Why I will never support the Libertarians.

First let me say there are many, many good Libertarians and my comment are not reflections on them. This is just my opinion.

First, if I have it right, the general idea that I get is a "live and let live", as long as it's within the Constitution. As the Constitution is directed at Gov't, then I assume your referring to elected legislators. Not "The People".

As the Constitution restrains gov't, it's LAW that restrains people, not the Constitution. Do I have this right?

In an earlier thread I got into it with a libertarian who used the Mosque at ground zero as his example of "violating the constitution". Yet, if Libertarians ran the show, they couldn't stop "The People" from stopping it due to their own belief that laws restricting them to the Constitution would bar them from making any law regarding religion as a violation of the separation of church and state. So the whole concept of how they would implement this concept escapes me.

But that's not the point of this thread.

There is a culture war that we are in the middle of. I won't bore going over that. However, as in a shooting war, as this one is not, fortunately, one doesn't "live and let live" towards the "enemy'. One defeats him.

To those that will jump in and say "you fool, don't you realize that both sides are being duped by the 'elite'"?

I answer I DON'T CARE. I want our culture to win no matter who's pulling the damn strings. We can always take care of them afterwards. We outnumber them by just a bit...

So to make it simple, we have the anarchists who say "no rules". Then the Libertarians who say "Constitution only...then no rules." Then there's the conservatives that say, "constitution and rules". Our rules. Our Judeo-Christian moral code rules. That which worked in the past and helped put America on the top in virtually every category one could think of. Workability. Tried and true.

The Constitution is useless without a group that has a moral code, with the majority following that moral code as best as they can. "laws" add consequences to violating that moral code, not live and let live.

Truth be told, the reason we are in this mess is due, at least partially, to having already being suck into "live and let live". We've done it with our culture, our language, our institutions, our gov't...the list is a long one.

We went from a heterosexual society, at least in public, to the point where our senate is drafting laws against discriminating against gays. At the same time, the 'discrimination' against gays is being replaced with discrimination against Christians. In the military, gov't, schools and the list grows as we speak.

So all "live and let live" has gotten us is a degraded moral level, an ineffective/repressive gov't, yet again..on and on.

You want MORE live and let live????

I think not.

I'm not a rocket scientist, so forgive my simplistic thread. Although, sometimes simple is better...just look under your hood sometime..

As the Constitution restrains gov't, it's LAW that restrains people, not the Constitution. Do I have this right?

No you have it wrong. The constitution is the main law of the land. Also there is no law saying anything about the separation of church and state.

So to make it simple, we have the anarchists who say "no rules". Then the Libertarians who say "Constitution only...then no rules." Then there's the conservatives that say, "constitution and rules". Our rules. Our Judeo-Christian moral code rules. That which worked in the past and helped put America on the top in virtually every category one could think of.

Sorry America is not based on Judeo-Christian moral code rules. Jefferson and the other founding fathers said many times Americas ideals were not based on religion.

We went from a heterosexual society, at least in public, to the point where our senate is drafting laws against discriminating against gays. At the same time, the 'discrimination' against gays is being replaced with discrimination against Christians. In the military, gov't, schools and the list grows as we speak.

Yes gay people are the reason why America is in such bad shape. Please show these laws that are being passed discriminating against Christians. They always cry this but never prove it.

No wonder you are against Libertarians sounds like you either want the government to run your life and when it's not running it then it's the churches turn. Thanks but not everyone wants to be a mindless drone.

reply to post by nwtrucker


Brutally honest! Nice!!

reply to post by nwtrucker


Hello conservative American. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I'm on the libertarian side of liberal, so I'm coming from a different place. But I read your post hoping to try to really listen to what you have to say, and feel it.

I think almost anyone who is living in this culture right now sees the immorality. Greed, selfishness and more. Its a lack of effort for higher things, a lack of willingness to make oneself a better person, a lack of striving for the greater good. So we have fallen into a sort of black hole. You see it in policies, you see it in business practices of some. We've lost touch with what's really important in life, the things that are bigger than us.

What makes me as a liberal and you as a conservative is where the moral priorities are placed though. We're sitting here typing on computers, machines more or less invented by Alan Turing in the 1950's. He was a homosexual, and though he broke the Nazi codes, basically invented the modern computer and so much more, he was persecuted till he killed himself by his own government which he served, after the war he was instrumental in winning:

en.wikipedia.org...

Why? Because even though he was a great patriot, he wanted to go to bed with other men.

