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US B52 aircraft challenge China air zone

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posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 06:48 AM
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starfoxxx
hoo ha ha Let me take yo picta!!!

Look who's still TOP DOG!! The USA that is right. China dare take a jab at one of our bombers their done.
Over, the peking duck is goosed.


Dont see how? Unless the usa nukes china there not much it could do rather than attack some military targets with airstriked, any land occupation of china would be doomed.




posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 07:02 AM
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There's a lot of herping of the derp in this thread of ignorance. Let me spoon feed this to the pleb masses in easily digestible point form:

• This isn't about those floating rocks ― it's about long simmering historical enmity between the two nations; for reasons such as Japan's refusal to apologise (or even acknowledge) their atrocities in Nanjing 1937. No that China have the wherewithal to start pressuring their mortal enemies, their doing it.

• The Chinese are testing the U.S. resolve with respect to their "pivot towards Asia" policy, to see how far they can push their 'expansion plans' without raising the ire of the West.

• China, or 'The Middle Kingdom', consider themselves 'special' and kind of look down on most other races. This stems from their comparatively old culture and also the fact that had the Confucians not turned the nation inward in the late 1400's, the world would be speaking Mandarin now and scrawling those near indiscernible scribbles to communicate with each other. As such, there exists an innate desire within them to reclaim what they perceive as their rightful place on the throne.

• Speaking to a Chinese ex pat, it's clear that although the Chinese do not like Anglo-Saxon people (despite copying almost every aspect of their culture!), they do respect 'us'. Insofar as, when we've engage in conflict with them, it been within the rules of war. This modicum of respect does not apply to the Japanese, however (e.g., see: Unit 471).

• The Japanese lay claim to those rock, but it was the West who bestowed it upon them after WWII via the San Francisco Peace Treaty. China's claim goes back hundreds of years before that. Who has the 'right' to claim the region now is the $64K question.

• The resources said to lay beneath the rocks serve to provide extra incentive for the resource rapacious China to press hard for this zone to be under their auspice and their's alone. Japan, too - a nation with limited natural resources - wouldn't mind some oil and gas to go with their 1200-Becquerel sashimi.

• Japan's economy and social structure is a basket case. Throw in Fukushima, and you have the perfect ingredients for the promotion of nationalistic fervour in order to distract the populace from the impending domestic problems they're facing / about to face. Recent military parades in Japan are the early signs of this new, assertive militaristic stance. Remember: it was Japan who made the first move by purchasing the islands from a private owner in 2012; thus incensing the Chinese, which lead to the current situation.

• China, too, aren't growing at the rate they once were and the politburo's place is not as secure as it once was (700-odd protests a day). So, correspondingly, they're ratcheting up the nationalistic rhetoric.


Do not try to view these 'Asian disputes' through a Anglo prism or you'll never sort the wheat from the chuff.



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 07:06 AM
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crazyewok
any land occupation of china would be doomed.

Only because an occupying force would be unacclimated to the pollution conditions.


I'm pretty sure the US could successfully invade and occupy China. Why would they want to do that? You'd have half-a-billion people to babysit (unless the Japanese wanted the job).



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 07:21 AM
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Snarl

crazyewok
any land occupation of china would be doomed.

Only because an occupying force would be unacclimated to the pollution conditions.


I'm pretty sure the US could successfully invade and occupy China. Why would they want to do that? You'd have half-a-billion people to babysit (unless the Japanese wanted the job).


Your jokeing right?

It would be like someone trying to ocuppy the usa. First of all its to vast.

Plus in china you have vast deserts, vast mountin ranges and vast jungles all of which the US military have trouble with in just small countrys on there own. In china you would be fighting iraw, afghanistan and vietnam like war all at once.

China to vast with to difficult terrain and it has too many people.

The usa would to even think of such a endevour have to mobilise on a scale not seen since ww2.

Western civilians and possible military are to soft. For decades now a hard fought battle for us is a handfull dead and a few 10's wounded. And that creates even a media outcry and shock. Invasion of china would go back to the ww2 style losses of lossing 10,00 americans dead in a week or even a day. Those at home would not take that, nor i think could some ground units who are used to just walking over the enemy with ease.



