenthood" activities which were later demonstrated to involve sterilization vaccination programs on the East Timor peoples under the guise of tetanus vaccines.

The people in here cheering the bland term vaccination need to pay more attention to exactly what vaccines they support. Not all vaccines are good and on occasion have been exposed as a front for subversive activities. There is a lot of money at play especially in the flu-vaccine trade. Canadian virologists demonstrated that the bird flu vaccines they were giving increased the odds of serious infection which has merely ignored and downplayed by CDC officials. Other CDC chief virologists have agreed that flu vaccines are essentially pointless with a potential 1%-4% chance of increased immunity (check the sources).

The anti-heretic antics of the pro-vaccine crowd are merely refusing to acknowledge anything counter to their beliefs, just like some of the anti-vaccine crowd refuse to believe evidence counter to their beliefs.

If you are pro-vaccine then just get your shot and let those who don't go on about their lives.

We all die eventually.

-FBB

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

If you are pro-vaccine then just get your shot and let those who don't go on about their lives.

You see though, that's the thing; people who are pro-vaccine can rarely let those who aren't "go on about their lives."

Some of them feel as if the Universe has already died, and made them God, so that they may dictate through force how others must live their lives. On this last 'vaccine' thread, they went as far as to say that all vaccinations should be mandatory, and if you resist, you deserve to have your children taken away from you.... These kinds of thoughts are just atrocious...

Most of the 'pro-vaccine' crowd, feel that the 'anti-vaccines' are ultimately against eradication of wild and deadly diseases, when nothing could be further from the truth. I, personally, do not trust vaccines because of a number of reasons. However, the ultimate reason I would say I am against it, is because I believe that there are more holistic and natural ways to fight and cure the diseases, rather than injecting dead or live viruses, into our bodies.

Just my two cents...

muzzleflash

Pardon?


Thanks for the patronisation.
However it still doesn't address the FACT that the only "scientists" who have an alternative opinion are not in the field of vaccination study.
The ones who understand and know the field well don't have this alternative opinion.

So I stand by my original point.
You presented a falsehood as a fact and then tried to detract from it by being both pedantic and patronising.

No I didn't, you are just claiming that without proof.

Show us every Virologist and prove they all agree on every issue.
You can't because they don't.
There are conflicting arguments in this field as in all fields of study.

I didn't patronize you per se either.

Anyways...
Prove that virologists don't argue ever.
Also prove that arguments aren't based on opinions about things.

There's no reason to be mad about it, everyone's wrong from time to time, I forgive you.
But can you forgive yourself ?

Your post from earlier states:
"Fact : Many people have mixed opinions about vaccines, especially scientists who study them directly.
Reality usually is in the gray-zone rather than 'always this way' or 'always that way'. "

I think before you go any further you need to qualify this.
Obviously since you have stated this you have direct evidence yes?
You will also need to explain what this "gray-zone" is that you talk about, not in general terms but in terms specific to vaccination.

Or are you going to use semantics again?
And lose the patronisation, it really doesn't become you.

VeritasAequitas
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

If you are pro-vaccine then just get your shot and let those who don't go on about their lives.

You see though, that's the thing; people who are pro-vaccine can rarely let those who aren't "go on about their lives."

Some of them feel as if the Universe has already died, and made them God, so that they may dictate through force how others must live their lives. On this last 'vaccine' thread, they went as far as to say that all vaccinations should be mandatory, and if you resist, you deserve to have your children taken away from you.... These kinds of thoughts are just atrocious...

Most of the 'pro-vaccine' crowd, feel that the 'anti-vaccines' are ultimately against eradication of wild and deadly diseases, when nothing could be further from the truth. I, personally, do not trust vaccines because of a number of reasons. However, the ultimate reason I would say I am against it, is because I believe that there are more holistic and natural ways to fight and cure the diseases, rather than injecting dead or live viruses, into our bodies.

