A proposed technical means of generating UFO-type liminal experiences.

Excellent topic OP! (S+F)

Are you proposing Dr. Michael “Kit” Green for a AMA thread here on ATS?

meaningless333
Excellent topic OP! (S+F)

Are you proposing Dr. Michael “Kit” Green for a AMA thread here on ATS?

...if that could be done, I would certainly be interested. That and Jacque Vallee. I'd love to have a beer with the guys and talk phenomelogy - but I'll probably have to settle for a AMA if it could happen. :p

Glad you liked it.

Bybyots
reply to post by The GUT

 

Does the "liminal state" part a veil between human and non-human intelligence,

From the OP, it seems that we are talking about a temporal lobe seizure here, as the basis for this liminal state; have I got that right?

Something like it. I'm not certain it is a seizure per say vs. entrainment of the neuron firing in a certain area of the brain. I believe that this can be accomplished by a variety of EM techniques, but I'm not certain what could be responsible for doing so. Reverse engineering would seem to be possible on the basis of the data available to the public - the black project guys seem to have stuff that could settle the matter one way or another.

If I had funding, I believe I might be able to get some interesting data if nothing else. One can dream.

Also relevant: www.insidescience.org...

I'm not convinced at all about the telepathic and other woo stuff of UFO's.

However, consider this hypothetical: "warp drive" is real, or more concretely there exist physical devices which influence anomalous and profound influences on spacetime and electromagnetic fields.

Combine with the known effects of electromagnetic fields on brains (and the unknown effects of spacetime warp or new physics on brains) to induce unusual states.

Hypothesis: the high-strangeness of certain UFO encounters may be a hallucinogenic consequence of warp drive physics on unshielded brains.

The appearence of "aliens" or similar things could be an induced cognitive illusion of temporarily degraded brain functioning---they were just ordinary humans the whole time but the "ET" appearance is the lowest level "eigenface" or baseline brain template.

In some way, then the experience of warp drive might resemble various neurological and mental illnesses in some ways, the former being induced brain degradation from physical fields and the others by disease and organic processes.

mbkennel
I'm not convinced at all about the telepathic and other woo stuff of UFO's.

However, consider this hypothetical: "warp drive" is real, or more concretely there exist physical devices which influence anomalous and profound influences on spacetime and electromagnetic fields.

Combine with the known effects of electromagnetic fields on brains (and the unknown effects of spacetime warp or new physics on brains) to induce unusual states.

Hypothesis: the high-strangeness of certain UFO encounters may be a hallucinogenic consequence of warp drive physics on unshielded brains.

The appearence of "aliens" or similar things could be an induced cognitive illusion of temporarily degraded brain functioning---they were just ordinary humans the whole time but the "ET" appearance is the lowest level "eigenface" or baseline brain template.

In some way, then the experience of warp drive might resemble various neurological and mental illnesses in some ways, the former being induced brain degradation from physical fields and the others by disease and organic processes.

edit on 7-1-2014 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-1-2014 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)

Oh, I'm not talking about the woo stuff here.

The 'telepathic' stuff seems to relate to electromagnetic interference in the witness's brain. The published stuff on UFO propulsion all suggest that this can arise from the same techniques used to mess with MHD propulsion, or wacky field stuff. The ET appearance might also be a construct from birth memories...

Here's a abduction case that has EM written all over it.


Plus here's the potential key to the Pascagoula case.

reply to post by 1ofthe9

“In addition, meditation or prayer, as, for example, the repetition of a mantra, is perhaps the strongest verbal analogue of kindling, and can generate specific temporal lobe lability".

Something like it. I'm not certain it is a seizure per say vs. entrainment of the neuron firing in a certain area of the brain.

I don't know which of the books you cited that quote comes from but lability, especially the way it is related to the brain in this case, is another way of describing a seizure or the instability that precedes a seizure. As in, temporal lobe seizure.

I don't know man; I'll cut to the chase here: I'm interested in where you are going with this because we are talking about a "liminal state" that is common to those that experience, sleep paralysis, UFO abductions, contact with various "higher orders of disincarnate intelligence" and of course epilepsy. We may as well throw migraine sufferers in as well.

The kindling model came from trying to understand epilepsy, and it has fascinated me since learning about it because it has to do with a feature common to all of the experiences that I mentioned above, and some I probably forgot, and that feature is the aura.

