Rendlesham Forest…, A Christmas Story from 1980 - Can We ‘Let it Be’?

originally posted by: ctj83
Are you including Dr Green in that attempt to seek compensation for John? Or is his 11 year old UAP treatment group a convenient coincidence for this speculation about compensation seeking and nothing more?

Re-read my post about Kit Greene here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't know if Frascogna will attempt to get testimony from Dr. Green in the lawsuit mentioned below. Let's just say it wouldn't surprise me if that happened, and if it does I would expect Dr. Green to be compensated handsomely for his testimony as an expert witness, which means he could potentially have something to gain. Whether or not he's motivated by that, or something else, or anything at all, I cannot say.

Unless Dr. Green has published something on his UAP treatment group, I find it difficult to evaluate, and once again how does he determine what's a UAP? When he says John Burroughs encountered a UAP how does he know that when even John Burroughs said he's not sure what happened, though Burroughs has given various accounts at various times and perhaps he has given another account to his attorney:

Where is this "anomalous vehicle" phrase from? I've never seen Burroughs use it and it seems that it's misleading to throw it around without a source or context?

Are we reading the same thread? Guest101 drew attention to it a few posts ago with a partial quote from the source mirageman posted. Here is the full quote from his lawyer Patrick Frascogna in the second paragraph:

www.earthfiles.com...

“It's unconscionable that U.S. policy makers would wrap media presentation of their policies in the protection of the American Flag and the duty, honor and sacrifice of the working class U.S. servicemen, then conveniently deny their existence when time comes to provide them with protection and care in return. Their hypocrisy apparently knows no bounds.” said Patrick Frascogna, Esq., who is researching the best angle from which to bring a federal lawsuit on Burrough's behalf in the matter...

In 1979, Burroughs passed the USAF entrance physical and was assigned to RAF Woodbridge, where, in December, 1980 he was exposed to the effects of an anomalous vehicle. From the moment of the event, Burroughs suffered from a variety of symptoms, including those of eye, throat, and gum disease.

It seems the the latest news (via Sacha's facebook page), is that Peter Robbins has openly admitted on radio that "he's been had" with regards to Larry Warren:

Interview "A Controversial Truth Honestly Revealed / UFOs & Witnesses":
inceptionradionetwork.com...

Ronnie Dugdale has also revealed (in comments on Sacha's page) that he has, or has seen, a 1953 RAF aerial photograph of Capel Green and that the circular soil 'anomaly' from which samples were taken and later tested by Peter, is present. That means that the circle of discoloured earth was present 27 years prior to the incident.

The Capel Green incident which Warren painted with such credibility (particularly in that online video at the location where he steps over events), an incident it seemed corroborated by the soil 'physical trace' evidence and his eye medical record, seems to be in absolute tatters.


Sacha's got a blog post ready with likely more details to come:
sacha-christie-infomaniachouse... wife.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/new-peter-robbins-interview-larry.html?m=1

I would still like to know if Peter sticks by his (and Larry's) February 1988 sightings, when they returned to the site.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Are we reading the same thread?

Sorry Arby, guess I missed that, so Burroughs never used the term but his legal team did. Perhaps you are right on the legal angle then.

Let's just say it wouldn't surprise me if that happened, and if it does I would expect Dr. Green to be compensated handsomely for his testimony as an expert witness, which means he could potentially have something to gain. Whether or not he's motivated by that, or something else, or anything at all, I cannot say

I think that speaks for itself.

a reply to: Defragmentor

You mean the encounter in the woods, with the moving orb light phenomena and possible CE3 when Larry and Peter went back to the woods?

That has always bothered me.

a reply to: mirageman

She's been in the background of this case for a long while. Totally missing the first mention of 'binary' back in the 1990s and now very much a phenomenon on a certain KGRA radio show of the same name

Does not quite hang right, does it ?

And then she pushes more recent binary besides Pennistons. Clearly nonsensical .


A women on a mission I would say .

a reply to: ctj83

Let me put it another way, regardless of what happened, if this area of genetics is where interests reside then that may be of importance.

Do continue .....

a reply to: Arbitrageur

I don't know if Frascogna will attempt to get testimony from Dr. Green in the lawsuit mentioned below. Let's just say it wouldn't surprise me if that happened, and if it does I would expect Dr. Green to be compensated handsomely for his testimony as an expert witness, which means he could potentially have something to gain. Whether or not he's motivated by that, or something else, or anything at all, I cannot say....