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 07:36 AM
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reply to post by crazyewok
 

My comment was tongue-in-cheek. The whole subject is the joke.

But ... if you had to seriously consider an invasion/occupation ...

First, the Chinese people are well accustomed to subjugation. That's a huge element no one ever properly considers. Without leadership the vast majority would capitulate in very short order.

Second, I can't think of a country America hates more. They're the current threat. The mindset of the American people involved in a face-to-face conflict with China would accept the losses ... they'd be expected. I also don't think there are a large number of countries who wouldn't turn their heads the other way while America went about its business. And they are VERY good at war (remember?).

The wild card is a Chinese nuclear response. That's the thing that'll not be tested. Refer back to line 1 ... and then let's go convince some more people to get their flu shots.



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 08:38 AM
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iLemming
There's a lot of herping of the derp in this thread of ignorance. Let me spoon feed this to the pleb masses in easily digestible point form:



• The Japanese lay claim to those rock, but it was the West who bestowed it upon them after WWII via the San Francisco Peace Treaty. China's claim goes back hundreds of years before that. Who has the 'right' to claim the region now is the $64K question.

• The resources said to lay beneath the rocks serve to provide extra incentive for the resource rapacious China to press hard for this zone to be under their auspice and their's alone. Japan, too - a nation with limited natural resources - wouldn't mind some oil and gas to go with their 1200-Becquerel sashimi.


If you're going to "spoon feed the pleb masses" at least get your facts straight first. The US didn't "bestow" the islands upon Japan after WWII. Japan annexed them in the late 1800s, and China said nothing. The islands were under US control from 1945-1970 when they were returned to Japan. The first interest anyone outside Japan showed in them was after the 1968 report showing the resources under the islands.



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 08:38 AM
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edit on 11/29/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 08:47 AM
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www.zerohedge.com...


China's escalation and re-escalation described in detail yesterday, has just been met with a corresponding re-re-escalation by Japan.

China's Ministry of Defense reports that the nation identified Japanese military planes that entered into Chinese air defense identification zone today.
7 batches of 10 Japanese planes consisting of E-767, P-3 and F-15 entered into the zone
China has also identified 2 batches of 2 U.S. surveillance planes consisting of P-3 and EP-3, without specifying whether the planes entered into the zone
China scrambled Su-30, J-11 and other aircraft in response.


Seems to be warming up a bit.



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 09:16 AM
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Zaphod58
reply to post by ken10
 


It has nothing to do with changing course. You are trying to ignore the Senkaku Islands, and you can't. The Japanese ADIZ is based on the Senkaku Islands. That's like saying the US can't set up an ADIZ over Hawaii, even though it belongs to the US.

You're trying to argue that because the US and Russia share an EEZ near Alaska, then Russia can set up an ADIZ over the US, and vice versa. It doesn't work that way. You can apologize for China all you want, but it's against international law to set up an ADIZ over territory that doesn't belong to you. That's exactly what China did.

The 12 mile limit isn't just around Japan, it's around any territory that Japan owns, which means that it's around the Senkaku Islands as well. Japan is not in the wrong, no matter how badly you want to lambaste them and make them out to be bad guys here.
edit on 11/28/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11/28/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)


You spout utter rubbish


China says that the Diaoyu islands have been part of its territory since ancient times, serving as important fishing grounds administered by the province of Taiwan. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has said that this is "fully proven by history and is legally well-founded".


Source

So China has just as much right as Japan to include those Islands within its ADIZ.

And now lets rewind a week, before China announced its ADIZ.... Why is it acceptable for Japan to declare its own ADIZ hundreds of miles into international airspace.?


edit on 29-11-2013 by ken10 because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-11-2013 by ken10 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 09:25 AM
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ken10
You spout utter rubbish



China says that the Diaoyu islands have been part of its territory since ancient times, serving as important fishing grounds administered by the province of Taiwan. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has said that this is "fully proven by history and is legally well-founded".


And I'm the one with the bias here. Funny how after 1895 when Japan annexed the islands, China didn't even try to reclaim those islands until after the 1968 minerals report.