Just my two cents...

edit on 27-1-2014 by VeritasAequitas because: (no reason given)

Wrong, anti-vaxxers are anti-science and pro-misinformation.
It's not thought that anti-vaxxers are against eradication of wild disease although that is a side-effect of their misinformed belief system.
If you have a safe, reproducible and verifiable way of preventing the spread and infection by viruses which is effective in the vast majority of a population please let us know what it is.
Saying that you "believe" isn't good enough though nor are is anecdotal evidence.
Saying that you don't trust vaccines leads me to believe that your prevention is little more than a fairy story though.

From en.wikipedia.org...

In 1949 Klenner published in and presented a paper to the American Medical Association detailing the complete cure of 60 out of 60 of his patients with polio using intravenous sodium ascorbate injection[8] Galloway and Seifert cited Klenner's presentation to the AMA in a paper of theirs.[9] Generally, he gave 350 to 700 mg per kilogram body weight per day. He described giving up to 300,000 milligrams (mg) per day of neutral pH sodium ascorbate. Klenner published 27 medical papers, most about vitamin C applications for over 30 diseases, two about treatment of severe neuropathies including multiple sclerosis using aggressive supplementation.[10] He wrote a 28th paper ca 1980, an unpublished update about MS treatment. It was posthumously summarized by Lendon Smith in the Clinical Guide to the Use of Vitamin C.

Hmmm...60 out of 60 is pretty convincing - why has the medicine industry ignored this for 70 odd years? If Vitamin C can cure and prevent polio and other infectious diseases then why can't we look into this and other nutritional means of dealing with disease. Why the obsession with vaccination?

reply to post by saneguy


Because anybody can use natural medicines, nutrients & vitamins to cure illness and disease, when it is used in the proper amounts. You can not create a monopoly, profit, or generate revenue on something that you can not patent. Vaccines generate revenue for the pharmaceutical industries that make them.

VeritasAequitas
reply to post by saneguy

 

Because anybody can use natural medicines, nutrients & vitamins to cure illness and disease, when it is used in the proper amounts. You can not create a monopoly, profit, or generate revenue on something that you can not patent. Vaccines generate revenue for the pharmaceutical industries that make them.

I agree, that is a big part of it. Also probably alot of just plain ego and stubborness.

FriedBabelBroccoli
Really? Because Antigod just did;

Lost me with this one! What did Antigod do?

FriedBabelBroccoli
Superbugs arise as a result of antibiotic abuse. Nothing to do with vaccinations. Anyone who knows anything about medicine knows this.

Indeed. Strange you should bring this up when not mentioned, but well done. You don't even need to know medicine, just basic biology.

FriedBabelBroccoli
I agree that harmful infection rates are plummeting like a stone from less than 1% to less than 1%.

Nothing like statistics to mislead.

Polio cases have decreased by over 99% since 1988, from an estimated 350 000 cases then, to 223 reported cases in 2012. The reduction is the result of the global effort to eradicate the disease.

www.who.int...

Regards

saneguy
From en.wikipedia.org...

In 1949 Klenner published in and presented a paper to the American Medical Association detailing the complete cure of 60 out of 60 of his patients with polio using intravenous sodium ascorbate injection[8] Galloway and Seifert cited Klenner's presentation to the AMA in a paper of theirs.[9] Generally, he gave 350 to 700 mg per kilogram body weight per day. He described giving up to 300,000 milligrams (mg) per day of neutral pH sodium ascorbate. Klenner published 27 medical papers, most about vitamin C applications for over 30 diseases, two about treatment of severe neuropathies including multiple sclerosis using aggressive supplementation.[10] He wrote a 28th paper ca 1980, an unpublished update about MS treatment. It was posthumously summarized by Lendon Smith in the Clinical Guide to the Use of Vitamin C.

Hmmm...60 out of 60 is pretty convincing - why has the medicine industry ignored this for 70 odd years? If Vitamin C can cure and prevent polio and other infectious diseases then why can't we look into this and other nutritional means of dealing with disease. Why the obsession with vaccination?

Because vaccination works, and Klenner aside no-one has actually managed to replicate his reported successes.