Just going off the cuff here; if you check out the temporal lobe seizure link to WikiPedia you can read a little about the "aura" and simple partial seizures there. I agree (from experience) with the Wiki author in that with SPS the aura is not an indication that a seizure is coming, it is the seizure. So, yeah, inducing temporal lobe lability will likely bring on all the usual effects of a temporal lobe seizure.

And that seems to me what Persinger and your other citations are getting at, that in that in-between liminal state brought on by temporal lobe seizure that something called "whole information" exists and would be available to all in its unadulterated form if only the right frequency could be found, and conditions in the temporal lobe changed so that the frequency could be induced.

I don't think that there can be one technology that can be counted on to do that for all brains, what these guys are suggesting. I could definitely imagine one thing that could somehow tune itself to any given brain and adjust itself accordingly, but its efficacy would be limited by our own understanding of how that might work and I don't think that we are anywhere close to understanding the brain that well.

As far as the occult stuff is concerned, I don't know what Persinger expects to find when he gets there but just because he can find it doesn't mean that the "information" will be any more accessible to him. I think that even if he did get the whole thing just right for himself that whatever information he brought back would be just about as useful as it would have been if he had, indeed, eaten peyote.

I do think that it's a very important line of questioning that you've brought up, but mostly in the sense that the liminal state that Persinger is describing seems to be this aura that is experienced by so many people that report strange experiences, and not so much in the sense that he seems to be interested in the usual "barnstorming heaven" scheme.

Thanks for posting , I'm glad that you were able to get it all up without further hassle. I hope that you have your dream lab someday.

mbkennel
I'm not convinced at all about the telepathic and other woo stuff of UFO's.

Have you heard Persinger talk about telepathy and other woo stuff?

In some way, then the experience of warp drive might resemble various neurological and mental illnesses in some ways, the former being induced brain degradation from physical fields and the others by disease and organic processes.

That doesn't jive with my UFO experiences. I've seen several UFOs, even up-close, and yes I've had telepathic contact. UFO experiences do something to peoples brains that make them more psychic for the rest of their lives, even after any "physical fields" are long gone.

reply to post by BlueMule


So if you were asked which came first, the liminal-state or the UFO, you would say, "The UFO"?

Bybyots
reply to post by BlueMule

 

So if you were asked which came first, the liminal-state or the UFO, yo would say, "The UFO"?

I don't know what I would say. I don't know if there's even an answer. If a liminal state is properly induced then the practitioner is in an altered state of consciousness. Altered states are conducive to psi, and psi transcends time and space. So, psi is acausal... retro-causal. So causality as we know it goes out the window along with chicken-and-egg questions.

Bybyots
reply to post by 1ofthe9

 

“In addition, meditation or prayer, as, for example, the repetition of a mantra, is perhaps the strongest verbal analogue of kindling, and can generate specific temporal lobe lability".

Something like it. I'm not certain it is a seizure per say vs. entrainment of the neuron firing in a certain area of the brain.

I don't know which of the books you cited that quote comes from but lability, especially the way it is related to the brain in this case, is another way of describing a seizure or the instability that precedes a seizure. As in, temporal lobe seizure.

I don't know man; I'll cut to the chase here: I'm interested in where you are going with this because we are talking about a "liminal state" that is common to those that experience, sleep paralysis, UFO abductions, contact with various "higher orders of disincarnate intelligence" and of course epilepsy. We may as well throw migraine sufferers in as well.

The kindling model came from trying to understand epilepsy, and it has fascinated me since learning about it because it has to do with a feature common to all of the experiences that I mentioned above, and some I probably forgot, and that feature is the aura.

Just going off the cuff here; if you check out the temporal lobe seizure link to WikiPedia you can read a little about the "aura" and simple partial seizures there. I agree (from experience) with the Wiki author in that with SPS the aura is not an indication that a seizure is coming, it is the seizure. So, yeah, inducing temporal lobe lability will likely bring on all the usual effects of a temporal lobe seizure.

And that seems to me what Persinger and your other citations are getting at, that in that in-between liminal state brought on by temporal lobe seizure that something called "whole information" exists and would be available to all in its unadulterated form if only the right frequency could be found, and conditions in the temporal lobe changed so that the frequency could be induced.

I don't think that there can be one technology that can be counted on to do that for all brains, what these guys are suggesting. I could definitely imagine one thing that could somehow tune itself to any given brain and adjust itself accordingly, but its efficacy would be limited by our own understanding of how that might work and I don't think that we are anywhere close to understanding the brain that well.

