US B52 aircraft challenge China air zone

deadcalm
reply to post by Zaphod58

 

Hypocrisy is what I have been talking about...so yes, I see it. Let me say this again....I do not agree with ANY nation using the threat of military might to take something that does not belong to them. Diplomacy is always the answer. Are we clear on that? It's not OK for China and it's not OK for the US.

The point I am making, is that the overflight was not helpful in any way. It just serves to further ratchet up tensions in the region. There is nothing to be gained by sending bombers that were originally designed to deliver nuclear weapons to Russia

I was also trying to illustrate how absurd it is for the US to point fingers at any other nation, given your history. The US has no moral high ground to stand on. In many ways you are just as bad as the Chinese...very little separates your countries anymore. Indefinite detention, torture, extra judicial killings of American citizens, the largest per capita percentage of your citizens in prisons, your free speech is under attack constantly....illegal spying on your own citizens, allies and enemies alike.....just like the Chinese you have an upper class that rules the rest of the population and is immune to the laws that they don't hesitate to enforce on the common man.

SEE THE HYPOCRISY???

Ok let me make this easy for you if countries allow China to claim this area unchallenged. This means they can place claim on any international waters. By a country excersizing there right to fly over international waters shows China there claim means nothing. Now the only countries that would be capable of doing this are Russia and the US and possibly the UK. Australia all ready backed down and started filing flight plans along with the philippines. Why did these countries do this simple China scares the hell out of them. If the US did not make this challenge then China would have a claim on the territory since other countries would follow their rules. Even though the claim isnt legitimate it makes little difference if you scare everyone in to doing what you want anyway. Its like the bully in the school yard asking for your lunch money you give it to him but its not stealing or is it?

China came out and admitted they knew the b-52's were flying and did nothing about it.
Paper tiger China says it monitored U.S. B-52s that flew through its new air zone, was afraid to act
www.abovetopsecret.com...

deadcalm

So by your logic...say I were to sell a house to someone....would that give me the right to dictate or even be involved in any decisions or disputes involving the house I no longer own? Of course not....no different here. The US no longer has any claim to the islands...not their business.

But more importantly, what was to be gained by the US pulling the provocative move it did by flying two bombers over the islands? Bombers that were designed to carry nuclear weapons I might add. Do you think this will make the Chinese back off? Are they just going to run away and give up the islands? All this did was ratchet up tensions.

No, by logic; if I (USA) sold a home to someone else (Japan), and they agreed to never put up a security system around the home to protect it from a neighbor invasion attempting to steal from them, in exchange for a written contract that indicated I would monitor and protect the home from invasion on their behalf (Japanese Constitution).

And the neighbor broke in.

Who is responsible for removing the invader?

That is the facts of your metaphor.

God Bless,

reply to post by deadcalm


All this was in the 90s after the cold war ended there was no perceived threat and the Japanese started asking why the us was there. Since then however with the threat from Korea and China the Japanese are now in full support of US troops being stationed there and in fact if we tried to pull out would remind of us of our treaty obligations. In fact in 2009 US forces were being removed from Okinawa and re stationed in Guam. However Japan had asked for US forces in the area to be increased in light of the threats posed by china and the Obama administration returned the troops back to Okinawa. Its sole purpose is to make Japan feel better knowing we would help to repel a first strike. Japan knows there Armed forces is inadequate to protect Japan thus the change in there policy allowing offensive weapons. Cant use news articles form a decade ago to show current relations between the US and japan.

reply to post by dragonridr

However, both Washington and Tokyo are facing an unusually strong pushback from many of the 1.4 million residents on Okinawa, including a large demonstration and acts of civil disobedience of a sort not seen here in decades. A rally last month drew as many as 100,000 people, the largest anti-base demonstration on the island since a similar-size one that followed the rape of an Okinawan schoolgirl by three American servicemen in 1995.

Anger has spread beyond those island residents who oppose the base from the left. Even conservatives, who have traditionally backed Japan’s postwar security alliance with the United States, warn that Okinawans could now turn violently against not only Futenma but also the entire American presence.