The pdf from Frascogna was released on Nov 18th 2013. This was BEFORE the VA had made any settlement with Burroughs.

Kit Green made his statement on ATS about the case on March 14th 2015. This was after the case had been won. The press release regarding that being made February 22nd 2015.

So what did Kit Green have to gain by appearing on ATS after the case was won when he said?

....his records...about a thousand pages, and to this day, still many hundreds, were in fact legally classified. In my 46 year career as a Medical Officer and physician with CIA [including as Staff Officer, Chief of Medical Intelligence/ Life Sciences Division, and Assistant National Intelligence Officer for Science and Technology]...I had, until a year of so ago...only seen a handful of truly 'classified' medical records: those of Adolph Hitler, John Kennedy's Autopsy, and recently...John Burroughs. ....

Yes, his records were classified. Some remain classified. The reasons are not entirely ethical. Thank god that a couple of Senators had the guts to push, and push to 'Disentangle' that which was legitimately classified from those records that were needed to make the right decision about injury sustained while on Active Duty. Period. It is/was true. It is sensible. It is not entirely the stuff to make us physicians very proud.

Source

And why would Frascogna's state:

In August [2013]Burroughs received a letter from the VA in which he was informed that his request for benefits was denied due to the fact that “there are no medical records for the period 1979 to 1983 and no form DD214 showing service in that time period......

By mid-September, after five weeks of effort,[Senator] McCain was able to get the DD214 returned to truthful status, showing that Burroughs was indeed on active duty in the US Air Force from 1979 to 1988.

Arby/CTJ. I am interested in your thoughts on these statements. If further evidence becomes available then it may make things clearer. But this is all we have to go on at the moment.

Do you not find any of this disturbing, irrespective of whether the damage occurred at Xmas 1980 in Rendlesham Forest?

If Burroughs medical records have been classified, AND his DD214 seemingly altered to show he was not in the USAF until 1983, do you not think that points to more than just clerical errors by the VA and some deep attempt to cover 'something' up?

Surely Burroughs, Frascogna and Green are all careful enough to have made sure that whatever they say about this case publicly cannot be contested by the VA? Otherwise the VA might take their own legal action to withdraw the original award to Burroughs based on untruthful statements made?

originally posted by: mirageman
So what did Kit Green have to gain by appearing on ATS after the case was won when he said?

Sounds like he was trying to embarrass whoever is classifying the medical records.

And why would Frascogna's state:

Burroughs was getting the run-around. I get it about half the time I deal with government agencies but usually not quite that badly, his case is pretty extreme.

Arby/CTJ. I am interested in your thoughts on these statements. If further evidence becomes available then it may make things clearer. But this is all we have to go on at the moment.

Do you not find any of this disturbing, irrespective of whether the damage occurred at Xmas 1980 in Rendlesham Forest?

Yes I find it disturbing, but I don't find it necessarily relevant to Xmas 1980 in Rendlesham Forest. Maybe, maybe not.

If Burroughs medical records have been classified, AND his DD214 seemingly altered to show he was not in the USAF until 1983, do you not think that points to more than just clerical errors by the VA and some deep attempt to cover 'something' up?

Yes there's a story there. Not necessarily the Rendlesham Forest incident story, but a story.

Surely Burroughs, Frascogna and Green are all careful enough to have made sure that whatever they say about this case publicly cannot be contested by the VA? Otherwise the VA might take their own legal action to withdraw the original award to Burroughs based on untruthful statements made?

I see no reason to assume that and either Burroughs or his lawyer made up the "anomalous vehicle" statement which isn't consistent with what Burroughs has said on other occasions. As I said earlier of you prefer to refer to it as "exaggerating" instead of "lying" you can call it that, but it's just a euphemism. Burroughs didn't mention any anomalous vehicle in his witness statement and in a recent interview he still didn't mention one. I also think Burroughs is "exaggerating" that the VA has confirmed anything about his encounter in Rendlesham forest, he is reading in things that aren't there and while you seem to think the VA cares, I don't think the VA cares at all what Burroughs says about that, and I don't think they care if his lawyer lied about "anomalous vehicle" because at this point I have yet to see anything solid that was a factor in the VA's settlement.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

You're suggesting:

- The VA settled to make life easy or to hide something else?
- They haven't taken the opportunity to counter sue based on Burroughs statements?
- That the DD214 went missing because of "bureaucratic incompetence"?
- That his military service records for those years disappeared due to "bureaucratic incompetence"?
- That John wasn't injured by non-ionising radiation?
- That Dr Green posted that on ATS maybe to embarrass those who classified it but was incorrect in what he stated?
- That Dr Green may have given such testimony to be an expert witness and was willing to mislead (remember he has already publicly posted here so that would be used against him if his testimony differed)?
- That Fraconga et al are looking for compensation and as such are suspect?

