"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” - Luke 5:30-32

If the popular Christian doctrine that "all men have sinned" held any merit, Jesus would have said he was here for everybody, because everybody - being sinners - would have needed Jesus.

Instead, Jesus distinguishes the sinners from the righteous.
He acknowledged the existence of righteous people - as opposed to the sinners on whom he was focused on. The righteous make it by their own faith and righteousness whereas its the sinners, "the lost sheep" for whom he came. This theme is echoed in many other places in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, comparisons are made between the "righteous" and the "unrighteous", "wicked". The best example would be the entire chapter of Ezekiel 18. The righteous are contrasted with the unrighteous, in terms of their behavior and the way they would be dealt with.

IMO, being righteous implies refraining from evil and doing good habitually, while of course, believing in God. When a "righteous" man slips by sinning, he would repent and seek forgiveness from God (Psalm 51)... as opposed to an unrighteous man who does not repent and goes on to justify it and being mindless of God.

The prayer that Jesus taught his people does not echo Pauls ideas about all men being sinners and the need for sin sacrifice. Instead it teaches that one needs to forgiving in order to be forgiven by God. Pauls erroneous teaching that "all men have sinned" is a foundation for the doctrine of "sin sacrifice". It takes away the need for repentance on a daily basis through prayer. i.e - "forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us".

God knows best.

Why does God allow you to forgive others but not yourself?

I'm not religious, I just wondered.

Thanks

reply to post by Briles1207

Why does God allow you to forgive others but not yourself?

Self-forgiveness leads to justifying ones sins.
If such a concept existed, murderers would be forgiving themselves every time they kill. Hope that helped.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n
Instead of trying to worm your way out of being a sinner that needs Gods salvation why don't you just admit that you have sinned and except God's salvation that He provided . John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Unless of course you think you can atone for your sin ...but who can forgive sin ,seeing we sin towards God . We are helpless to change the fact that we have sinned before God . Only God has the remedy for our situation and has provided it in His Christ ...it's free to any that would except it ,and believe it ....peace

reply to post by sk0rpi0n
Jesus was teaching them how to pray and was not teaching them what to pray ...It was a sample prayer in the structure of prayer and the things we should be incorporating in our prayers ....peace

reply to post by the2ofusr1

Instead of trying to worm your way out of being a sinner

Not doing any of that, I know my sins.

But you haven't addressed the point in the OP.

Why did Jesus distinguish sinners and righteous people?

That doesn't seem to sit well with the idea that "all are sinners".

reply to post by sk0rpi0n
That question was answered by me as well as another poster on another thread if you would care to remember ....You had taken what Jesus said but failed to add the context of it ..Just like you have done here with the quote of what Jesus prayed ...You really need to start looking at what you are reading instead of reading what you would like to ....use your mind to escape the misunderstanding you are causing to yourself ....peace

reply to post by sk0rpi0n



And when Jesus asked why the Churches and Temples were continuing to be built while He walked by 100's of the hungry and lame,"They" killed Him and pinned it on His bff, Judas. But that is way further along in the story.. Let's start at the beginning.. Adam(u) and Lilith, "made from the same dirt" When Lilith wouldn't bow to Adam(u) (remember they are =) and bear Adam(u) any children, Lilith split. Then the "Quorum" created "Eve" 'made from Adam's rib...'

reply to post by the2ofusr1

That question was answered by me as well as another poster on another thread if you would care to remember

I don't participate in every thread that gets made here.
And whats wrong with discussing it here.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

All had sinned, but some even prior to Jesus, had handed their lives over to God. They were still sinners, but they were sinners in the hands of God.

There are always some who have handed their lives over and lived righteous (which doesn't mean perfect) lives in the eyes of God. Otherwise there would have been no John the Baptist or Noah... as visible examples much less the ones never written about. Everyone is a sinner does not mean that every individual has gone astray, regardless of their sins.

It's that simple. Some were living their lives already in accordance with what he had come to teach even though they were still sinners.

I don't follow the religion, but the premise behind this aspect is not a mystery.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n
I was just saying that is all ...You had brought it up in another thread and it was explained to you in the same manner ...You apparently didn't understand what was explained to you because you did the same thing here ...What do you not understand about context that causes you to repeat your errors ? ...peace

reply to post by the2ofusr1

You had brought it up in another thread and it was explained to you in the same manner

Which thread was it? I don't remember.
I don't recall making a thread on the verse in question.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n
Sorry ..it wasn't a thread you had made in fact it wasn't you in that thread I had replied but was in fact the same issue about context and about righteousness .

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Don't ya know, Scorp? Jesus was only kidding around when he inferred that righteous men existed prior to and during his entrance into this world!

This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. (Gen 6:9)

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. (Job 1:1)

Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. (Mat 1:19)

Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. (Luke 2:25)

And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. (Mat 23:35)

and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) (2 Pet 2:7,8)

Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (James 2:21)

that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Mat 5:45)

Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. (Mat 10:41)

For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. (Mat 13:17)

Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?" (Mat 25:37)

Okay, forget about all that. ^^

Christians need you to believe that you are born a sinner, because of the concept of "Original Sin". Of course, every other religion knows that there is no such thing.

reply to post by windword
Question ...have you ever sinned ?
PS it was you in the other thread who were taking the bible out of context and it was explained in that thread . Now I see you here ,still saying the same things in the same context .....

reply to post by the2ofusr1


"Out of context" is a trite and typical excuse that Christians use when biblical evidence belies their assumptions and they're backed into a doctrinal corner.

Did Abel sin? What was Abel's sin?

Show me one place in the bible, besides Pauline scripture, that teaches original sin, please.

Jesus implied there were righteous people? Well Paul says differently.

Romans 3
10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one

Since Paul's ideas align better with Christian doctrine (go figure), I'm willing to bet Christians will take his words over Jesus'.

Also at the time of Jesus saying this he wasn't that well known, it was early in his ministry. Christian doctrine says that you are only made righteous by believing Jesus died on the cross, so how were there righteous people if Jesus had yet to die on the cross in order for people to believe and become righteous through that belief?

Christians have a ton of loops and holes to jump through in order to justify their beliefs, that fact is not a good indicator of truth.

reply to post by windword
What was the sacrifice that abel offered for ? You didn't answer my question .

reply to post by the2ofusr1


It seems that you don't know the difference between an "offering" and a "sacrifice". Do you tithe? Is tithing a sacrifice or an offering? Why do they pass an "offering plate" at church services?

Have I sinned? I remember an incident when I was 4 years old and my mother accused me of stealing a piece of candy that was actually given to me by a neighbor's mother. My mother spanked me a sent my to my room, telling me to pray to Jesus for forgiveness. I remember telling Jesus that I hadn't sinned, and he knew it!

As a child I was subject to multiple physical and emotion abuses. I was accused of being a sinner because of what other people did to me. I never believed it, and I still don't believe it. If there is a "judgement day", there is nothing in the my past that God doesn't know the cause of. My mistakes are a valuable part of my spiritual evolution. I learn from them, and I'm not ashamed of anything in my past.

reply to post by windword

My question was if you have ever sinned ,not if someone may have accused you wrongfully . I don't go to church and if I did I wouldn't be putting my money into a plate someone was passing around .