Q2: What are the grounds for Japan's territorial sovereignty over the Senkaku Islands?
A2:
The Senkaku Islands were not included in the territory which Japan renounced under Article 2 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951 that legally defined the territory of Japan after World War II. Under Article 3 of the treaty, the islands were placed under the administration of the United States as part of the Nansei Shoto Islands. The Senkaku Islands are included in the areas whose administrative rights were reverted to Japan in accordance with the Agreement between Japan and the United States of America Concerning the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands that entered into force in 1972.
The Senkaku Islands have historically and consistently been part of the Nansei Shoto Islands which have been part of the territory of Japan. From 1885, surveys of the Senkaku Islands had been thoroughly conducted by the Government of Japan through the agencies of Okinawa Prefecture and through other means. Through these surveys, it was confirmed that the Senkaku Islands had been not only uninhabited but also showed no trace of having been under the control of the Qing Dynasty of China. Based on this confirmation, the Government of Japan made a Cabinet Decision on January 14, 1895, to erect markers on the islands to formally incorporate the Senkaku Islands into the territory of Japan. These measures were carried out in accordance with the internationally accepted means of duly acquiring territorial sovereignty under international law (occupation of terra nullius). The Senkaku Islands are not part of Formosa (Taiwan) and the Pescadores Islands that were ceded to Japan from the Qing Dynasty in accordance with Article II of the Treaty of Shimonoseki, concluded in April 1895.

www.mofa.go.jp...

But China has a long claim on them and has lots of interest in keeping them.



And now lets rewind a week, before China announced its ADIZ.... Why is it acceptable for Japan to declare its own ADIZ hundreds of miles into international airspace.?


Because they declared it over the Islands that belong to them. What part of Chinese territory did they put it over again? The Senkaku Islands have been Japanese territory for over 100 years. So what part of Chinese territory did Japan place their ADIZ over again?

You can not place an ADIZ over someone else's territory. I guess you'd be ok with Russia placing an ADIZ over Alaska then right? Or the US putting one over Russia. I mean hell, let's just put them over everyone's sovereign territory since you say it's ok.

edit on 11/29/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11/29/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11/29/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 09:26 AM
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khimbar
www.zerohedge.com...


China's escalation and re-escalation described in detail yesterday, has just been met with a corresponding re-re-escalation by Japan.

China's Ministry of Defense reports that the nation identified Japanese military planes that entered into Chinese air defense identification zone today.
7 batches of 10 Japanese planes consisting of E-767, P-3 and F-15 entered into the zone
China has also identified 2 batches of 2 U.S. surveillance planes consisting of P-3 and EP-3, without specifying whether the planes entered into the zone
China scrambled Su-30, J-11 and other aircraft in response.


Seems to be warming up a bit.


And I think it will get warmer, China have put themselves in a position where to back off would be to lessen their claim to those Islands..and with that also maybe the claims to the areas resources.



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by Zaphod58
 





And I'm the one with the bias here. Funny how after 1895 when Japan annexed the islands, China didn't even try to reclaim those islands until after the 1968 minerals report.


I am not showing bias to China, Taiwan also lay claim to those Islands...and if they were to declare an ADIZ that encompassed those Islands, I think they would be fully entitled to.....But you fail to take anything into consideration, it is a mentality I cannot understand.

The Islands ownership is disputed, and merely stating something is yours does not automatically make it yours. And the claim that Japan have owned those islands for a century or more, Well I'll ask you this....Has China ever acknowledged this ?



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 09:46 AM
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China is the least the Americas problems. Japan already comes close to being able to handle them on their own and they should be allowed to build their military so they can completely handle China by themselves. Tons of money has been spent over the years to try to keep Asia stable and peaceful but at the end of the day unless the nations of Asia want that there is little that can be done. It's probably time to pull forces from the region and get those soldiers back home spending their money in America. The greatest weakness right now is the economy and until that is fixed in the long term America won't be in the position to decide anything or protect anyone or anything.



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by ken10
 


I'm open to things, but according to you, anyone can place an ADIZ over anyone else's territory.

China and Japan signed a treaty after the Sino-Japan war, in which Formosa and "all islands in the surrounding area" were ceded to Japan without defining that area. Japan has stated that the islands were incorporated prior to the treaty being signed. China acknowledges that they were forced to cede sovereignty after the Sino-Japan war. They also claim that when they "retook" Taiwan after WWII they regained sovereignty over the Senkakus.