As far as the occult stuff is concerned, I don't know what Persinger expects to find when he gets there but just because he can find it doesn't mean that the "information" will be any more accessible to him. I think that even if he did get the whole thing just right for himself that whatever information he brought back would be just about as useful as it would have been if he had, indeed, eaten peyote.

I do think that it's a very important line of questioning that you've brought up, but mostly in the sense that the liminal state that Persinger is describing seems to be this aura that is experienced by so many people that report strange experiences, and not so much in the sense that he seems to be interested in the usual "barnstorming heaven" scheme.

Thanks for posting , I'm glad that you were able to get it all up without further hassle. I hope that you have your dream lab someday.

I don't think we're talking about some kind of Akashic Record type thing so much as a natural radio-frequency network between minds...if I've been reading everything right. This might make for a interesting shortcut to uploading consciousness. The occult stuff could act as some kind of coordinate system like Vallee's CRV idea to connect the experiencer to a 'meme'/collection of imagery in the supraconsciousness network.

I don't even know if I'm barking up the right tree, but the technical implications are fascinating to think about. I'm a history major, so its unlikely I'll ever get a chance at seeing this put to the experiment - but a reader might be able to ask the right questions to the right people. Great discussion guys, lets keep digging.

Bybyots
reply to post by BlueMule

 

So if you were asked which came first, the liminal-state or the UFO, you would say, "The UFO"?

edit on 7-1-2014 by Bybyots because: . : .

I'm inclined to think that the UFO phenomena can cause it via the data thats been collected over the years; indeed it might be its objective if there is a non-human intelligence behind it. It seems to be able to insert information into our heads...or it attempts to. The CIA have been working on this stuff(Pulharich and ELF) since the 1950's - and Persinger's work seems to be in line with this. If we really are in a big electromagnetic network, then its interesting to think about memes - specifically how you would inject them into the noosphere. Rays of illumination indeed.

Even with no UFO's, Persinger's work could represent a major Singularity risk...

edit: The last minute of that video... Jesus. Maybe that could neatly tie up all the UFO reverse-engineering, and stuff. I actually just had an idea. I'm going to head over to the park, light a smoke, and pump binural tones into my brain. Listening to them in a house full of electromagnetically noisy computers/phones might dampen the results...

No Adamski saucers unfortunately.

That being said, I've got some ideas on refining the binaural approach. It was a certainly interesting experience - after a few minutes the tones seemed to merge...and disruptions to the binaurals by passing cars was really apparent. The generator I was using on my phone wasn't very accurate in its frequency range (I used 7hz), and an urban area with powerlines/wifi/etc might not work as great as say...rural Saskatchewan or something.

I'll see if I can figure out how to rig up a crude faraday cage, or something. That might help. Damn shame there isn't a software solution to brain monitoring stuff like EEG. That would be even more useful...

reply to post by 1ofthe9


We are in the labyrinth. As I understand things, the brain is a kind of filter. Experiences do not originate in the brain, but they are filtered and contextualised by the brain. So, if an experience can be induced that does not mean it is only in the brain. It may be a question of knocking out the filter and exposing the mind to real things. This seems to be how drugs work. They knock out the filter and free consciousness from its attachment to the brain.

Experiments with these "brain beams" can be misleading. If these beings are real they can intervene in these experiments to swing the results their own way and lead the researcher to conclude what they want them to conclude.

reply to post by Bybyots


No thoughts worthy enough to add to the thread but thanks for the link to aura.

1ofthe9
No Adamski saucers unfortunately.

That being said, I've got some ideas on refining the binaural approach. It was a certainly interesting experience - after a few minutes the tones seemed to merge...and disruptions to the binaurals by passing cars was really apparent. The generator I was using on my phone wasn't very accurate in its frequency range (I used 7hz), and an urban area with powerlines/wifi/etc might not work as great as say...rural Saskatchewan or something.

I'll see if I can figure out how to rig up a crude faraday cage, or something. That might help. Damn shame there isn't a software solution to brain monitoring stuff like EEG. That would be even more useful...

Do you have a negative ion generator

reply to post by 1ofthe9


Huh,

this is turning out to be really interesting. I watched the whole Persinger thing that BlueMule posted last night and I'm really glad that I did. Thanks BlueMule.

I don't think we're talking about some kind of Akashic Record type thing so much as a natural radio-frequency network between minds...if I've been reading everything right.

