Fort Hood: Troops train for riot control

Government shutdown, political strife, EBT failures and closures and all the things needed for civil unrest. Meanwhile at Ft Hood:

Role players help troops train for riot control

Troopers with Charlie Company, 2nd Squadron, 38th Cavalry Regiment, 504th Battlefield Surveillance Brigade, underwent crowd and riot control training last week at Fort Hood’s Elijah urban training site.

The potential use for crowd control ranges from peaceful protesters to full on riots to a scenario such as Hurricane Katrina, where thousands of people were being relocated.

Last week’s round of training was prefaced with classes from the San Antonio Police Department, Shaw said. “It may be that nothing bad ever happens,” Ford said. “They may be mad, but never had hostility toward soldiers. You may be able to walk in with your shields down and speak in a calm tone.”

"Walk in with your shields down?" I don't think so. Sadly this type of training has gone on for decades. I took part in this exact type of training in the early 70's at a US Army base. Unfortunately at that time I had never heard of Posse Comitatus. Probably just like many young soldiers today. If they do walk in it won't be with their shields down.

The entire military is severly lacking in this area. It the event of large natural disaster the active duty military is is completely unprepared beyond a few units to operate in such an situation. Even the National Guard is lacking in this area and since its focus has been taken off disaster rellief to combat ops.

They did the same types of exercises at the base near me a few months ago.

The drills included a bunch of civilians storming the gates to the base. Who knows what they think might be coming.

reply to post by Bassago


Yea I don't see what the problem is here.

Certainly there is always a possibility of riots and civil unrest, even in the best of times, so why wouldn't you want those who are going to deal with it to be fully trained in exactly what to do?

Would you rather have a bunch of guys out there with weapons who panic and are unorganized and may just start shooting or would you rather them know and have practiced a controlled system of control where the risk to themselves and the protesters is decreased?

reply to post by Bassago

You see what has transpired in Egypt with the military squashing riots with full on military blockades and opening up on crowds with machine guns? The training of regular US military for riot control is not for overseas.

The police response to the occupy movement was a picnic comparatively speaking. I don't see that kind of thing happening here though. Americans aren't that hungry... yet.

rt.com...

Those aren't batons and tear gas launchers. They're rifles.

Why should the military be used against protesters. Do you mean people who turn to deadly crime, not just voicing an opinion?

Spookybelle
reply to post by Bassago

 

Yea I don't see what the problem is here.

Certainly there is always a possibility of riots and civil unrest, even in the best of times, so why wouldn't you want those who are going to deal with it to be fully trained in exactly what to do?

Would you rather have a bunch of guys out there with weapons who panic and are unorganized and may just start shooting or would you rather them know and have practiced a controlled system of control where the risk to themselves and the protesters is decreased?

We have National Guard for emergency issues. I don't believe we need active military performing riot control duties in the homeland. If needed give the NG more training.

If their training is similar to what I went through believe me, citizen safety is simply a catch phrase for control and domination by force. For all our "riot" training, confinement and prisoner taking was almost non-existent. Take that as you want, just saying.

intrptr
reply to post by Bassago

 

You see what has transpired in Egypt with the military squashing riots with full on military blockades and opening up on crowds with machine guns? The training of regular US military for riot control is not for overseas.

The police response to the occupy movement was a picnic comparatively speaking. I don't see that kind of thing happening here though. Americans aren't that hungry... yet.

rt.com...

Those aren't batons and tear gas launchers. They're rifles.

That's really the larger point isn't it?

There's no reason to think anything nefarious is going on because there's no reason for them to do so. American's are too apathetic and there is no issue that the country is overly concerned about as a whole to warrant an equal response to control it.

Sure the budget is bad, taxes are bad, they are coming after our guns again, gay rights....blah blah blah.....nothing that is going to spark the entire nation up like what happened in Egypt.

Sure people always claim that the next big thing is on our doorstep but it really isn't. The government would do far more harm by overreacting than any positive benefit they would gain from it.

And they know this.

Take your pick. Are you well established socio-economically, and so lean towards seeing this as a positive in order to keep the order in which you thrive, or are you barely getting by, and see this as a negative, as the establishment gearing up to come and get you...

