I don't think it's just an American ignorance though. There is often an economic argument provided for why more is not done to protect the environment. Whether people agree or not, it would increase the cost of most products and services if we safeguarded the environment more during their production. Now, of course, if the ultimate price is the demise of the human race than we could say that no price is too high; but here is where human (and particularly American) greed comes into play. We simply don't want to pay more for products and services. But, naturally most of us want to save the environment.

We can't have our cake and eat it too.

while i don't doubt that global warming is currently in full swing, i do believe this man is greatly exaggerating the threat we face. extinction of the human race is far from occurrence. the way of life we have all come to expect may be in danger ( i.e. civilization and this technological age), but our physical existence is not. the human species will continue to live.

Originally posted by astroblade
i do believe this man is greatly exaggerating the threat we face.

...We've got a planet full of microbes that are interracting with chemical contamination, radiation and shifting temperatures. They're mutating fast, some inside of 9 minutes, and now they're breeding across species AND kingdom lines!

...they're changing the bio-chemical foundations of our world. ...Not to mention creating some seriously virulent and deadly little beggars. We've got e. coli that used to just be spread in 'bad' food to cause tummy aches - now transmitted by air and deadly - blood diseases, flesh-eating diseases. Yech. The list is long.

But the point is - we don't have immunity to any of this stuff. Personally, I think he may be greatly overestimating the time we have left - given that no one wants to admit the problems are real.

The coming flu epidemic is just the tip of the iceberg.



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Originally posted by soficrow...We've got a planet full of microbes that are interracting with chemical contamination, radiation and shifting temperatures. They're mutating fast, some inside of 9 minutes, and now they're breeding across species AND kingdom lines!

Can you give us an example of a cross Kingdom jump? I know of cross species jumps, but have never heard of a virus jumping phyla or even class, let alone kingdoms.

edit to add: Okay, I've thought of a class jump, avian (bird) flu. But I can think of no phyla or kingdom jumps.

[edit on 18-11-2004 by engineer]

Originally posted by engineer
Can you give us an example of a cross Kingdom jump? I know of cross species jumps, but have never heard of a virus jumping phyla or even class, let alone kingdoms.

edit to add: Okay, I've thought of a class jump, avian (bird) flu. But I can think of no phyla or kingdom jumps.

...PRIONS - infectious proteins. Found in human cells, yeast (as of 1993 or '96 I think), etc etc

...Look to the "actin" protein. An early article is "Actin' Like Actin." It's a hot research topic, especially the part about how it affects DNA and interferes with RNA and gene expression.

...actin is present in virtually every cell and every living thing on our planet. ...The point of entry for an "actin-related" protein is the cytoskeleton or cell membrane. ...It works on the lock and key mechanism - so any 'similar' structure gets in.

FYI - I tracked the evolution of avian flu from a human disease called fibromuscular dysplasia (FMD). FMD usually is diagnosed by its pathology - deposits of 'smooth muscle actin' that accumulate to create fibrosis.

FMD first was acknowledged officially in the USA in 1938 when it was found to be transmitted congenitally. ...It first was discovered in domestic turkeys in the USA in 1980 (Julian). ...By 1996, it had jumped to quail in Japan. (Researchers in Brazil documented it in 'benign' avian reovirus - suggesting the pathway.) ...and by 1997, the first case of human H5N1 avian flu was reported from Hong Kong.

...So yeah, that actin protein opens a lot of doors and really gets around.

If you really are interested, I can pull some references for you.



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Originally posted by St Udio

Originally posted by soficrow
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""We are in the midst of the sixth great extinction wave on the planet Earth, caused by the intervention of humans," David Brackett,

This sounds like he's saying that 5 other mass extinctions were man caused...which sounds kinda silly, to me.

