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“My heart rejoices in the Lord;
in the Lord my horn is lifted high.
My mouth boasts over my enemies,
for I delight in your deliverance.
Arise, Lord!
Deliver me, my God!
Strike all my enemies on the jaw;
break the teeth of the wicked.
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.
For you have upheld my right and my cause,
sitting enthroned as the righteous judge.
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Endless ruin has overtaken my enemies,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.
Strike them with terror, Lord;
let the nations know they are only mortal.
Break the arm of the wicked man;
call the evildoer to account for his wickedness
that would not otherwise be found out.
She had free will, she could have said no to Gabriel, she could have sinned, but she chose not to do either.
[Don't all of God's children have daily contact with God?]
Yes, in a way, but only Mary changed His diapers. (Or listened to Him as He tried to learn Aramaic, or carpentry, or at play.)
But nobody does something because they expect bad to come from it.
Even if the robber is correct, how in the world did he get the idea that God wanted him to get money by threatening people and stealing it?
[Sin may be committed to impress God.]
Not by a reasonably sane person.
Again, he's nuts. Illusions, falsehoods, and death aren't divine, they don't come from God. The same is true for the addict, although, in his own way, he is also insane. And, as you point out, he has no control over himself.
I don't think righteous and sinless have the same meaning
the best that a Hebrew righteous man could expect was to be sent to Abraham's Bosom.
It wasn't until Christ died and was resurrected that the door to heaven was opened for mankind.
Remember, His whole ministry was to take away sins
If He walked up to someone and said "You've sinned, just like all the rest of mankind. Turn to Me and you'll be saved." I can imagine the self-identified "righteous" man saying something like, "Me? You talkin' to me? I go to temple, I make the sacrifices, I don't cheat people, never killed no one. Why, even the temple priests think I'm an OK guy. So get off my back with that stuff. I got mine, Jack."
Wow! "Pre-programmed?" No free will? Jesus should have written a screenplay "My Mother, the Robot." I don't recall the words I used, but Mary wasn't programmed to do certain things. She was saved from ever being scarred by Original Sin.
I contend, given that Mary was, according to you, pre-programmed by God to be the mother of Jesus, that she couldn't have had free will. She had no control over herself.
This is very interesting. I haven't been able to find Lilith mentioned in the few translations of the Bible I've looked at, let alone talking to anybody. Where should I look for this?
The last person, to my knowledge, to say no to Gabriel was Lilith, and look what happened to her!
Yet,
I don't believe that Jesus is/was God. That is not the kind of God I believe in or is it my definition of divinity.
Jesus didn't "take away" sins. He forgave them, and asks/demands that we do the same.
Sounds to me like Heaven and Paradise are the same place.
Ok, I agree, "Abraham's bosom" is a pretty unsettling image to our minds. But back then, it referred to the place of honor at a feast. It was the seat physically closest to the host. If you'd rather, you might think of it as in "Abraham's lap," but I'm not sure that's a better picture.
the best that a Hebrew righteous man could expect was to be sent to Abraham's Bosom.
YUCK!
In the Gospel of St Luke, in the parable of Dives and Lazarus, Christ says that poor Lazarus goes to the “bosom of Abraham”, while the rich and selfish Dives goes to the torments of Gehenna. The bosom of Abraham is Sheol, shown here, in contrast to Gehenna, as a place of relative comfort and peace. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #633, offers some teaching on this.
In the early Church the bosom of Abraham, Sheol, was identified with “paradise” and as distinct from heaven either as (1) a place of purely natural bliss for those worthy neither of heaven nor hell (in other words, limbo), as for example in St Irenaeus’ Against Heresies; or (2) as a place of preparation for heaven (much like our developed concept of Purgatory), as in Origen’s De Principiis.
But, dear windword, we don't disagree. A soul going to God is a good and holy thing, but death is not. If death, in itself, was a good thing then we would have the duty of killing everyone we could and war would be celebrated and praised.
Illusions, falsehoods, and death aren't divine, they don't come from God.
I couldn't disagree with you more. The Holy Spirit is the divine spark in all of us. When it leaves, one gets a glimpse of the divine. I've seen this with my own eyes. My fathers death was the most awesome thing to have witnessed. His divine spark exploded with unspeakable joy from his comatose body.
Even death can be a step to the greatest good.
28 And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints.
Oh, I'll agree with you that we sometimes try to hide our hate and anger behind some "pious" prayer. It is misused, not always, but more often than I'd like.
People plot to hurt other people, on purpose, all the time. Even "good" Christians pray for the destruction of the world. My "good" Christian mother used to pray for bad things to happen to the sinners and non-believers in our family and close circle, so that they would see the error of their ways. Sometimes (always) she thought God needed a little help and did some rather un-Christianly things to get her point across.
It's not unusual to hear a pastor call for a prayer for God show someone the error of their ways, hoping for ill to befall the sinner.
[The last person, to my knowledge, to say no to Gabriel was Lilith, and look what happened to her!]
This is very interesting. I haven't been able to find Lilith mentioned in the few translations of the Bible I've looked at, let alone talking to anybody. Where should I look for this?