If so, why did the VA settle at all?

If I assume even a portion of the above list is correct it leaves an interesting problem:

John Burroughs was dying of heart failure and his then current care pathway was not working. Dr Green then got access to his classified medical records and based on what he found advised a treatment based on a specific type of non ionising radiation injury.

How then did John Burroughs recover and survive to this day? Are you saying he survived based on the incorrect treatment advised by a medical expert based on an incorrect understanding?

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Arbitrageur

I don't know if Frascogna will attempt to get testimony from Dr. Green in the lawsuit mentioned below. Let's just say it wouldn't surprise me if that happened, and if it does I would expect Dr. Green to be compensated handsomely for his testimony as an expert witness, which means he could potentially have something to gain. Whether or not he's motivated by that, or something else, or anything at all, I cannot say....

The pdf from Frascogna was released on Nov 18th 2013. This was BEFORE the VA had made any settlement with Burroughs.

Kit Green made his statement on ATS about the case on March 14th 2015. This was after the case had been won. The press release regarding that being made February 22nd 2015.

So what did Kit Green have to gain by appearing on ATS after the case was won when he said?

....his records...about a thousand pages, and to this day, still many hundreds, were in fact legally classified. In my 46 year career as a Medical Officer and physician with CIA [including as Staff Officer, Chief of Medical Intelligence/ Life Sciences Division, and Assistant National Intelligence Officer for Science and Technology]...I had, until a year of so ago...only seen a handful of truly 'classified' medical records: those of Adolph Hitler, John Kennedy's Autopsy, and recently...John Burroughs. ....

Yes, his records were classified. Some remain classified. The reasons are not entirely ethical. Thank god that a couple of Senators had the guts to push, and push to 'Disentangle' that which was legitimately classified from those records that were needed to make the right decision about injury sustained while on Active Duty. Period. It is/was true. It is sensible. It is not entirely the stuff to make us physicians very proud.

Source

And why would Frascogna's state:

In August [2013]Burroughs received a letter from the VA in which he was informed that his request for benefits was denied due to the fact that “there are no medical records for the period 1979 to 1983 and no form DD214 showing service in that time period......

By mid-September, after five weeks of effort,[Senator] McCain was able to get the DD214 returned to truthful status, showing that Burroughs was indeed on active duty in the US Air Force from 1979 to 1988.

Arby/CTJ. I am interested in your thoughts on these statements. If further evidence becomes available then it may make things clearer. But this is all we have to go on at the moment.

Do you not find any of this disturbing, irrespective of whether the damage occurred at Xmas 1980 in Rendlesham Forest?

If Burroughs medical records have been classified, AND his DD214 seemingly altered to show he was not in the USAF until 1983, do you not think that points to more than just clerical errors by the VA and some deep attempt to cover 'something' up?

Surely Burroughs, Frascogna and Green are all careful enough to have made sure that whatever they say about this case publicly cannot be contested by the VA? Otherwise the VA might take their own legal action to withdraw the original award to Burroughs based on untruthful statements made?

I'll make this short by just focussing on the part I've emboldened.

Dr Green and Burroughs could have the statements they have made publicly used against them. Dr Green is a qualified medical expert and has made numerous statements that John was injured by a non-ionised radiation injury of a specific type. I'll choose to believe he is being honest over a non expert commentator such as Dr Clarke until I see proof otherwise.

To be fair to the excellent Dr Clarke, his assessment seemed far more likely until the book Phenomenon came out. Any 'wiggle room' is now gone. This doesn't tell us what injured Burroughs or when. Dr Clarke's assessment is out of date, but he might be busy with National Archives stuff, unless he did actually leave the post as stated on the final release.

There are really only two major questions to answer.

Question 1: What type of radiation injured John?

If there is nothing to anything Dr Green has posted here or in Phenomenon then you have to believe:
- Dr Green and Burroughs have potentially perjured themselves to win the case. They can easily be beaten in any court of law due to the statements they have publicly made.
- The VA settled for no good reason
- That John is alive due to incorrect treatment that somehow worked, when existing treatments had failed

Question 2: Where was John injured?"

