Clearing the air on homosexuality (from a Christian perspective)

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


Who gives a toss what a 2000 year old book says, written not by God but man, It was a different time, yes the bible has good stuff in but also hateful stuff in which has no place in modern society.
The persecution of gays by the religious is evil and not from God but you lot.
Therefore you are evil in the disguise of being good.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


And yet I don't see many threads on ATS bashing people living out of wedlock!! or for wearing mixed fibres clothing or asking for men who look at woman with lust in their heart not to be put to death.

And so I go back to my original comment referring to most Christians as "Cafeteria Christians" taking parts of the Bible that suits them and ignoring anything else. If Christians want to believe their holy book word for word then as the original OP said, look into your own lives before judging others which I believe is also against god when judging others!

And I don't want to get into the translation of a word with you, i already told you what my believe is and you have yours.

flammadraco
And yet I don't see many threads on ATS bashing people living out of wedlock!! or for wearing mixed fibres clothing or asking for men who look at woman with lust in their heart not to be put to death.

Fair point, and the original purpose of this thread, let's not forget, was to tilt the balance away from the tendancy to regard homosexuality as Public Enemy No 1.
It is on Paul's list, but not even the first item on the list.

What is the obsession this particular brand of 'christians' have with gay people? Sheesh, get over it already, all you're doing is making the rest of us think you're just deeply in the closet.

When you start campaigning as vociferously for people who work on a Sunday to be put to death maybe then you'll have some credibility when you start banging on about the gays being the evil. But until then, you're just windowshopping and picking the bits of the Bible you want to believe, and ignoring the bits you don't want to believe.

And I'm fairly certain God has some pretty strong views on that according to the book. Or do those bits get conveniently ignored too?

DISRAELI

flammadraco
And yet I don't see many threads on ATS bashing people living out of wedlock!! or for wearing mixed fibres clothing or asking for men who look at woman with lust in their heart not to be put to death.

Fair point, and the original purpose of this thread, let's not forget, was to tilt the balance away from the tendancy to regard homosexuality as Public Enemy No 1.
It is on Paul's list, but not even the first item on the list.

Ah, I missed that as being the point amidst all the caps lock.

Because yes I quite agree, the Bible itself is really not that concerned about gay people at all, there's a lot of other things that are clearly of much greater concern to the policy makers.

I wonder how many members of Westboro Church are members on ATS

reply to post by boymonkey74


Anyone who says the Bible is junk and I don't care what it says is welcome to do so. That of course has nothing to do with the OP, or anything I have said.

flammadraco
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

And yet I don't see many threads on ATS bashing people living out of wedlock!! or for wearing mixed fibres clothing or asking for men who look at woman with lust in their heart not to be put to death.

And so I go back to my original comment referring to most Christians as "Cafeteria Christians" taking parts of the Bible that suits them and ignoring anything else. If Christians want to believe their holy book word for word then as the original OP said, look into your own lives before judging others which I believe is also against god when judging others!

And I don't want to get into the translation of a word with you, i already told you what my believe is and you have yours.

Here you go, look at my last post, where I said any and all sex prior to marriage is wrong. Of course you don't want to get into the translation, your position is untenable.

DISRAELI

flammadraco
And yet I don't see many threads on ATS bashing people living out of wedlock!! or for wearing mixed fibres clothing or asking for men who look at woman with lust in their heart not to be put to death.

Fair point, and the original purpose of this thread, let's not forget, was to tilt the balance away from the tendancy to regard homosexuality as Public Enemy No 1.
It is on Paul's list, but not even the first item on the list.

First, last, in the middle, it's all the same. Lying or homosexual sex .. no difference.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


Your views are also untenable, your faith is based on a book that was written or created over 300 years after Jesus died by men who could not even agree on what should and should not be added to the Bible. At the time the bible was created as a book it could not even be agreed upon if Jesus was in fact Christ as some factions of Christianity at the time wanted John the Baptist to be Christ.

So anything else that has been translated since (many times) and changed by man is not really my responsibility to translate one word that you believe means lying in bed with a man and I say means something else.

Your bible is filled with inconsistency's and I have mentioned a few below but have several others if you manage to answer these and with the aforementioned in mind I cannot understand why so many Christians are so hung up on the LGBT community. I know you started this thread to "Clear the Air" but in my mind it was just an excuse to bash gay people again.