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by Zaphod58
 





I'm open to things, but according to you, anyone can place an ADIZ over anyone else's territory.


Well that just shows you are not open to things, because you will not acknowledge that those Islands ownership are in dispute.....Those Islands are Japanese according to Japan, Chinese according to China, and Taiwanese according to Taiwan.

Now what part of that don't you understand.



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 10:13 AM
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reply to post by ken10
 


Zaphod pretty well laid out the authority behind his opinions, you did not, do you have cites for your claims of disputed ownership?



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 10:14 AM
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reply to post by ken10
 


It seems obvious they belong to Japan given they were recently sold to Japan by a private entity or do you believe Japan should be robbed of their purchase? I hope their money is refunded if that is the case. China is trying to play a game of divide and conquer and the sooner Japan is allowed to rebuild their military the sooner this game becomes impossible. I'm no fan of Japan and my grandfather went through hell fighting them but if a claim for the islands were to be made it needed to come much sooner than this to have credibility. What is done is done and it's best to move on.



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 10:14 AM
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reply to post by whywhynot
 


I'm pretty sure I added sources to my posts.


You might like this one... from 2002/05/08



(3) Issue of Diaoyu Islands

Diaoyu Island and its affiliated islands (Japan calls them as Senkaku Islands) lie in the East China Sea, around 92 nautical miles Northeast of Chilung City, Taiwan Province of China, which are mainly composed of Diaoyu Island, Huangwei Yu, Chiwei Yu, Nanxiao Dao, Beixiao Dao Island and some reefs, covering an area of 6.3 square kilometers altogether. Of all the islands, Diaoyu Island is the biggest one with an area of about 4.3 square kilometers.

Diaoyu Island and its affiliated islands have long been the inherent territory of China. Like Taiwan, Diaoyu Islands are inalienable part of the territory of the People's Republic of China. China enjoys indisputable sovereignty over these islands and the natural resources in its affiliated sea areas. China's sovereignty over these islands is fully proven by history and is legally well-founded.

In view of the different positions on Diaoyu Islands from the Japanese side, the Chinese government, proceeding from the development of the Sino-Japanese relations and on condition of adhering to the Chinese consistent positions, reached an understanding with the Japanese government: (1) The issue of the Diaoyu Islands shall be shelved for future settlement, (2) neither sides should take unilateral actions and (3) The two sides should try to prevent this issue from becoming an disturbing factor in the overall bilateral relations.

In recent years, the Japanese right wings from time to time created incidents over the Diaoyu Islands. The Chinese side made solemn representations to the Japanese side through diplomatic channels. The Japanese government affirmed their basic position of neither participating nor supporting for the activities of the right wings. The action of the right wings is detrimental to the development of Sino-Japanese relations and runs counter to the stand of the Japanese government.


edit on 29-11-2013 by ken10 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by ken10
 


And yet even Asian legal scholars say that Japan has the stronger claim.

And don't even sit there trying to say that I don't even acknowledge the dispute. I've spent more time researching this than a lot of people have, and I have numerous posts on here talking about this dispute. The simple fact is Japan has the strongest claim, and you can't place an ADIZ over other countries territory. Yet China even placed one over an existing Korean one. But I suppose that's ok too, because China claimed a Korean reef under it, right?



posted on Nov, 29 2013 @ 11:02 AM
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Zaphod58
reply to post by ken10
 


And yet even Asian legal scholars say that Japan has the stronger claim.

And don't even sit there trying to say that I don't even acknowledge the dispute. I've spent more time researching this than a lot of people have, and I have numerous posts on here talking about this dispute. The simple fact is Japan has the strongest claim, and you can't place an ADIZ over other countries territory. Yet China even placed one over an existing Korean one. But I suppose that's ok too, because China claimed a Korean reef under it, right?


Well as as far as I'm aware there are more contested islands, one is contested between Japan, China and South Korea. Though I haven't looked into that one.

However since it is Japan that has imposed its ADIZ first and encompassed the disputed Islands, why wouldn't China consider that a provocation and take similar action ?

Actions and reactions, cause and effect and all that.



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