Was he injured at the RFI? Arby has a good point here. We don't know.

The best I can say is that I have to give some weight to the fact Burroughs DD214 went missing, his medical records were classified. His tour of duty in the UK supposedly never happened.

Which leaves us with the following quandary:

Is Arbitrageur correct? Could it all be an attempt to embarrass those who classified the records? An attempt to gain compensation and perhaps be paid to be an expert witness? Could it be that a care pathway was advised which saved Johns' life but is still totally incorrect?

If Arby is correct on the above then perhaps none of this is part of the RFI story.

Personally I believe Dr Green gave the correct assessment of the type of injury and that John Burroughs survived because of that correct treatment. As such, unlike Arby, I think this topic is part of the RFI and should be part of this thread.

originally posted by: ctj83
If so, why did the VA settle at all?

I don't know the exact reasons involved in their settlement, but I can tell you this, the credibility of the reasons for the settlement I've been given from sources other than the VA is low for me. Only the VA can say why they settled and because it's a private medical matter they can't say publicly but according to Burroughs they have given him some documentation which he hasn't released yet. I can't evaluate that until it's released.

Pat Frascogna's press release titled “U.S. Government’s De Facto Acknowledgement of the Existence of UFOs.” has low credibility, not because I think the government doubts the existence of UFOs, but because I've seen no documents yet which have verified what has been claimed about an "anomalous vehicle" in Rendlesham forest contributing to Burrough's condition. As I already said that may be possible but I think people who accept these dubious claims at face value are overly credulous especially given the overwhelming abundance of inaccurate information already disseminated about this case, and it will take something more convincing to sell me on these claims, like maybe the documents Burroughs said he may release some time in the future but hasn't released yet, though I'm not holding my breath that will be convincing either.

How then did John Burroughs recover and survive to this day? Are you saying he survived based on the incorrect treatment advised by a medical expert based on an incorrect understanding?

I believe that it's a fallacy to say that the source of the heart problem must be fully understood in order to treat it. It may indeed help, but it's inaccurate to suggest treatment isn't possible without knowing it. I might be able to say more if we had more details but we lack those.

I can give you an example however involving electromagnetic radiation. Radar technicians in the past who were exposed to high levels of microwave radiation developed cataracts at a rate far above average. However as far as I know, standard cataract surgery is an effective treatment for cataracts whether the cause of the cataracts is from exposure to microwave radiation or from some other cause.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

]I believe that it's a fallacy to say that the source of the heart problem must be fully understood in order to treat it. It may indeed help, but it's inaccurate to suggest treatment isn't possible without knowing it. I might be able to say more if we had more details but we lack those.

Yeah - I agree it would be a fallacy to say the source must be fully understood to treat it. Quite clearly no aspect of it is clearly understood. Unless of course the injury was sustained by something that is known and understood outside of the RFI? I just believe that Dr Green has at least some level of competence and understanding of the emission (not the emitter).

Until there is more information, there probably isn't much more you can add, as you suggest.

Without more data, that is just a personal guess, and as you suggest I might be being overly credulous in seeing level understanding in Dr Greens interview with Annie Jacobson and posts here.

a reply to: Arbitrageur


Your post addition re cataracts is very interesting. I'm afraid I don't know if the treatment for shredded inner leaf in the mitral valve would differ based on the source. What we can say is that John had said his standard treatments were not working until Dr Green got access to his records and advised a different range of treatments based on his understanding of what John had been exposed to.

So there seems a possible way to move this on? Are there any references in medical literature to differences in injuries caused by ionising or non-ionising radiation?

I've been told that there are but never seen any proof...

a reply to: Arbitrageur

a reply to: ctj83

Guys thank you for your assessments. As we all agree more evidence is required to make an accurate assessment. But that may well be forthcoming before the leaves start to fall of the trees again this year.

My own angle on this was that even if we ignore the RFI incident 'something' was being covered up. Or at least someone appeared to be attempting to cover something up. Otherwise why would medical records be highly classified? Why does it appear John's service record was tampered with removing his tour of duty in England from the record? Of course then you have to ask why does this apply to the only witness present on two nights of the RFI? Is all of that just coincidence?

Personally I don't think this was an alien spacecraft or time travellers. I do think this had something to do with the military and the Cold War.

I suppose the one thing that is more important than anything else here is that we are discussing a human being and thankfully John managed to get the treatment he required.

originally posted by: mirageman
Otherwise why would medical records be highly classified?