Right, I get that now that I watched the thingy. He doesn't bring up anything of the sort and I was really intrigued by the idea of utilizing the Earth's electromagnetic field as a sort of network infrastructure. There is something about that that just seems right to me in that it would mean that the network has always existed and we have probably been using it, too...Anywho, I'm sure you know where that goes; it's really exciting to think about.

I am interested in computers and information science so it gets me to thinking about how all that data might be structured and I wonder about access control.

This might make for a interesting shortcut to uploading consciousness.

Yeah, that singularity thing is pretty sticky too. Computers are only as smart as we are, so even if we could "upload consciousness" somehow, our systems would only understand it as far as we do. Listening to Persinger I started wondering about the nature of the information that would be available and what it would mean that it would all be contained in a closed loop, confined by the fact that it is just a human brain-network. That got me to wondering about what information comes from outside of that closed loop and how we might even begin to verify that it comes from without the loop and not from within.

The occult stuff could act as some kind of coordinate system like Vallee's CRV idea to connect the experiencer to a 'meme'/collection of imagery in the supraconsciousness network. I don't even know if I'm barking up the right tree, but the technical implications are fascinating to think about.

*I'm a history major, so its unlikely I'll ever get a chance at seeing this put to the experiment -

You are making me think here of the old concept of an egregore. An egregore would be like a collective thought construct, a body of information and knowledge that is fed and cultivated by those that align themselves with it. Some authors, like Kenneth Grant I think, referred to them as currents. A really powerful one that I know of is Arthurian Legend and its body of literature and media. I like your thinking around this, and it makes me wonder again at access control and what it would mean if egregoric updates were available to subscribers on a super-fast network.

I'm inclined to think that the UFO phenomena can cause it via the data thats been collected over the years; indeed it might be its objective if there is a non-human intelligence behind it. It seems to be able to insert information into our heads...or it attempts to.

The CIA have been working on this stuff(Pulharich and ELF) since the 1950's - and Persinger's work seems to be in line with this. If we really are in a big electromagnetic network, then its interesting to think about memes - specifically how you would inject them into the noosphere. Rays of illumination indeed.

Well, I'm going to be the hold-out, I think that in almost all cases the liminal state precedes the "contact" experience. I think maybe now that it opens up some sort of network connection so that our personal daemon or Holy Guardian Angel or whatever can provide updates and information. Ohterwise it seems that some outside agency is trying to open a line and I mentioned how that would be tough to verify. And I don't think it has to be either or, I'm happy with the impossible paradox that it could be us and something else at the same time. I dunno.

The memes are injected via stories and narrative. In my opinion after following many of these threads and thinking it through, this is why the emphasis is no longer on electronic mind-control but on stuff like Linguistics and Natural Language Processing.



*Don't be so sure, you could easily find yourself as part of a multi-specialty research team barking right up the very trees you are most interested in.

Hey have you thought of a name for this endeavor? I was thinking Liminal Trek.

EnPassant
reply to post by 1ofthe9

 

We are in the labyrinth. As I understand things, the brain is a kind of filter. Experiences do not originate in the brain, but they are filtered and contextualised by the brain. So, if an experience can be induced that does not mean it is only in the brain. It may be a question of knocking out the filter and exposing the mind to real things. This seems to be how drugs work. They knock out the filter and free consciousness from its attachment to the brain.

Experiments with these "brain beams" can be misleading. If these beings are real they can intervene in these experiments to swing the results their own way and lead the researcher to conclude what they want them to conclude.

edit on 8-1-2014 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

Bingo. This phenomena seems to be capable of actively manipulating our subjective reality. The recent John Keel collections has at least two mentions of cases involving mass entrancement by something. Very neat way of camouflaging if its intelligent - and also suggests that we have to take the same approach military intelligence would in that situation.

mbkennel

However, consider this hypothetical: "warp drive" is real, or more concretely there exist physical devices which influence anomalous and profound influences on spacetime and electromagnetic fields.

Combine with the known effects of electromagnetic fields on brains (and the unknown effects of spacetime warp or new physics on brains) to induce unusual states.

Not only could some sort of exotic drive technology put out EM, you could get even more odd things like time rate gradients, or areas around the drive with altered permeability or permittivity, causing all sorts of oddball prop rate problems with neural signals. A sharp enough gradient could cause signal rates to propagate faster on one side of your head than the other, it might not take a lot of fiddling around with that to cause mental disturbances.