Source


Not quite as you put it

reply to post by ken10


Why'd you leave out that the biggest part of that protest was over the deployment of V-22 Osprey, which are seen as dangerous after some well publicized crashes during development?

ken10
reply to post by dragonridr

 

However, both Washington and Tokyo are facing an unusually strong pushback from many of the 1.4 million residents on Okinawa, including a large demonstration and acts of civil disobedience of a sort not seen here in decades. A rally last month drew as many as 100,000 people, the largest anti-base demonstration on the island since a similar-size one that followed the rape of an Okinawan schoolgirl by three American servicemen in 1995.

Anger has spread beyond those island residents who oppose the base from the left. Even conservatives, who have traditionally backed Japan’s postwar security alliance with the United States, warn that Okinawans could now turn violently against not only Futenma but also the entire American presence.

Source


Not quite as you put it

Im n ot talking about Okinawa im talking about Tokyo there government. In Okinawa they hate US aircraft being there there loud and disrupt there life. No surprise there you find that in the US near our own military bases. As i said the Japanese government now opposes the removal of US troops they have the right at any time to request removal. But they are not stupid they know without a US presence it would only take a year at mst and they would be fighting Korea.

reply to post by Shugo

If you're going to make a valid argument, why not use credible resources to support your claim instead of lazily googling what you're trying to find. Use some media references that give actual reports of the numbers, or actually find the polling results yourself.

If you look back to my previous posts I linked an ABCnews article that gave an estimate of the number of protesters. I also linked an article in TIME magazine that also had figures for the number of protesters. I also linked a May 2010 PRAVDA article that detailed that 71% of Okinawans want the US base removed.

Are these sources not sufficient? Not credible enough?

reply to post by deadcalm


And you'll find the same numbers around some bases in the US. If you ask the Japanese government, and the people on the Japanese mainland, they want and appreciate having the US there. And the Okinawa base is being moved.

And you'll find the same numbers around some bases in the US.

reply to post by Zaphod58


What does that say about the US military?

If you ask the Japanese government, and the people on the Japanese mainland, they want and appreciate having the US there

Yes perhaps they do...but the people that ACTUALLY live near these bases don't. I could see people supporting something when it isn't them that have to deal with living and working near these bases. It's easy to get behind something when it's not your 12 year old daughter being gang raped by a bunch of Marines.

And the Okinawa base is being moved.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!

We are not going to play games with the Chinese. We are not going to just sit back and allow them to consume every single natural resource on this planet. What the hell do some of you think we have been doing for the last 20 years all over the world, bringing freedom to the Iraqi people? LMAO!

Right or wrong, the discussion is not about who is righteous, cause neither of us are. There has been a shadow war going on behind the scenes, and that is the battle for Earth's resources. Surely only a fool would believe that China would not do the same if we were no longer on the World stage, they are starting to attempt it now anyway, and it's not going to fly.

I know, it's a hypocritical dog eat dog world that we all live in. Interests vary, just as individual support for those interests vary as well. I myself do not like a lot of it, but I sure as hell understand the reasons for some of it.

China should think twice and not back themselves into a corner. Why give the masters of puppets a reason? I would imagine that a War with China where they were in the end defeated would erase all prior U.S debt that they are carrying and the pre-text to such a conflict can be as simple as bringing freedom to the Chinese people. See what I just did there? ~$heopleNation

reply to post by deadcalm


It says that people don't like loud noise. You'll find higher numbers around civilian airports and in flight paths.

Regardless of any other point, this ADIZ is illegal, no matter what you say about it, or how you say it.

Regardless of any other point, this ADIZ is illegal, no matter what you say about it, or how you say it.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Since when did the US get so concerned over the law, either domestic or international? Oh yeah...because this time it suits them to do so. Must be nice to be able to subjectivly sprinkle the law around when it best suits.

reply to post by deadcalm


The US has always exercised right of free passage, which is exactly what this amounts to, as well as being a slap in the face to a close ally.

reply to post by Trubeeleever


Thanks I liked the kangaroo one, lol.. seriously though if china flew into our airspace it would be different. We are talking international airspace and it has been since the end of ww2. That is the point.