I think what he's saying is that the human race is in danger of bringing about its own extinction, not that it caused the previous five. I am by no means a scholar of this, but it seems to make sense. Massive overpopulation has caused humans to move into formerly "virgin" areas, bringing us into contact with previously unknown microorganisms such as the HIV virus and providing hospitable conditions for known organisms to mutate and infect us (avian bird flu, to use the earlier example). Our lifestyles are changing the environment around us, and not in a good way. So yeah, I think the argument could be made that we are bringing about our own end.

to think that we have evolved 7 millions years or so to be so quickly removed.the planet is in a time of change.when our polar ice caps go we see the real dangers.more sick people on the planet.starving will be the number one death followed by viruses. we dont have the immune systems to take on mother nature when she is mad.i hope nasa will find a way to coexsit somewhere else.

i have read tons of crap on the environment because i am an off-road enthusiast and occasionally require ammo to argue with the environmental fanatic crowd, and i have not seen one shred of good evidence other than opinions on what, if anything, is happening to the earth. there is evidence of a .5 degree farenheit temperature rise, but there is also evidence that that is just a regained .5 degrees from the turn of the last century in the late 1800's or early 1900's. i have seen evidence that the most significant changes in temperature have taken place in or before the 1930's and were due to carbon dioxide from human activity, but there has been multiple times over, the amount of carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere from human activity since then and very little change to temperature or anything else for that matter. i agree that the earth is changing, but i don't agree that it is caused by carbon dioxide or human activity. i believe it is just a natural shift in the climate of the planet, just like the last - however many - ice ages and whatnot. now, stop trying to scare people and go find some good hard evididence for this, because even reading the interview here on this forum with that environmental fanatic woman at the top of the page last month, all i can find are a few facts and a ton of opinions regarding those facts and regarding simple opinions of those making the statements, sometimes without any regard for the facts.

a depopulation program? are you serious?

as it is, the ever-growing population problem has already started to slow and the originally projected 20 billion critical mass has come down a few times to settle around 11 billion and is porojected, still, to come down another 2 billion to 9 billion- the total number of people on the planet at the point in which we are supposed to be at the peak of our inhabitance of this planet. this is beyond any sort of reduction any sort of "powers that be" could possibly have created or carried on without massive and timely consequences.

the items in that thread do not seem to be factual in basis, either. i followed a few of the links and was led around a bit. the article on blood pressure rising is misleading. i have had blood pressure of 120 over 70 for as long as i can remember and i have never had trouble with cognitive skills. the article on voting rights is simply conjecture. a competency test has been suggested for the elderly for everything from vehicle driver licences to voting, now, and still, the only tests they will ever get are physical tests, as in, can they operate this or that?, can they see?, etc. this is again, more scare, no facts. same with the linuxmednews. and the uh, ats articles are a bit suspect. 100 million chronicly debilitated? i doubt that, maybe 88 million have filed for some sort of disability, but to be honest, i a city full of lazy people and scam artists, i've seen some of these "disabled" people and i can tell you, the numbers are wrong, but, again, what's that got to do with global warming? it is no news that there are parasites in our food and in our water. they are everywhere and we are supposed to live an almost symbiotic relationship with them. fecal coloform bacteria is naturally found in soil, on grass, in water and people freak out when they hear about it being in a pool or tap water or at a restaurant. these are natural creatures living amongst us, we've done it for this long, why should they be such a threat now? and the article from unknown country- the insects ability to breed bacterias previously unseen in humans is due to global warming? not likely.

i can see, for the first time in 20 years, a future that is not bleak. prove to me it will be bleak.

Its very difficult if not impossible at this point to determine if humans effect on the supportive life infrastructure on this Earth has been damaged or altered to the point of extinction.............

There is compelling evidence for each side of the arguement depending on your position............

The real problem is that if there is a threashold where we hit a no return ablity to reverse any environment or ecological problem.........we don't really know when we have reached it..................and once we do it might be too late to reverse the trend..................

That to me is where the problem is...............

However, I do see the majority of people I know in the US too busy with their own day to day issues and families to bother even thinking about this............that is not wise................it is after all their children who will inherit the responsiblities of utilizing the Earth's supportive system in a diligent fashion..............but the less resources we have, the more as a species we are willing to risk in order to maintain a majority of it.............................I sure hope I'm wrong but everytime I go up in a light craft plane at about 3 to 10,000ft I can see the effects of that dark reddish brown pollution in our atmosphere...........and it hangs around everywhere...........even in the remote regions of the US.......