I look at this sort of thing and see a fundamental moral failure on the part of the British government. (They've sinced apologized for it). Its simply nobody's business what Turing wanted to do with another consenting man in his bed. Its no one's business if a working person wants to smoke a plant like pot, and not go to church. And it is least of all the government's business. These are small things. Large things, like helping win WWII, and inventing computers, are of the scale governments should pay attention to.

On the other hand, if some powerful force is poisoning the groundwater with their activities, I want to know. I want government involved. That could damage my investments in a way the love of two gay men on their own property never could.

So that's my perspective. I feel you on the call for a greater morality, but if its focused on privacy violating nonsense social issues (like gays) while turning a blind eye to huge issues that effect all of us, I have no support.

reply to post by nwtrucker

So to make it simple, we have the anarchists who say "no rules". Then the Libertarians who say "Constitution only...then no rules." Then there's the conservatives that say, "constitution and rules". Our rules. Our Judeo-Christian moral code rules. That which worked in the past and helped put America on the top in virtually every category one could think of. Workability. Tried and true.

It's both the conservatives and the progressives who say "constitution and our rules." You alluded to some of the progressive rules regarding gays and some conservative rules regarding christians.

As a libertarian or to be more honest I'd rather be an anarchist preferring no government whatsoever. Of course in a society you need semblance of order so I'd grudgingly support the Libertarians with the most basic rule set of the constitution.

Anything beyond that is simply a way for other people to take advantage by inserting rules that benefit them. Like the conservatives and progressives. I mean really, do we need people in DC who believe it's their jobs just to create new laws every day, we have too many already.

buster2010


As the Constitution restrains gov't, it's LAW that restrains people, not the Constitution. Do I have this right?

No you have it wrong. The constitution is the main law of the land. Also there is no law saying anything about the separation of church and state.


So to make it simple, we have the anarchists who say "no rules". Then the Libertarians who say "Constitution only...then no rules." Then there's the conservatives that say, "constitution and rules". Our rules. Our Judeo-Christian moral code rules. That which worked in the past and helped put America on the top in virtually every category one could think of.

I quote the Constitution (which BTW is considered a Charter) Article One, Section One:

Article. I.

Section. 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

www.archives.gov...

So yes the power to make LAWS is vested in the Legislative Bodies of Government.

reply to post by nwtrucker


I'm Christian, but the separation of church and state is a must. Not that I fell there is anything inherently wrong with my faith I think there is something inherently wrong with people. Infact thats exactly what the bible teaches. No one in a government capacity should be enacting policy based on their interpertations of faith.

I dont agree with the Libertarian do nothing approach to foreign policy. I do agree with the Libertarian view of personal freedoms of what I can do with my own body.

I don't agree with the Conservative view of deregulation and putting every aspect of our life's for sale to the highest bidder. I do agree with the Conservative view that smaller government is better.

I don't agree with liberal the answer to every problem is more bureaucracy. I do agree with the view of more equality.

Why do we have to tow the party line on every issue???? We can't we take the best from each ideals?

That doesn't work for corruptible men and women!
It doesn't work for people who can't think for themselves and see the world in black and white!

I believe that in the coming election, libertarian views is a must if we have to save ourselves. The reason being is because right now we need to cut down on funding and regulations like you wouldn't believe. We don't even have a penny to spend over seas and yet we're always there blowing things up. At this point in time, we need a group of people that can better manage money. We all need to pitch in or else none of us will make it. The 2% cannot pay a fraction of our debt even if they combined all of their money.

Libertarianism may not be a permanent solution, but it's an immediate "break glass in case of emergency" system that would do this country well until we have stabilized.

reply to post by buster2010


Gee, Buster, sorry if I touched a nerve.

You have an interesting way of twisting what was posted. I didn't say gay was the "cause" of anything. I stated the "line and let live" attitude seemed to be the cause.

Frankly, I could give a rat's rear-end, yours too, apparently, how rich you make your proctologist.

It's when it moves into the political arena that I start taking issue with it.

It crosses my line when California makes all school washrooms co-ed..just to cater to a couple of transgenders.

It crosses my line when two lesbians, apparently a couple, have adopted(?) and are giving the child drugs to stop hormone development so as to allow the child to choose his gender.

It crosses my line when the Boy Scouts of America end up labeled a "hate group" for maintaining their belief system.

That community becomes a "political opponent" for me, indifference becomes activism when one is pushed sufficiently.