How many stalls and horsemen?

1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

The sins of the father

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Fowl from waters or ground?

GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?

MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."

Jesus' last words

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Modern Christianity originates for the most part in the words of two men: Jesus of Nazareth and Saul of Tarsis.

Saul was trained as a Pharisee -- a Jewish religious sect that adhered very strictly to the purity rules contained in the Torah (the modern Old Testament).

All fundamentalist Christian condemnation of homosexuality is based either in the words of Saul or in the purity rules of the Old Testament.

Jesus had a different opinion.

While debating with a group of Pharisees about marriage regulations in the purity rules (Torah-OT), Jesus said (Matthew 19:11-12, NIV):

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

The phrasing "eunuchs who were born that way" had a very specific yet coded meaning in ancient Middle Eastern cultures as well to those who had been trained in Judaic religious traditions (Jesus as well as the Pharisees (including Saul)), and this understanding was specifically recorded years later in the Talmud. These "natural eunuchs" were men put in charge of households and the women/wives/concubines of the household because they were not interested in sex with women.

This specifically does not refer to castration or impotence but were "born that way."

In many translations, Jesus calls this difference a "gift."

I encourage everyone to "Deny Ignorance" and read the references for yourselves. (Source 1, Source 2, Source 3)

Some of the posts in this thread remind me of this scripture, and so if the shoe fits......

2 Peter 3:14-17

Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15  Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you according to the wisdom given him, 16  speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17  You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard so that you may not be led astray with them by the error of the lawless people and fall from your own steadfastness.

Blue_Jay33
Some of the posts in this thread remind me of this scripture, and so if the shoe fits......

2 Peter 3:14-17

Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15  Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you according to the wisdom given him, 16  speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17  You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard so that you may not be led astray with them by the error of the lawless people and fall from your own steadfastness.

edit on 5-1-2014 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)

Me too! Like the ones that quote Leviticus, Romans and 1 Corinthians against Gay people and totally ignore what Jesus Christ said about loving others, judging not, and treating others with respect!

Amen!

Blue_Jay33
Some of the posts in this thread remind me of this scripture, and so if the shoe fits......

2 Peter 3:14-17

Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15  Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you according to the wisdom given him, 16  speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17  You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard so that you may not be led astray with them by the error of the lawless people and fall from your own steadfastness.

edit on 5-1-2014 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)

That same scripture could also be used towards those Christians who judge others, so many threads by Christians on this site who in the eyes of god would not been seen as "Spotless, unblemished and in peace" that being said I hope real Christians realise that judging the LGBT community is actually going against god.

reply to post by Gryphon66

The phrasing "eunuchs who were born that way" had a very specific yet coded meaning in ancient Middle Eastern cultures as well to those who had been trained in Judaic religious traditions (Jesus as well as the Pharisees (including Saul)), and this understanding was specifically recorded years later in the Talmud. These "natural eunuchs" were men put in charge of households and the women/wives/concubines of the household because they were not interested in sex with women.

This specifically does not refer to castration or impotence but were "born that way."

"Natural eunuchs" have absolutely NOTHING to do with homosexuality and has everything to do with the ability to reproduce. Not everyone is born with the ability to reproduce. I'm sure there were people born with abnormal genitalia back in that day too.

GENERAL EYES
Now I'm just one of those progressive evil heathen Catholics, but it's pretty damn simple from where I sit....regardless of scripture and regardless of the Churches "official stance" on the issue of homosexuality.

God is Omniscient, God is Omnipresent. He is the Divine Creator of ALL things, and is therefore present in all things....and people. If we look for Divinity in ALL of creation, we shall find it. It is only when we set up human rules and limitations to Gods Manifestations that we perceive separation from the Divine.

Who the hell are we, as Christians, to tell God that "he messed up" or that parts of His Creation that don't suit our personal sensibilities are evil, sinful, this that or the other? That's human arrogance speaking - placing limitations on which parts of Creation are in Order and which aren't.

Personally, in all the reading and reflection I've done over the course of my lifetime, I can't find any justification behind the condemnation of homosexuals - REGARDLESS of what is written in the Old Testament (which isn't even relevant if we are to take the New Testament into account, for Christ said NOTHING on the issue of homosexuality whatsoever).