Heck if it is that great why don't people just dose themselves and get cured - why isn't that happening??

any doctor or scientist could make an instant nobel prize for themselves, wealth and fame by replicating this - and there are certainly enough doctors and scientists out there critical of "the establishment" that you'd think would have seized the opportunity.

Personally I think it is because Klenner was a fraud - that has always been the case when 1 person can manage miraculous results but no-one else seems to be able to, and he certainly fits the bill in that respect (so far)

paraphi

FriedBabelBroccoli
Really? Because Antigod just did;

Lost me with this one! What did Antigod do?

FriedBabelBroccoli
Superbugs arise as a result of antibiotic abuse. Nothing to do with vaccinations. Anyone who knows anything about medicine knows this.

Indeed. Strange you should bring this up when not mentioned, but well done. You don't even need to know medicine, just basic biology.

I probably lost you with this one because Antigod is the one who stated what you attributing to me . . . the claim the a vaccine doesn't cause a virus to mutate is patently false and I have already provided links to the studies which have demonstrated this.

But if you are going to start nonsense like this there is nothing you will accept as scientific fact that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions of reality.

FriedBabelBroccoli
I agree that harmful infection rates are plummeting like a stone from less than 1% to less than 1%.

Nothing like statistics to mislead.

Polio cases have decreased by over 99% since 1988, from an estimated 350 000 cases then, to 223 reported cases in 2012. The reduction is the result of the global effort to eradicate the disease.

www.who.int...
Regards

edit on 27/1/2014 by paraphi because: (no reason given)

Infection rates by themselves mean nothing. It is the results of the infections which cause the negative reactions. The estimated 350,000 cases are subject to different criteria than are today's. Don't believe me? Go and look them up for yourself as this has also been covered to not include 40,000+ cases of polio-like symptoms discovered during India's screening process.

This is not the cut and dry issue you seem to think it is.

-FBB

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Personally I think it is because Klenner was a fraud - that has always been the case when 1 person can manage miraculous results but no-one else seems to be able to, and he certainly fits the bill in that respect (so far)

Or that they are failing to properly utilize his method and technique; whether through negligence or willful purpose, I can not say..

reply to post by VeritasAequitas


Any study should be able to follow his technique and any differences should be obvious - assuming he documented them well enough of course.

Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by VeritasAequitas

 

Any study should be able to follow his technique and any differences should be obvious - assuming he documented them well enough of course.

No doubt; but that is to say that his technique is followed properly and not in the half-ass fashion that has become predominant in trials of natural medicine.

I would have to say a good forty percent or more of the cases that were claimed to be fraudulent, were based on faulty application of the science. I tend to think this is why many independent researchers come to the same conclusions, but happen to be in contrast of what the 'officials' say. GMO's would probably be a good example.

"Official" sources say that there is no harm in GMO's; but researchers find that it does cause tumors in lab rats, etc. This is 'explained' away as using a breed that is known to be prone to tumors, but I think that this is a bit of a rationalization or shirking of responsibility for their actions and words.

People who have no financial incentive in the outcome of a trial are the ones who will tend to be unbiased and follow the study to the letter... Unfortunately in a world where we live like the people in Fight Club (not the fighters), people who can not be bought through their greed or financial incentives is in very short supply.. Saying is, money makes the world go around, and it also buys the people that live in it...

Just my opinion however, so no need to go on one of those "conspiracy nut" rants.

VeritasAequitas
"Official" sources say that there is no harm in GMO's; but researchers find that it does cause tumors in lab rats, etc. This is 'explained' away as using a breed that is known to be prone to tumors, but I think that this is a bit of a rationalization or shirking of responsibility for their actions and words.

Sorry - you lost me there - the ONE study that did this was fraudulent because it did not use proper controls - the type of rat used was not the issue. It is well documented here on ATS

You cannot use something like this to blame "officials" - it was sheer duplicity on the part of the "researchers".

Proper documentation of research is what defends us against fraud from science in all respects - both from "big science" trying to make profits when they shouldn't, and also from "alternative science" scamming us with meaningless BS.