Originally posted by fledgling666


the items in that thread do not seem to be factual in basis,

fledgling - ALL of the medical references posted in that thread are listed by PubMed, which is the database for the US National Institutes of Health. Every one of them is published in a peer reviewed scientific journal BEFORE it is considered for inclusion in PubMed, and then again for PubMed approval. If you are questioning PubMed's legitimacy you are only proving your own ignorance.

...I included direct links to a few simple and and easy to read 'science for dummies' articles, written for medical students and the public. ...If you find these articles too simplified to be accurate - I suggest you go straight to the scientific sources. The PubMed ID numbers are provided.

BTW - Problems can be fixed - but only after they are acknowledged. ...The solutions to microbial contamination include nanofilters of wastewater AND fresh water, new sterilization and decontamination techniques, and etc.

...The whole process is being held up NOT because it's unnecessary, but because our exalted leaders are sweating about liability.



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One thing that I can definatley say is that we humans are slowing poisoning ourselves and our environment. Here is an example of fish farming brought about by the depletion of fish in the ocean. "In January 2004, the Journal Science warned that farmed salmon should be eaten only infrequently – once every month or two – due to the risk of cancer due to the food fed to the salmon, which is said to contain 10 times the contaminants, including pesticides and PCB's, found in the diet of wild salmon." # Salmon are carnivorous, and are fed fishmeal that is made from other fish such as anchovies, herring, mackerel and sardines. Salmon production requires anywhere from 2 to 5 tonnes of these feeder fish for each tonne of salmon produced, so by farming salmon we are actually depleting these species.
# Fish waste, excess fish food, and chemicals added to the food, including antibiotics and pesticides, are polluting the surrounding oceans, since the salmon are kept in open netting or cages. (The waste produced by farmed salmon in Norway is roughly equal to the sewage produced by Norway's 4 million people). Wild Salmon in pristine alaska have been found to have pcb's in them. Salmon are close to the top of the food chain in the ocean for that area and even wild alaska salmon are poisoned.

Now I live in Ohio and I like to fish. I go to the Ohio river and fish for catfish. I have yet to see a catfish over the size of about 8 inches that does not have cancerous growths that are visible on the oustide of their bodies. People in cincinati and other cities along the river use this as their drinking water.

My mother and her sister are in their 70's and they both have had cancer. %90 of their peers of roughly the same age have had cancer. At some point the amount of poisons injested into humans is going to weaken our immune systems and their will be some sort of mass population die off. At that point the earth will have a chance to recover from overpopulation and hopefully mankind will then use the earths resources more wisely.

One last bit about overpopulation. Teddy Roosevelt liked to hunt. He liked this area in the southwest and a particular type of deer that i cannot remember the name of. The deers population were controlled by wolves. Teddy thought hey if we eliminate the wolves the deer population will grow. So the wolves were killed ant the deer population began to grow. The deer started to outstrip their food resources and disease set it along with starvation killing almost %90 of the deer population.

Just how many people can this planet support untill the same happens to us?

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by engineer
Can you give us an example of a cross Kingdom jump? I know of cross species jumps, but have never heard of a virus jumping phyla or even class, let alone kingdoms.

edit to add: Okay, I've thought of a class jump, avian (bird) flu. But I can think of no phyla or kingdom jumps.

...PRIONS - infectious proteins. Found in human cells, yeast (as of 1993 or '96 I think), etc etc

But a protein is not an organism. It has no genes. Genes code for proteins, not the other way around.

Of course there are toxins in nature, PSP from red tide, etc. But I'm looking for an organism that has jumped from one phyla to another. Let's take mad cow disease for example. Possibly prions are involved here, possibly not. BSE or nvCJD transmission is still not understood, i.e., the virus or bacterium responsible has not been identified. Even so, cows and humans are both chordartes, so no cross phylum jump there.

Even avian influenza is a close call. Humans can be infected by eating a "bad bird", but there are no known cases of sustained transmission among humans.

Maybe I'm picking nits here, but a cross phylum or cross kingdom jump of a pathogen has never been identified to my knowledge.