We know where Lilith came from and why she is part of Abrahamic beliefs. So why did Lilith, arguably one of the most interesting characters of the Bible, vanish within relatively recent history from Bible translations and the practice of Christianity?
www.thethinkingatheist.com...
According to Jewish mythology, Lilith was Adam’s wife before Eve. Over the centuries she also became known as a succubus demon who copulated with men during their sleep and strangled newborn babies. In recent years the feminist movement has reclaimed her character by re-interpreting the patriarchal texts that portray her as a dangerous female demon in a more positive light.
judaism.about.com...
Isaiah 34:14 “Wildcats shall meet with hyenas, goat-demons shall call to each other; there too Lilith shall repose, and find a place to rest.”
Zohar 3:19 “Come and see: There is a female, a spirit of all spirits, and her name is Lilith...”
Zohar (19b) “She wanders about at night, vexing the sons of men and causing them to defile themselves...”
Ben Sira 23a-b “Adam and Lilith began to fight. She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while am to be in the superior one.' Lilith responded, 'We are equal to each other as we were both created from the earth.'”
The Talmud (Niddah 24b) Rab Judah citing Samuel ruled: If an abortion had the likeness of Lilith its mother is unclean by reason of the birth, for it is a child but it has wings.
The Talmud (Shabbath 151b) R. Hanina said: One may not sleep in a house alone [in a lonely house], and whoever sleeps in a house alone is seized by Lilith.
Dead Sea Scrolls, Songs of Sage (4Q510-511) And I, the Instructor, proclaim His glorious splendour so as to frighten and to terrify all the spirits of the destroying angels, spirits of the bastards, demons, Lilith, howlers, and desert dwellers… and those which fall upon men without warning to lead them astray from a spirit of understanding and to make their heart and their […] desolate during the present dominion of wickedness and predetermined time of humiliations for the sons of light, by the guilt of the ages of those smitten by iniquity – not for eternal destruction, but for an era of humiliation for transgression.
The offspring of this Lilith fill the world. A transmuted version of this legend appears in the Alphabet of Ben Sira, a Midrash of the geonic period, which sets out to explain the already widespread custom of writing amulets against Lilith.
Here she is identified with the "first Eve," who was created from the earth at the same time as Adam, and who, unwilling to forgo her equality, disputed with him the manner of their intercourse. Pronouncing the Ineffable Name, she flew off into the air. On Adam's request, the Almighty sent after her the three angels Snwy, Snsnwy, and Smnglf; finding her in the Red Sea, the angels threatened that if she did not return, 100 of her sons would die every day. She refused, claiming that she was expressly created to harm newborn infants. However, she had to swear that whenever she saw the image of those angels in an amulet, she would lose her power over the infant. Here the legend concerning the wife of Adam who preceded the creation of Eve (Gen. 2) merges with the earlier legend of Lilith as a demon who kills infants and endangers women in childbirth.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
Wow! "Pre-programmed?" No free will? Jesus should have written a screenplay "My Mother, the Robot." I don't recall the words I used, but Mary wasn't programmed to do certain things. She was saved from ever being scarred by Original Sin.
I can't come up with a good reason to believe that of everyone who ever lived, only one person had their life controlled from start to finish, and that one was Mary, Jesus' mother who suffered watching her child die on the Cross.
Bob and Tom are fighting with each other, Jesus walks up and asks "Wazzup?" Bob explains that Tom stole his donkey. Jesus says to them, "Chill. Tom, I forgive you." Bob has to wonder where Jesus gets off forgiving Tom. Bob knows that he has been hurt by Tom's action, and Bob's not in a forgiving mood. He also knows that God's law was broken, but only God can forgive an offense against God.
If you believe that Jesus forgave sins, and that Jesus wasn't a crazed lunatic, you're stuck with calling Jesus God.
But, dear windword, we don't disagree. A soul going to God is a good and holy thing, but death is not.
If death, in itself, was a good thing then we would have the duty of killing everyone we could and war would be celebrated and praised.
Further, remember "This day thou shalt be with Me in Paradise?" Jesus didn't ascend to Heaven for forty three days. His first stop was Hell (or Sheol). It's not unreasonable to think the thief was with Him there.
Oh, I'll agree with you that we sometimes try to hide our hate and anger behind some "pious" prayer.
The idea is that, no matter how painful heart surgery is, it provides hope for the patient to reform and reclaim his life after everything else has been tried.
But he was subject to the human condition. He had temtpations, physical and emotional suffering, poverty, abuse, and death. Besides, one of the many puzzles is what He experienced in the decades before His ministry.
How can we see Jesus as fully human if he wasn't subject to the human condition?
All right, you've picked door number 2, Jesus is a bad man. But if nothing else, He is portrayed in the Bible as a good man. The only impression we can get from the Bible is that He was good and just in His work here. Even you have said something to the effect of "Ditch the Pauline letters, listen to Jesus." But why would you want to listen to a bad man, an unjust man?
In this case Jesus is unjust.
The list of people talking about forgiveness is lengthy, and accepted as a good teaching. Jesus isn't seen as God because of His good teachings, dozens of philosophers and leaders have said much the same thing. He wasn't adding much that was really new.