I'm just an observer, witnessing the insanity while keeping a distance.

Bassago

Spookybelle
reply to post by Bassago

 

Yea I don't see what the problem is here.

Certainly there is always a possibility of riots and civil unrest, even in the best of times, so why wouldn't you want those who are going to deal with it to be fully trained in exactly what to do?

Would you rather have a bunch of guys out there with weapons who panic and are unorganized and may just start shooting or would you rather them know and have practiced a controlled system of control where the risk to themselves and the protesters is decreased?

We have National Guard for emergency issues. I don't believe we need active military performing riot control duties in the homeland. If needed give the NG more training.

If their training is similar to what I went through believe me, citizen safety is simply a catch phrase for control and domination by force. For all our "riot" training, confinement and prisoner taking was almost non-existent. Take that as you want, just saying.

Are you privy to the militaries planning?

Maybe they are switching the roles of the National Guard or supplementing them with normalized troops. Maybe budget cuts are a concern. Maybe...maybe...maybe....

The fact is that you don't know why they are doing this training but wish to assume the worse. When you step back and look at the issue in context you should be able to plainly see that there is no benefit to cracking down on the entire population of the US.

Who gains and what do they gain?

A bunch of pissed off Americans is what they would get and how does that further any goal of theirs? I'd assume they are doing this training to absolutely ensure that nothing gets out of control for that very reason. Having another Kent University situation would not be helpful in the slightest.

reply to post by Spookybelle


You are in the Posse Comitatus forum. Do you understand what that is?

The Posse Comitatus Act is the United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) that was passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of Reconstruction and was updated in 1981. Its intent (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) was to limit the powers of Federal government in using federal military personnel to enforce the State laws.

Bush II fixed that for us with help from our beloved congress.

On September 26, 2006, President Bush urged Congress to consider revising federal laws so that U.S. armed forces could restore public order and enforce laws in the aftermath of a natural disaster, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition.

These changes were included in the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (H.R. 5122), which was signed into law on October 17, 2006.[

Then Obama added his 2 cents to it.

In 2011, U.S. President Barack Obama signed National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 into law. Section 1031, clause "b", article 2 defines a 'covered person', i.e., someone possibly subject to martial law

Source

To top it off the DoD has embraced this wholeheartedly. Here's a link to their documentation if you doubt this. No one should support the removal of Posse Comitatus or military duties caused by it's removal through the NDAA.

DoD Instruction 3025.21 Defense Support of Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies

reply to post by Bassago


Back in 1998 to 2002 my unit trained for civil disobedience once a year....and then they discontinued it cause we got too aggressive with each other....damn infantry....I think its a normal part of training for units and its a great training to have in your red cycle of training...

Most units go through red, amber, green cycles of training...green being all the funding...warm weather usually, etc....red being end of budget and/or maybe the winter time...so we did it during the red phase indoors in a gym. Normal training.

*edit...although...in these times...who wouldnt train for that...the US military is no joke...ive yet to find a company to match their brilliance and I loved my time in the Army...there is someone somewhere who knows soldiers need to be trained in this for when the shtf. I also think if the shtf you would find many units and soldiers aiding the people...no joke...brainwashing only goes so far and lasts so long.

Bassago
We have National Guard for emergency issues. I don't believe we need active military performing riot control duties in the homeland. If needed give the NG more training.

If their training is similar to what I went through believe me, citizen safety is simply a catch phrase for control and domination by force. For all our "riot" training, confinement and prisoner taking was almost non-existent. Take that as you want, just saying.

Today's citizen safety is just a repackaged version of "urban pacification". At least that's what we called it in the early 90's. I wasn't comfortable with those exercises then and less so now with lowered admission/ASVAB standards. Even back then there were too many guys I served with who got way too into the role of pacifying the populace. For all the people who think the military will refuse orders to fire on or harm American's in the continental US you're living in a dream. Orders are orders and with the array of fools serving now you can bet your last dollar that any number of them will get off on the power they will wield over unarmed civilians. Abu Ghraib is coming to a local county jail near you if this ever plays out.

reply to post by cosmicexplorer

I also think if the shtf you would find many units and soldiers aiding the people...no joke...brainwashing only goes so far and lasts so long.