The think is China wants to be a military player, their not. Yea, they can theoretically field a billion man army but you have to be able to move them, feed them, move the bullets, etc. They can't do that. They have one very old air craft carrier the russians pawned off on them. It would be gone in the first hour of any conflict.

They know they have problems coming. Their people are hungry for anything western. They want more cars, jeans, oil, golden arches, you name it. They can't support this for very long. Hell they can't even breath in Bejing most days. They need a military because they are going to have to take what they don't have in the very near future. 2 billion and counting and they all want more more more lol...

Look for them to continue to build their military and flex their muscles... they want to be world players. they see russia acting like they matter and it pisses them off.

If they flew into our air space they would not be flying long..... lol

the bot

reply to post by deadcalm


They have also allowed the right of free passage through US airspace as well, almost without restriction.

reply to post by deadcalm


You don't read your sources very well do you?

It was in relation to the deployment of the Osprey, not the actual presence of the U.S. Military at that base. There are quite a few news stories on that particular incident, but funnily enough there aren't any in regards to general military presence being a burden. So no, that's not a valid source for your claim, as your claim was in regards to the Japanese not wanting the United States there, and so far there hasn't been anything to support that.

reply to post by buddha


This is a cold war type incident.

Nobody will shoot.

It is more like theater than war.

SheopleNation
We are not going to play games with the Chinese. We are not going to just sit back and allow them to consume every single natural resource on this planet. What the hell do some of you think we have been doing for the last 20 years all over the world, bringing freedom to the Iraqi people? LMAO!

Right or wrong, the discussion is not about who is righteous, cause neither of us are. There has been a shadow war going on behind the scenes, and that is the battle for Earth's resources. Surely only a fool would believe that China would not do the same if we were no longer on the World stage, they are starting to attempt it now anyway, and it's not going to fly.

I know, it's a hypocritical dog eat dog world that we all live in. Interests vary, just as individual support for those interests vary as well. I myself do not like a lot of it, but I sure as hell understand the reasons for some of it.

China should think twice and not back themselves into a corner. Why give the masters of puppets a reason? I would imagine that a War with China where they were in the end defeated would erase all prior U.S debt that they are carrying and the pre-text to such a conflict can be as simple as bringing freedom to the Chinese people. See what I just did there?

~$heopleNation

edit on 27-11-2013 by SheopleNation because: TypO

Going to war to erase the debt is very dangerous.

What if you lost? or it was an stalemate?

USA is doing it right (printing money). But so far the added money has not been able to re-industrialize USA (which is needed badly). The added money in going towards consumption and straight to China.

This is why I have argued on ATS that there are structural problems with USA economy. The economy has reached a saturation point.

China is a bully trying to take over the whole playground so the small kids would give him their lunch money in order to have his permission to play there.

China is expanding its territory through sheer intimidation and total disregard for international laws governing air and sea territories. It's claming territories less than 100 km off the Philippines / over 1500 km from its mainland!!!

They are building military platforms and parking military vessels LESS THAN 100 km from another country! Can you imagine how absurd that is. How would you feel if someone just dug in your backyard one night and started erecting a bungalow without your permission, claiming it to be theirs.

Now its claiming an area that overlaps with Taiwanese, Japanese and Korean air space. The nerve of these guys.

I'd rather have the U.S. tap dancing around East and Southeast Asia than to have China spitting on everyone's flag. At least the U.S. talks to you in person and gives you the bs you wanna hear. They even ask permission at times to enter your house so they could raid your fridge. China on the other hand doesn't even show up in a meeting, dismissing you like an annoying fly with a wave of a hand. They just barge in your front door and take your wife, dog, your wife's sister and your treasured collection of Michael Jackson memorabilia all the while having a beer that you just bought.

Look at China now. Cat got their tongue. No comment on the U.S. fly by. Who's the bully now?