Aloysius the Gaul

saneguy
From en.wikipedia.org...

In 1949 Klenner published in and presented a paper to the American Medical Association detailing the complete cure of 60 out of 60 of his patients with polio using intravenous sodium ascorbate injection[8] Galloway and Seifert cited Klenner's presentation to the AMA in a paper of theirs.[9] Generally, he gave 350 to 700 mg per kilogram body weight per day. He described giving up to 300,000 milligrams (mg) per day of neutral pH sodium ascorbate. Klenner published 27 medical papers, most about vitamin C applications for over 30 diseases, two about treatment of severe neuropathies including multiple sclerosis using aggressive supplementation.[10] He wrote a 28th paper ca 1980, an unpublished update about MS treatment. It was posthumously summarized by Lendon Smith in the Clinical Guide to the Use of Vitamin C.

Hmmm...60 out of 60 is pretty convincing - why has the medicine industry ignored this for 70 odd years? If Vitamin C can cure and prevent polio and other infectious diseases then why can't we look into this and other nutritional means of dealing with disease. Why the obsession with vaccination?

Because vaccination works, and Klenner aside no-one has actually managed to replicate his reported successes.

Heck if it is that great why don't people just dose themselves and get cured - why isn't that happening??

any doctor or scientist could make an instant nobel prize for themselves, wealth and fame by replicating this - and there are certainly enough doctors and scientists out there critical of "the establishment" that you'd think would have seized the opportunity.

Personally I think it is because Klenner was a fraud - that has always been the case when 1 person can manage miraculous results but no-one else seems to be able to, and he certainly fits the bill in that respect (so far)

Not sure where you get your information, Klenner's work has been replicated thousands of times by doctors Cathcart, Levy, Riordan to name a few.

saneguy
[
Not sure where you get your information, Klenner's work has been replicated thousands of times by doctors Cathcart, Levy, Riordan to name a few.

I haven't seen any such studies - can you link to them?

Aloysius the Gaul

saneguy
[
Not sure where you get your information, Klenner's work has been replicated thousands of times by doctors Cathcart, Levy, Riordan to name a few.

I haven't seen any such studies - can you link to them?

These aren't studies, these are REAL doctors treating patients. Some doctors have more initiative and compassion than others - they find out what works and they use it. Others just do what they are told I guess.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Many claimed that Séralini's conclusions were impossible to justify given the statistical power of the study and that Sprague-Dawley rats were not appropriate for a lifetime study (as opposed to a shorter toxicity study) because these rats have a high tendency to get cancer over their lifespan (one study found over 80% got cancer under normal conditions).

Orly?

reply to post by muzzleflash


I agree with the divide and conquer effect which you have pointed out, and I also apologize to all members of this thread for my behavior on the weekend a couple pages back as I obviously had a few too many and barely remember typing any of it even though I know that is a crumby excuse which holds no merit.

Back to divide and conquer...this is a tool they use on us for many topics...but in my opinion this is a topic that is difficult not to take sides on. In your defense, we should be able to discuss these things amicably while staying civil and sharing ideas so we can gain knowledge from our various skill sets whatever they may be as I am sure no matter who you are you can have a valid opinion on this issue and have something worthy to present.

And yes, OP is notorious for this type of behavior and perhaps I am just as guilty for stooping to his level by using his "up yours" comment in my signature but I love a good joke and sorry I find it funny

My conclusion, ATS should be able to discuss any topic as a "family" without the need for personal insults and angry posts...trust me I know I am guilty of much of this so I am not pleading innocence.

This vaccine issue is difficult to discuss due to the zealots on both sides of opinion but somewhere in the middle there is an ugly truth that most people are not ready to accept no matter what facts/evidence they are presented with. I have done my fair share of research and even though I am not an expert I am very confident that my views on this issue are valid for various reasons. That being said, I must keep an open mind and value other's opinions but it is difficult to do at times depending how it is being expressed.

Be safe my friends.