Not only that, you could also disturb electronics. And it would cause that ripply distortion around the thing that looks like heat waves off pavement. Or at higher amplitudes, you could get mirage effects that might make it look like it was changing reflectivity, shape or color depending on the angle you viewed it at. Might even glow, who knows what it looks like if you were emitting, say, IR from waste heat inside a bubble of artificially increased C, when it crossed the field boundary it would shift up in frequency, might even be visible.

Bybyots
reply to post by 1ofthe9

 

Huh,

this is turning out to be really interesting. I watched the whole Persinger thing that BlueMule posted last night and I'm really glad that I did. Thanks BlueMule.

I don't think we're talking about some kind of Akashic Record type thing so much as a natural radio-frequency network between minds...if I've been reading everything right.

Right, I get that now that I watched the thingy. He doesn't bring up anything of the sort and I was really intrigued by the idea of utilizing the Earth's electromagnetic field as a sort of network infrastructure. There is something about that that just seems right to me in that it would mean that the network has always existed and we have probably been using it, too...Anywho, I'm sure you know where that goes; it's really exciting to think about.

I am interested in computers and information science so it gets me to thinking about how all that data might be structured and I wonder about access control.

This might make for a interesting shortcut to uploading consciousness.

Yeah, that singularity thing is pretty sticky too. Computers are only as smart as we are, so even if we could "upload consciousness" somehow, our systems would only understand it as far as we do. Listening to Persinger I started wondering about the nature of the information that would be available and what it would mean that it would all be contained in a closed loop, confined by the fact that it is just a human brain-network. That got me to wondering about what information comes from outside of that closed loop and how we might even begin to verify that it comes from without the loop and not from within.

The occult stuff could act as some kind of coordinate system like Vallee's CRV idea to connect the experiencer to a 'meme'/collection of imagery in the supraconsciousness network. I don't even know if I'm barking up the right tree, but the technical implications are fascinating to think about.

*I'm a history major, so its unlikely I'll ever get a chance at seeing this put to the experiment -

You are making me think here of the old concept of an egregore. An egregore would be like a collective thought construct, a body of information and knowledge that is fed and cultivated by those that align themselves with it. Some authors, like Kenneth Grant I think, referred to them as currents. A really powerful one that I know of is Arthurian Legend and its body of literature and media. I like your thinking around this, and it makes me wonder again at access control and what it would mean if egregoric updates were available to subscribers on a super-fast network.

I'm inclined to think that the UFO phenomena can cause it via the data thats been collected over the years; indeed it might be its objective if there is a non-human intelligence behind it. It seems to be able to insert information into our heads...or it attempts to.

The CIA have been working on this stuff(Pulharich and ELF) since the 1950's - and Persinger's work seems to be in line with this. If we really are in a big electromagnetic network, then its interesting to think about memes - specifically how you would inject them into the noosphere. Rays of illumination indeed.

Well, I'm going to be the hold-out, I think that in almost all cases the liminal state precedes the "contact" experience. I think maybe now that it opens up some sort of network connection so that our personal daemon or Holy Guardian Angel or whatever can provide updates and information. Ohterwise it seems that some outside agency is trying to open a line and I mentioned how that would be tough to verify. And I don't think it has to be either or, I'm happy with the impossible paradox that it could be us and something else at the same time. I dunno.

The memes are injected via stories and narrative. In my opinion after following many of these threads and thinking it through, this is why the emphasis is no longer on electronic mind-control but on stuff like Linguistics and Natural Language Processing.

*Don't be so sure, you could easily find yourself as part of a multi-specialty research team barking right up the very trees you are most interested in.

edit on 8-1-2014 by Bybyots because: . : .

Fantastic response. I'm excited that someone else has been thinking along similar lines. I'd be more overt in the wording of these things in some cases, but I'm trying to be as technical as possible and not freak some people out.

I suspect the weird computational linguists that ATS unearthed are important then folks might think. I also believe that we need to consider Jacque Vallee's computer science background in light of the stuff he has been involved with. He was involved in ARPANET stuff, a number of early Silicon Valley start ups, and developed the coordinate remote viewing technique. I believe that there might just be a certain convergence of interest going on here.

Unfortunately I'm not optimistic about my chances of actually making a living puzzling this stuff out. Its a fun hobby, but they just don't fund people looking into this stuff anymore. I'm not much of a writer either, which is a shame given the amount of books that could be written about the stuff I've found digging around in this stuff in my spare time. In the end, the best I can hope for is a nod from someone up the food chain. If anything else, and the puzzle isn't solved in my lifetime, then I want to ensure a continuation of knowledge for those who come after.