Originally posted by engineer

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by engineer
Can you give us an example of a cross Kingdom jump? I know of cross species jumps, but have never heard of a virus jumping phyla or even class, let alone kingdoms.

edit to add: Okay, I've thought of a class jump, avian (bird) flu. But I can think of no phyla or kingdom jumps.

...PRIONS - infectious proteins. Found in human cells, yeast (as of 1993 or '96 I think), etc etc

But a protein is not an organism. It has no genes. Genes code for proteins, not the other way around.

Let's take mad cow disease for example. Possibly prions are involved here, possibly not. BSE or nvCJD transmission is still not understood, i.e., the virus or bacterium responsible has not been identified.

Maybe I'm picking nits here, but a cross phylum or cross kingdom jump of a pathogen has never been identified to my knowledge.

You are nitpicking - and conveniently ignoring the fact that Prusiner received a Nobel Prize - and world recognition - for identifying infectious prions as a pathogen, and investigating their role in modern disease.

...The only faction that questions the scientific legitimacy of prions is dedicated to protecting government and industry from liability. Unfortunately, the legal considerations are sabotaging the forward movement of medical science.

...My statement referred to "microbes" crossing previously uncrossable barriers, not "organisms." You are right, infectious prions are proteins and do not have genetic material - this is what enables them to cross kingdom barriers.

...While genes code for proteins, proteins have the ability to interfere with gene expression, and modify genetic structures (Ie., cause mutations). Search RNA interference and follow up on the links and leads I gave you earlier.

...Infectious prions use viruses and other organisms like bacteria, mycoplasma, spirochetes and more as "vehicles of transmission," which helps explain current trends in microbial mutations and recombinations.

...The truth IS out there - and much of it's available through the US National Institute of Health PubMed database. The links and leads I already gave you will get you started.



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...My statement referred to "microbes" crossing previously uncrossable barriers, not "organisms." You are right, infectious prions are proteins and do not have genetic material - this is what enables them to cross kingdom barriers.

Well, you still haven't given us an example of a microbe making a cross kingdom jump. And microbes are organisms. i.e. bacteria, protozoans, algae, fungi, etc. There is some debate over whether viruses can be considered living creatures or not, but I don't think anyone would call a protien a living creature.

As I stated previously, I do not even know of cross phylum jumping. A virus that infects a mollusk, for example will not invect a chordate. Think about cross kingdom transmission. Something that infects a tree, like Dutch Elm for an example, infecting an animal??? I've never heard of such a thing before.

Originally posted by soficrow

"Humans face extinction by the end of this century," warns Peter Barrett, Director of Victoria University's Antarctic Research Centre, top climate researcher and winner of the Marsden Medal. In related news, the International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (IUCN) reports today that 15,589 species now are threatened with extinction. David Brackett, Species Survival Commission Chair, says, "We are in the midst of the sixth great extinction wave on the planet Earth, caused by the intervention of humans.

Comment: Extinction means "all," in other words "all humans," in his context. It is therefore if valid only for the earth, when sufficient life support systems for space exploration allow transport away from the "extinction event."

Apparently the current powers do not care enough to save the planet, and otherwise want to line fewer pockets with more and more power and resources. It is a matter of a topheavy pyramid structure that denies humanity from repairing its civillization towards universal prosperity and sound ecology both of mind and substance. Extinction is the product of a defective civilization, not "overpopulation," and other things. The problem is simply a "vested interest syndrome," not one of what is doable by the power of mind and good work. In government terms, it is entirely a matter of logistics.

[edit on 20-11-2004 by SkipShipman]

Often we hear the explanation that environmental destruction is a result of economic activities not considering externalities.

So we would suppose that once the bad consequences are taken into account, a counteracting incentive would be set up.

An example of this is the taxes for carbon emissions of the Kyoto protocol.

But the present situation is this:

The diverse ecosystems were produced over millions of years by natural processes.
The human species up to the present has not created a single ecosystem.

If all the benefits provided by the environment are absorbed into the economy, the final result will be a fragmented world where every benefit is measured and metered, not a world of ecosystems.

Economic reasoning won't save us, because it is not the right paradigm at all.