Apologies if its already been posted but aside from Kit Greens allusion to the above- has anyone seen any actual evidence of "highly classified medical records".

"Private and confidential" (AKA all medical records) might look very much like "Highly Classified" from the outside unless you are the patient, the patients doctor/legal rep or work at the VA records dept.

originally posted by: mirageman
Of course then you have to ask why does this apply to the only witness present on two nights of the RFI? Is all of that just coincidence?

It may not be. John allegedly stood underneath the ‘odd Air Form’ for some time:

“We were walking. And at one point that's when John got in front of me, and he was like in between some trees.
There was a little clearing in between some trees and a light from above just shined on John. It was just like somebody turned a switch on. And I remember I looked at him and said something. And then I felt like I got pushed down. Like I got pushed from behind.
And that's when I tried to break my fall and my left hand went into the lighted area and it startled me. And at the same time, I felt like I was being pulled back up by my pack. I looked at John and John was trying to look up at the light. And I remember John looking at his arms and his hands. And the light was like fuzzy, when you get a snowy TV, but it was like particles. It looked like particles in the light like when you get onto a dusty road and you see particles in the light. And I couldn't tell you exactly how long. Maybe five, ten minutes. Maybe longer, I don't know.
I was more startled than anything else, and I'm sure John was, too, at the point. My reaction was to call out to him, and it crossed my mind to run. But, you know, where do you run? I didn't know what I was running from. And then the light went out. I remember the light being very bright. I even felt it kind of warmish, kind of like a spotlight.”

Bustinza, Phenomenon Radio interview, 2015

”Bustinza and I were running together and he fell down and I kept running. As I was getting close to it all of a sudden it was gone and I was just standing in the field. I don’t know what happened.
There was some missing time. I.e. I got very close to something and then it was gone and I have no idea what happened in between”

Burroughs, old Rendlesham Incident forum, around 2010

a reply to: Jukiodone

It depends what you consider would be evidence of highly classified medical records?

There is Burroughs' own testimony, his lawyers statement already highlighted on this page : link claiming Senator Kyle and Senator McCain have been refused access to John's medical records?

Or a letter which four former senators eventually wrote and highlighted the problem accessing these medical records to President Obama?

See : files.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Jukiodone

It depends what you consider would be evidence of highly classified medical records?

There is Burroughs' own testimony, his lawyers statement already highlighted on this page : link claiming Senator Kyle and Senator McCain have been refused access to John's medical records?

Or a letter which four former senators eventually wrote and highlighted the problem accessing these medical records to President Obama?

See : files.abovetopsecret.com...

Just to cover all bases, has it been verified that withholding of a USAF Serviceman's medical records, post discharge, is not the norm?

a reply to: Guest101

I don’t know what happened. There was some missing time. I.e. I got very close to something and then it was gone and I have no idea what happened in between

How do we perceive missing time? In fact how does a human being perceive time? Can time actually go missing?
Time is, in simple terms, the measurement between one event and another by the observer(s).

When someone claims missing time they are actually implying a loss of memory or consciousness between two or more events they have experienced.

So what exactly was this odd 'Air Form'/phenomenon'? What interfered with John's mental processes so his brain was incapable of processing what was happening around him? Is uncovering what this 'Air Form' is/was the key to finding what happened at Rendlesham?

Or is it another small scarlet fish swimming around in the pond of dirty water this case has become?

originally posted by: Shaqmeister

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Jukiodone

It depends what you consider would be evidence of highly classified medical records?

There is Burroughs' own testimony, his lawyers statement already highlighted on this page : link claiming Senator Kyle and Senator McCain have been refused access to John's medical records?

Or a letter which four former senators eventually wrote and highlighted the problem accessing these medical records to President Obama?

See : files.abovetopsecret.com...

Just to cover all bases, has it been verified that withholding of a USAF Serviceman's medical records, post discharge, is not the norm?

There is a legally acknowledged process : www.va.gov...
There is also evidence that routine bureaucratic incompetence exists when a vet tries to obtain their records: www.govexec.com...

Assuming this is indicative of the scenario faced by other vets, we are left with hearsay that the records were classified (no evidence) and that the records had the same level of classification as Hitlers (again no evidence).

You might argue that ALL medical records have the same level of classification as Hitlers- if you are not Hitler or Hitlers' Dr/Legally recognised representative as to a third party, medical records are for all intents and purpose "secret" anyway.

Classic unverifiable claim cranked up with some Hitler sauce - that'll keep em busy.