You make some good points and I agree it is great training. Our forces are stronger because of it but I've always been a bit leery of it, doubly so in these times.

Hopefully as you say our troops will know where the line is with their own people. History isn't really kind in regards with this sort of thing though. Hopefully we'll never have to find out.


reply to post by peter vlar

For all the people who think the military will refuse orders to fire on or harm American's in the continental US you're living in a dream. Orders are orders and with the array of fools serving now you can bet your last dollar that any number of them will get off on the power they will wield over unarmed civilians. Abu Ghraib is coming to a local county jail near you if this ever plays out.

This is actually my greatest fear in this scenario. As I said I hope it never comes. God help us if it does.

reply to post by webedoomed


Sagely spoken.Is the military training in riot control good or bad?
That really depends on their orders, doesn't it?
Last time regular army units were used against civilians was when the Bonus army marched on Washington in 1932. Cavalry units charged supported by 6 tanks and a battalion of infantry. 2 marchers later died of injuries sustained. These were veterans who marched to get the bonuses promised them for fighting in WW1 which they still had not received 13 years after the war's end.
I don't think today's army would show as much restraint against their fellow Americans as they did back then - just a guess but people in general are less empathetic imo.

reply to post by Bassago

Riot control is a fundamental mission of the US Armed Forces. It is necessary to protect US forces from riots, just as it is necessary to protect them from air strikes, infantry assaults, and every other form of attack. The Armed Forces also have a domestic riot control mission, defined in the Constitution:

Article IV, Section 4: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.

And defined in statute:

10 USC 332: Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.

10 USC 332:
The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it—
(1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or
(2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.
In any situation covered by clause (1), the State shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution.

On any given day, you will find units of the Armed Forces training for one or another of their missions. You happened to find one training for riot control, one of their oldest and most fundamental missions. You will find other units doing thousands of other things. It's not really a big deal.

reply to post by FurvusRexCaeli

You happened to find one training for riot control, one of their oldest and most fundamental missions. You will find other units doing thousands of other things. It's not really a big deal.

Training and real world are two different things. Preparing for war is the military's primary pastime. Seeding that with a little "civil defense" is not going to influence their regular training that much.

In the style of insurrection they will be called on to surmount (because all else has failed) they will find themselves resorting to their primary role... combat. Especially when they arrive in the SHTF zone.

"Hey guys, when we get there leave the batons in the truck. Lock and load".

Excellent thread OP.

intrptr

In the style of insurrection they will be called on to surmount (because all else has failed) they will find themselves resorting to their primary role... combat. Especially when they arrive in the SHTF zone.

That is what I'm most worried about. Along with the fact of all the wiggle-waggle the administrations, congress and DoD have done completely bypassing Posse Comitatus. (And throwing a little indefinite detention on top for good measure.)

reply to post by cosmicexplorer

"the US military is no joke...ive yet to find a company to match their brilliance"

I think it's important to point out that all forms of military with state funding aren't like what are usually defined as private commercial companies which you seem to be comparing to. The military has quite an advantage, to put it mildly. Militaries have an endless stream of funding coming in obtained through taxation, ie. theft...It is money which is automatically taken from people by the threat of force for non-compliance and is practically never submitted voluntarily, ie. in a manner besides taxation. This is an important distinction. Regular commercial companies are almost exclusively dealing with money received voluntarily by willing customers. A military is the antithesis of this.

I'm not disagreeing with you that the military is no joke or that all of the funding for it is totally unwarranted in this day and age... just making a point about the economics of it.

reply to post by Bassago

That is what I'm most worried about.

We saw it at Kent State. And those (students) kids were throwing rocks. Military units think entirely different than civil authorities when it comes to riots. The founding fathers well knew this and thus separated the two. Not to mention their disdain for standing armies anyway.

Military is not of by and for the people. If the civilian authorities can't handle the "redress of grievances" then maybe its serious enough to warrant change. Not time to call out the army.

Sadly, I watched the Boston Sweep for the felon, too. The differences between the military and police have all but dried up.