I really tried to let this one slide - but I can't. We did show up and ruin a good thing. We chose to see ourselves as above nature, not part of it. ...We mucked with balances we don't understand and turned the garden into a desert...



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What I'm saying is we can't mess with the balance, we are part of the balance. I'm not saying we haven't screwed a lot of things up, I'm saying that when you are a part of the system anything you do is a function of the system.

...I got that and from a certain philosophical perspective, I agree. At the same time, I think there's a case to be made that consciousness confers the ability to step outside the system and disengage, therefor (and also by definition) to not be part of the system...

So I think we're both right, but am not sure if this is an important point or intellectual masturbation. ...If you think it's worthwhile to investigate further, let me know, and I'll consider it further too.


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Is gene modification part of nature, or is it a way to impose your will upon nature and evolution? I guess the answer to this question is very much according to point of view, but I think it's an important one all the same.


EDIT for spelling.

[edit on 2-12-2004 by Szticks]

Szticks - The diseases and pollution created by man have resulted in 'natural' cell and genetic mutations. ...Much of what's going on with gene and stem cell therapies are designed to fight back against those effects. The fact that these therapies are available only to the very rich means that an elite is 'chosen' for survival.

...Does this information affect how you think about this issue?



?

Well, I suppose it does.

Research that is conducted in order to right the wrongs we hav caused is good. Nature worked fine before us, and in our arrogance we have tried to improve something that nature has already perfected, causing unknown damage. For instance modifying the wheat DNA to make it sturdier is a good cause, but we have no way of foreseeing what it will cause in the long run. And had greed not been such a big factor in the world there would have been enough for everyone anyway.

I'm an idealist I know. I'll stop here so I wont ramble too much.

...agreed.

And there still could be if we got a grip...


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Here's a list of some important background references I posted on another thread...

Leadbetter WF: Hypertension in unilateral renal disease. J Urol 1938, 39:611-626. (Sorry, no link - but is record of confirming congenital transmission of FMD, first official acknowledgment that the disease exists)

Julian LM. The occurrence of fibromuscular dysplasia in the arteries of domestic turkeys. Am J Pathol. 1980 Nov;101(2):415-24. PMID: 7435545
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Braga IS 3rd, Tanaka S, Itakura C, Mizutani M. Fibromuscular dysplasia in intramuscular arteries of Japanese quail (Coturnix coturnix japonica). J Comp Pathol. 1996 Feb;114(2):123-30. PMID: 8920213
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

From the Brazilian Journal of Veterinary Research and Animal Science ... (RE: FMD pathology in avian reovirus)
www.scielo.br...

"The Next Influenza Pandemic: Lessons from Hong Kong, 1997"
www.cdc.gov...

more...

"WHO refutes claims that bird flu virus originated from China"
www.chinaview.cn 2004-01-31 13:24:00

"H5N1 has laid waste to poultry stocks across wide swathes of Asia but it doesn't restrict itself to chickens. People, pigs, dogs, domestic cats, tigers and leopards -- the virus has surprised experts by showing it can infect far afield without acquiring the non-avian genetic material once thought to be necessary for it to jump species."
www.canada.com...


FYI - One of the better articles on FMD I've found. It bows to corporate and political pressure like they all do, but it's less flawed and more complete than others. ..."Fibromuscular dysplasia: When is intervention warranted?" 1 Thomas K. Currya, Louis M. Messina* Seminars in Vascular Surgery. September 2003 • Volume 16 • Number 3
www2.us.elsevierhealth.com...
action=searchDB&searchDBfor=art&artType=full&id=as0895796703000243

Of further interest: "Weird Life: Viruses and Prions"
www.biology.iupui.edu...

"Playing chicken with public health"
www.bangkokpost.com...


July, 2004.
"US scientists need better ways to fight the influence of industry and politics on scientific inquiry,... Whether they are studying global warming, environmental toxins, or workplace safety, scientists who find their research unjustifiably shunned or suppressed face similar challenges from corporate and special interests...
...Baird also took the scientific community to task for failing to respond to the suppression of science (and contended that) scientists ... must "stand up for the democratic process itself."
...An April 2004 General Accounting Office report ...said some departments have appointed members of industry and stakeholder groups, persons who are exempt from conflict-of-interest rules. Industry leaders may therefore theoretically be profiting from their own advice."
Fighting for integrity. Delegates at a CSPI meeting dismayed at corporate influence, politicization of science.
www.biomedcentral.com...