Quite honestly, I think the Old Testament disparaging of homosexual behavior was a cautionary addition to dissuade brutish men of the ancient world who would use male rape as a submission tactic from continuing their behavior under the threat of Divine Persecution.

Christ instructed us to love our neighbors as ourselves....and that's pretty straightforward.

But what do I know. I'm just a heathen in the eyes of many anyway.

*two cents*

Very well said. This is the best post of this whole thread.

reply to post by Gryphon66


I get you disagreeing with the ideology, fine.

But it is what it is.

Know Your Greek

And some of these ex-homosexuals are in heaven today with Jesus, why because they changed and stopped.
They never tried to justify to continue to practice. Interestingly some of these former homosexuals who are now in heaven as angels will be judging homosexuals that are resurrected back to this earth during the thousand year reign of Christ in the future. And they will be in the best position to help them recover and stop, having real empathy for their struggles. But make no mistake, in time they will have to stop or be judged by their heavenly peers that did.

schadenfreude

First, i'm not a sister.

I sure hope not; we're New Testament people, right?

1 Timothy 2

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

I'd like to start by saying that I find you taking a more mature approach to the issue than a lot of Christians...

HOWEVER,

The belief that homosexuality is a sin and that it requires reconciliation -- and that we should be inviting people to church because they're gay and need to be cured of the gay -- absolutely disgusts me. This is exactly why gay male youths have the highest suicide rates in developed societies; sad, dying group-think factions like the one you belong to convincing them that they're sick and their natural thoughts are "immoral". There is absolutely f%&king nothing wrong with being gay. If you think it's wrong base on your religion, then it's time to consider changing the religion that you were likely birthed into -- it's all too convenient that you ended up in the right one out of the 2,700 on this planet.

I'm gay, when I have sex with my husband, yes, HUSBAND -- a definition of a binding relationship that existed long before Christianity -- it's sensual, not lustful. I don't obsess over his body, I enthuse over his mind; we share a bond that I share with no other person. We take damned good care our adopted daughter, and we LOVE her just as much as any other parent loves the daughter that they spawned themselves, and even moreso than her birth parents (obviously).

I'm sorry that that's so disgusting and sinful. I'm instrinsically attracted to the same sex and I'm not going to be bullied into selebacy by anyone. Shame is not an option for me anymore and I won't be told to feel any. I have 1.4% of the population as potential mates and I was lucky enough to find my one and only, I'm not passing that up because of a book that I've read 3 times and have determined nonsense based on its consistent fallacies and contradictions alone.

Your mindset that homosexuality is "wrong", "a sin", is abhorrent. It's pathetic. You're an abomination, "no offense". Three gay teens just comitted suicide in the U.S. in the time it took you to read this, and it's precisely because of people with your mindset. I hope you're proud.

Your 2,000 year old book is no excuse for bigotry an it never will be in a society that demands rationality. If you don't like it, good like finding a wagon that will take you back to 1865, because your creed is a dying faction.

People who say homosexuality is wrong make me wish there was a Hell for them to go to.

Sincerely,

An adult who almost died for YOUR sins, but rose up for HIMSELF.

reply to post by Deetermined


The Talmud disagrees with your opinion (Talmud Bavli, Tractate Yevumos, Chapter 8, 79b.) as do virtually all ancient cultures of the Middle East (The Keeper of the Bed: The Story of the Eunuch, Charles Humana, page 21). Then as now some religious authorities believed they could "cure" natural eunuchs. You can't "cure" birth defects.

Perhaps your opinion is merely a matter of faith, in which case, actual facts probably make no difference to you, but I encourage you to do some research on your own or in the links I provided. I think you may be surprised.

reply to post by Gryphon66

Sorry, you fail to understand and twist things to suit your own purposes. Paul also calls this a gift. Paul was "born a eunuch". Are you saying Paul was gay? Did Paul have homosexual relations? Did he say it's ok? Sure doesn't sound it. This will be my last post on the subject.

1Cr 7:1
Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”
Tools specific to 1Cr 7:2
1Cr 7:2
But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.

1Cr 7:7
I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
1Cr 7:8
Now to the unmarriedfn and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.
1Cr 7:9
But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.