Jesus' teachings of forgiveness doesn't make him God in my eyes. Buddha also taught forgiveness. That never gave Buddha "God" status, so why Jesus?
No, not absolute proof of anything, but interesting.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
charles1952
reply to post by Akragon
Dear Akragon,
I would give a nickel (I'm a little tight this month) to listen to a discussion between you and windword. You're one of the reasons I like ATS. Thank you for keeping me from getting too sloppy or complacent.
Let me add a little to 1 Samuel 2, just to make your case stronger (it's Verse 1):
“My heart rejoices in the Lord;
in the Lord my horn is lifted high.
My mouth boasts over my enemies,
for I delight in your deliverance.
We know we're not supposed to boast over our enemies, yet this is written. What's going on?
I'm not a Biblical scholar, so I can only offer an opinion. In a way it seems like dodging your question; I attempt it only because you've been so patient in the past. (And don't forget, I remember your secret nickname.)
The Old Testament is full of battles and slaughter and such, but for sheer, gleeful, anticipation of a blood-curdling revenge, I don't think you can do much better than David in some of the Psalms. Here are some verses from the first ten Psalms:
Arise, Lord!
Deliver me, my God!
Strike all my enemies on the jaw;
break the teeth of the wicked.
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.
For you have upheld my right and my cause,
sitting enthroned as the righteous judge.
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Endless ruin has overtaken my enemies,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.
Strike them with terror, Lord;
let the nations know they are only mortal.
Break the arm of the wicked man;
call the evildoer to account for his wickedness
that would not otherwise be found out.
The Psalms can be seen as David's prayers, just as the 1 Samuel verses are Hannah's prayers. I'm not sure, but I think these are reflections of the people, their society, and how they saw God.
There were deprivations, attacks by enemies, foreign religions, slavery, all sorts of tragedy. I wonder, and remember I'm guessing, if the Hebrews didn't see God as Robocop. A powerful being dispensing justice by death and punishment of the Hebrew's enemies.
I believe they were expecting the Messiah to be a great worldly leader, a King over the earth to exalt the Hebrews and cast down their enemies. Jesus said they got that wrong, and perhaps their Old Testament prayers had God's plan wrong also.
Of course I could be completely off, but the joy in talking to you comes from new thinking and ideas. Thanks.
With respect,
Charles1952
Jesus was described as the "New Adam." Having Mary as the "New Eve," both created sinless, seems fitting.
Mary was the dwelling place of God for nine months. One would want God's "container" or "home" to be spotless, free of sin or taint.
By breaking the chain of original sin which was passed from generation to generation, Jesus could be born without it. If He had original sin, we would have the situation where God was a sinner, and a sinner against Himself.
But he was subject to the human condition. He had temtpations, physical and emotional suffering, poverty, abuse, and death. Besides, one of the many puzzles is what He experienced in the decades before His ministry.
You're right that death can be the gateway to a soul reuniting with God. Unfortunately, that's not the soul's only possible destination.
Adam's sin made it necessary for God to redeem the world through His Son.
Having Jesus on earth was a great and glorious good thing. Must we say then that Adam's sin was good? We would then be forced to say that bad is good. I can't follow you there.
When Tom stole Bob's donkey, you're right that he committed a crime against Bob. But he also violated "Thou shalt not steal," a sin against God. Tom has to make things right with Bob, but he also has to make things right with God. Jesus is saying, basically, I've made it all right. Which Jesus could only say if He was nuts, a bad person, or God.
All right, you've picked door number 2, Jesus is a bad man.
In this case Jesus is unjust.
What was new, and one of the reasons He is known as God is His simple message and acts. "I've come to tell you that you have to face up to your sins, give them up, turn to Me to find forgiveness and the path to God. To show you this is possible and true, I will defeat death and sin by My death, Resurrection, and return to Heaven. And if you need more, I will perform miracles, healing people, forgiving their sins, returning the dead to life, and feeding the hungry. All the things that the prophecies said I would do." (My paraphrase)
Jesus died the same day He told the thief that that day he would be with Him in Paradise. Ok, I understand that you don't like Paul. But John? John wrote in the first chapter of his revelation:
No, not absolute proof of anything, but interesting.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
On Paul, it may not be appropriate for this thread, but your reasons for disliking him seem to be a little thin.
Oh, and speaking of Song of Solomon, that's one lesson that you will not find in the gospels, a teaching of Mother Earth and her beauty and importance within heaven. Not saying Jesus didn't teach that, I'm sure he did, but for whatever reason (greed) it was left out of the gospels.
In my opinion Jesus taught the spiritual lesson of a good life and the way to avoid the wheel of karma, in order to be born again, a free person.
I don't believe in the miracles or the resurrection.
Nope, don't like Revelations, either, not as proof of Jesus' divinity.
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
I'm ashamed to admit it, but it seems I've been making assumptions that are wildly faulty. I can't walk with you if we start in a different place, and as I do want to walk with you, I need more understanding.
I can't see how Jesus was a good spiritual teacher, if He said things that were easily misunderstood, or false, or impossible.
The only way to deal with this that I can see, is to take the position that everything in the Bible is false.