I found this to be a good thread to revisit - especially considering the coming bird flu epidemic.

Also see: 6th Extinction?

soficrow, can you give an example of cross kingdom breeding? The one you gave about prions and actin protein have nothing to do with cross breeding of kingdoms.

That would be like me hookin' up with some tree moss........

Later
Sporty


[edit on 25/3/2006 by SportyMB]

What's to get worked up over? So, when the sixth mass extinction is over, the planet will begin afresh without the most polluting of species. I would think that most environmentalists would see this as a victory for Mother Earth.

A sobering heads-up:


Bird flu threatening wide range of animals



Also see:
Analysis: Bird flu may threaten animals

In many ways, it is a "threat of our own making," said CBD Executive Secretary Ahmed Djoghlaf.

Bird flu may prove big threat to biological diversity


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A quick add:

I would like to offer two points.

First, in Indonesia, chickens are like cows in New Delhi, or pigeons in New York, on every street in the city, and nobody owns them. Bird flu is spreading there because it's inevitable. It is however, not at all unusual. What is unusual is that there hasn't been a real pandemic in several decades. If a pandemic strikes it will be no different from any that have occured before, probably not even as bad considering how people OVERREACT.

Second, you guys make it sound like a mass extinction is PLANNED and man is listed on some agenda, not just inevitable but purposeful. You also seem to think something less than a major asteroid collision can cause extinction.

An ice age would cause a minor extinction, since there have been many ice ages in recent history it wouldn't make sense for there to be a major extinction. And when ice recedes, more land becomes habitable and speciation occurs again.

Right now man is homogenizing, much to the chagrin of racists everywhere. Man is the kind of animal that doesn't need to adapt genetically to his environment because he is intelligent enough to make tools faster than animals can evolve. Man only changes to suit his tastes.

Columbus - Thanks for your contribution.

IMO - it is not overreaction to conduct trends analysis and consider the future in all its myriad possibilities - including the uncomfortable ones.

If you read any background material at all, you would know that the concerns are legitimate.

I do not personally believe mankind is slated for total extinction, nor do I believe technology will "save" us.

The evidence shows that we have altered our environment at the molecular level, and consequently, we need to adapt at the molecular level - and evolve to survive in our 'new' biosphere.

...We are living in interesting times, and the emperor is buck naked.

The overreaction that I refer to is the CNN Effect (a rapid spike with a narrow window). A normal reaction would grow gradually with the incoming data, a phase ignored by the general public, and plateau at the most effective response level.

Take global warming as another example. It's been ignored and laughed at for years, but now the response level has spiked. What do you think the outcome will be?


The primary cause of extinction will be starvation. I knew this over five years ago. That's how long it took to get into the narrow vision of the average person. (edit)the integrals are probably equal(/edit)


Since man first evolved "technology" has been his only means of survival. Man is too ubiquitous to go extinct. Only animals that are already endangered go extinct without a major cataclysm.


Are you referring to carcinogens?


[edit on 18-4-2007 by Columbus]

Point being we are facing several major cataclysms - not the least of which is biological - and they are converging.





"Carcinogens" may be the most manageable problem. Look to latent disease and the ubiquitous triggers.

The thing is even if you produce the hard cold facts people do not want to make conscious change for themselves let alone the global situation. If you start worrying about it all too much, you will be paralized or depressed. Prion's are in the air, GM substances are in everything, cows are fed chickens, the list goes on. The earth needs to downsize. And welfare babies are being born as cannon fodder everyday by astronomical numbers, that has raised the big red flag to the medical community.

RE: look to latent disease and its ubiquitous triggers.

...The evidence suggests that welfare programs were created to promote human breeding, and thus, to jumpstart human evolution.

It didn't work btw - as illustrated by degenerative chronic disease, now pandemic.





[edit on 18-4-2007 by soficrow]

What do you mean? This is obfuscating.

It is impossible for any disease to completely destroy an entire population. Even the worst diseases known to man, like Marburg and Ebola, have survivors.

Viruses mutate at observable rates because they reproduce at an exorbitant rate. Viri do not have a "purpose" to kill people.