Angels: Physical or Immaterial Messengers of God

Some other quotes about the resurrected body of Jesus to think about ...
(seems pretty clear, the body was raised but changed greatly)


1 Peter 3:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:45
Jesus was, "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit"
Jesus became a life-giving spirit ... for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom."

Luke 24:39 After walking through a locked door in his new body Jesus says to the disciples, "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have"

Mark 12:25 makes it clear that there won't be sex in heaven. No procreation. No 72 virgins servicing men for an eternity. Since sex is supposed to be in marriage (according to the Abrahamic religions), and there is no marriage, that means there will be no sex. "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven."

I'm not a Paul fan ... but here you go ...
1 Corinthians 15 (what Paul says ... Jesus died and appeared)

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Paul Teaching on The Resurrected Body ... 1 Corinthians 15

But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory

From Catholic Answers - What will our resurrected bodies be like

The Church teaches that at the resurrection the bodies of the just will be re-modeled and transfigured to the pattern of the risen Christ. Like his body, our resurrected bodies will be those of a person in his prime. They will be incapable of suffering. They will have a spiritual nature—not that they will be pure spirit, but they will be like that of Jesus, who could penetrate closed doors after he had risen. They will have a new agility in that they will be able to obey the soul with great ease and speed—so that when the spirit is willing, the flesh will no longer be weak! Our bodies will be free from all deformity and will reflect God’s beauty to the degree that our souls do.

Teachings on the Resurrected Body through the past 2000 years

These will be the same bodies people had in earthly life—but our resurrection bodies will not die and, for the righteous, they will be transformed into a glorified state, freed from suffering and pain, and enabled to do many of the amazing things Jesus could do with his glorified body (cf. 1 Cor. 15:35–44, 1 John 3:2).

The Fourth Lateran Council (1215), infallibly defined that at the second coming Jesus "will judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad [Rom. 2:6–11]" (constitution 1).

Most recently, the Catechism of the Catholic Church reiterated this long-defined teaching, stating, "‘We believe in the true resurrection of this flesh that we now possess’ (Council of Lyons II). We sow a corruptible body in the tomb, but he raises up an incorruptible body, a ‘spiritual body’ (cf. 1 Cor 15:42–44)" (CCC 1017)

DISRAELI
it seems to me that the witness testimony is more like "One moment it was just us, then he suddenly appeared from nowhere".

That's how I read it.

Which means, to them, he would have had to have come through a locked door or through four solid walls to get there in the room with them. He couldn't come through a locked door with a normal human body. He would have had to materialize inside the room ... which means coming through walls/doors invisible before materializing.

Seems like something a spirit would do. An angel.

But at the same time, he then appeared to eat and invited people to touch his wounds.
So that's physical. And something psychologically calming to tell the people that he's still
one of them and not to be afraid. I see that whole 'touch me' thing as a psychological
thing for the apostles.

Put the two together ... seems he is in a raised body that has greatly changed. It now has the attributes of the angels who are pure spirit but also some of the characteristics of the old human body. Kind of a bit of both.

Which means, he didn't survive the crucifixion or the roman sword through his lungs/heart.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Perhaps I should make it clear;
I have no disagreement with you whatsoever about the nature of the resurrection body. I believe we're on the same wavelength in that respect (I referred to 1 Corinthians myself in my first post on this thread).
I was just questioning whether a conventional phrase was an accurate description of what the disciples would have witnessed.

Akragon
Are do angels have a physical presence or are they immaterial?

Looks to me that angels are pure spirit. They are created beings. They don't have baby angels. They do not procreate. Each and every one is a species in of itself (because there are no procreation partners). They can change appearance but they can't change their essence. That means they can APPEAR to eat and can APPEAR to be male or female if they wish, but they really aren't.

They absolutely have no procreative abilities. Jesus said so. WHich means, the Old Testament folklore about angels procreating with humans is just that ... folklore. Humans making up stories and believing them and/or humans having alien encounters and, not understanding the mechanics of the universe, decided those aliens were really angels. (that explains the 'giants' that have been found).

Looks to me that Jesus died and rose from the dead in his resurrected body but that it was greatly changed. It has the attributes of the angels. The attributes of the spirit. But at the same time, it retained part of the human. Jesus appeared to eat. And he appeared as He was before death. I don't know if that is something we all will be doing OR if it was done for the sake of the apostles so they wouldn't freak out thinking there was a wraith in their midst.

MYSELF ... I'm not sold on us all having a bodily resurrection. It doesn't make sense to me.

Lets keep this discussion civil please...

YES PLEASE!

DISRAELI
I was just questioning whether a conventional phrase was an accurate description of what the disciples would have witnessed.

Ahhhh okay. Yes, the bible (as with other so-called 'holy books') many times doesn't do
a great job in describing what is going on. At least, not a great job describing it for our time
period. Back then, the people would have understood 'appeared in their midst' just fine.
For us, some wonder if that means if he showed up at the locked door or if he materialized
out of thin air.

(I think he just materialized .. traveling via other dimensions ... something a spirit can do)

Angels are both at will and sometimes forced to live this way, they can choose to walk among us and sometimes are forced to be physical as punishment. Christ has the same ability and this why they could not recognize him at times because his body was glowing. Angels also have a gold like glow and a body that looks like crystal and brightness spreads out from the center and can be mistaken for wings and they are very tall.

It's been awhile my friends and I hope you are doing well and God bless.

op, I think angels can zap in and out of physical reality. They are probably higher dimensional beings capable of influencing our reality. I have never seen one, so my guess is as good as the next persons.

I just wanted to thank everyone who posted a reply... but a special thanks to FlyersFan & DISRAELI

The discussion you two have been having really made this thread work...

I've nothing to add at the moment but i'll review all the posts, and hopefully figure out something else to say


Thanks again everyone