Still, the gay issue is only systematic of the live and let live. so many others...

Oh, I didn't say there were "laws" against Christianity, at least not yet, I said discrimination.

In any event, the Constitution reads "the gov't shall not"... it doesn't say the people shall not..

For example, the Catholics in La. could run their state the way they wanted. the sects in Pa. and New England could do their thing. Any federal enforcement of any kind would have destroyed the Union before it even got off the ground.

All in all, other than a weak attempt at insult, you haven't posted anything that changes my viewpoint. Have a nice day...

reply to post by Bassago


I can't argue your point except, during the, so-called Christian era and that particular code, we didn't have that problem with too many laws and all that's going on now, did we.

Is it beyond understanding to see that the subversion of the Constitution is occurring about the same rate as the loss of our moral code/standards??

Isn't it obvious????

reply to post by onthedownlow


Thank you. Will we ever get anywhere without at least trying a little outright honesty?

Source

'nuff said. Even if some members here won't like it. But thats how it would run.

ManFromEurope

Source

'nuff said. Even if some members here won't like it. But thats how it would run.

Sorry, you mispronounced "Sears Society" as Libertarian.

reply to post by tridentblue


Good post, I agree with more than you might think. I totally agree re individuals like the one you referred to. I agree with polluted groundwater eg as well.

Here's what I think you've missed in my view of it. I believe we are at war, culturally, morally, religious-wise, etc.

I believe that being laid back and not speaking out when thing began to get out of hand has gotten this country past any individual issue or individual corporate Faux Pas.

if you see my post above this one regarding just how "political" the professed innocuous gay rights movement has turned into a monster. Now the Army is taking action against Arizona because they don't recognize gay marriages. it's against their constitution. THE ARMY. the group that's supposed to be on a "leash" is politically active!!

It's gone way too far. The more we "live and let live" the more the decibel level goes up with more and more demands. From immigration to schooling, heck I can't think of an area that hasn't had an overdose of "live and let live.

I feel we need some "enough is enough".

tridentblue
I'm on the libertarian side of liberal, so I'm coming from a different place. But I read your post hoping to try to really listen to what you have to say, and feel it.

I think almost anyone who is living in this culture right now sees the immorality. Greed, selfishness and more.

This is the problem with politics. It doesn't matter which side YOU stand on, it matters who you vote for. Are TPTB just pretending to represent your interests? Or are they living them? I see most politicians talking out of the side of their mouths when it comes to the issues. I don't have a problem with YOU or any side you might be standing on. I DO have a problem with some guy shucking and jiving simply to get elected.

reply to post by Bassago


I understand your view.

My only rebut is when we had those "terrible" rules, in the day, this country was great!

It no longer is, IMO.

How do you answer this? I am curious, sincerely.

reply to post by ManFromEurope


This is a conservative attacking Libertarians, you're not weighing in on the debate. Are you saying conservative values are socialist (aka Star Trek)?

reply to post by FyreByrd


I miss your point, the congress is still restrained by the Constitution, not the people. The laws restrain the people...and themselves, I suppose.

I get the congress is empowered by the Constitution, but also restrained by same. Isn't it the laws made by congress the vehicle to restraining the people? that's all I was saying.

My main point is some moral code, yes, imposition on a group is required for that group to function. Even the native American has an unspoken one, if I understand it correctly, It was "don't piss off more people than you befriend"....

reply to post by Em2013


Yah right. I'd love to see a Jihadist with a matter transmitter.....

nwtrucker
reply to post by Bassago

 

I can't argue your point except, during the, so-called Christian era and that particular code, we didn't have that problem with too many laws and all that's going on now, did we.

Is it beyond understanding to see that the subversion of the Constitution is occurring about the same rate as the loss of our moral code/standards??

Isn't it obvious????

Back in the 60's and 70's we still had way too many laws and problems with the pols manipulating the system. We perhaps didn't notice as much because there were a lot less of us then (half the population) but we were still barraged by useless control freaks, even then.

I'm not sure what moral code you refer to. As far as I believe you should be able to do anything you wish as long as it does no harm to others, period. Living back then (late 60's) in rural Texas I'm well aware of the christian influence of morality with blacks, gays and long haired hippies (like myself.) If that is the morality we're losing so be it. Maybe we need to choose a different standard. It certainly brought me a lot of misery.

As far as today's standards it seems America has simply become a self absorbed country. Not quite without standards but pretty close. Libertarians bring the simple standards of the constitution which would work for me and for our country IMO.