Did Abraham ever really exist?

reply to post by mekhanics

Did Abraham ever really exist?

ASK : Zecharia Sitchin

Zecharia Sitchin was a FRAUD and a puppet for the elite.

His work has been shown by many to be fraudulent and a complete fabrication.

Independent researchers Michael Heiser, PhD and Jonathan Grey also found Mr. Sitchin's translations and story of the planet Nibiru to be fraudulent and a fabrication. Even more damning is that the "Ancient Sumerian Texts" that Zecharia says support all of his claims DON'T EVEN EXIST!!!"

Sitchin was an intelligence operative for the Global Elite

reply to post by FlyersFan


I'm still curious as why you say a place called Dan did not exist.

When EA#151 says that it did.

J.

reply to post by Murgatroid


Ofcourse he's a fraud. This thread is all about his work.

Text
Surely, Moses, if he existed, knew of writing, because the Egyptians had writing and papyrus scrolls. But there is no evidence that the Hebrews had a unique and written language and alphabet until about 1000 BC.

reply to post by windword


@ windword

@ windword

Moses was reared as a strategist in the Egyptian house of Pharaoh and you must remember that the Egyptians used Pictographic expressions and not the linear alphabet.

Ancient Hebrew is the oldest form of writing known to exist. It is dated as between 3500 to 6000 and was also Pictographic expressions. All languages are known to derive from Ancient Hebrew. Ancient Hebrew was used till about the era of King David and Solomon which was about 800 BCE when it was changed into the linear alphabet of Paleo Hebrew.

It was in this era that the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians. The Hebrews took the Paleo alphabet with them into captivity and their scribes changed the Paleo Hebrew alphabet into the Elephantine Aramaic alphabet. That is the sister alphabet to the Paleo alphabet but both are understood as belonging to the mother alphabet of Ancient Hebrew.

The Jews claim that Moses wrote Torah in about 1313 BCE which was in the era of change from Ancient Hebrew to Paleo Hebrew. No one can set dates on all of this as yet but one possibility is that Moses could have used either Ancient Hebrew or Paleo Hebrew and perhaps both. No one really knows but one thing is clear and that is that both Paleo Hebrew and Elephantine Aramaic came from Ancient Hebrew and all three are understood by scribes of their eras.

Getting back to Moses and his Torah. If Moses used Ancient Hebrew and put it in a book and placed it in the Ark of the Covenant (such as Deuteronomy states) then that book would have been easily read by the scribes of the era of King David. The same would apply to the days of Jesus. The scribes were well versed in Ancient and Paleo Hebrew even thought the populace was not. We know that Paleo Hebrew and Elephantine Aramaic was the liturgy of the Christian Jerusalem Church but the average Hellenist Greek was not educated in the Hebrew even though Greek originated from Hebrew. The average Hebrew in Jesus’ era was educated as Greeks were educated and had lost their heritage.

You would be correct if you had said that the Paleo Hebrew alphabet came into usage about 1000 BCE but not that the Hebrew Alphabet came into usage at about 1000 BCE. That is why the great study is being conducted even today. The completed transition period from pictures to linear is not known and that is why no one truly knows which alphabet Moses uses. Realizing that Moses was very familuar with the Egyptian Pictograph Alphabet would not surprise me if it were discovered that the Torah was written in Ancient Pictographic Hebrew.

Now some where down the line of history tells us that our Hebrew today has been the product of Ancient Hebrew to Paleo Hebrew to Elephantine Aramaic and even corrupted into Yiddish Hebrew. But one thing is very clear and that is that historians do certify that Moses did exist and that the literature of Torah was penned by him in 1313 BCE and believed to be in Paleo Hebrew.

reply to post by Seede

Ancient Hebrew is the oldest form of writing known to exist. It is dated as between 3500 to 6000 and was also Pictographic expressions.

Do have a link for this claim. All my research indicates that the oldest (ancient Hebrew) writings EVER found date to around 1000 BC. I find nothing that cites an older age for ancient Hebrew.

But one thing is very clear and that is that historians do certify that Moses did exist and that the literature of Torah was penned by him in 1313 BCE and believed to be in Paleo Hebrew.

There is no conclusive evidence that the biblical character of Moses actually existed, and no historian can certify that he did. The narrative of Moses, the Ark of the Covenant and the Torah scrolls wasn't written down until many hundreds of years later.

If Moses, if he did exist, did write something down, I highly doubt that he would have written down that he wrote something down and placed it in the Ark. I highly doubt that he would have written his own biography into the Torah, as if his story was equal to or more important that the law that he claimed God himself had personally given him. I just doesn't make sense.

The narrative is obviously told from a 3rd person perspective. The Jewish scholars, that I find credible, all say that the Hebrew alphabet itself tells a story, and the alphabetical combinations of the Torah has a different and more spiritually esoteric meaning that the epic heroic stories being told.

The Torah has been compared to a woven Navajo rug. When you look at the rug from a distance there is a picture, and perhaps a story. But only when you look closely can you see the science of the weave and the marvelous employment of art in which the patterns are made.

reply to post by Seede

Ancient Hebrew is the oldest form of writing known to exist.

No it's not. The Sumerian language is the earliest known written language.

FlyersFan
So for 1500 years, people told and retold stories. Exactly how accurate do you think those stories could possibly be? There are proven problems with the Abraham stories.
DAN didn't exist. Yet the Abraham story states very clearly that Abraham went to DAN.
And in the Qu'ran, the Abraham story includes caravans with camels and trade routes.
NO SUCH THING existed in Abrahams time.

The only proven problems I see here is that religion ALWAYS lies.

The mystery is WHY do so many choose to believe the mind control AKA "religion" which ALWAYS lies, instead of believing God, who NEVER lies.

You are believing EXACTLY what the elite's (dis)information is telling you to believe.

All of us have been inundated our entire lives with propaganda telling us that the Bible is a fairy tale.

The ultimate goal of the Illuminati is to to keep the truth as far away from you and me as is possible...

THIS is why they teach that Jesus is a myth...

There are proven problems with the Qu'ran stories.

WHY do you choose to believe what religion is telling you?

The laws of probability have PROVEN that the Bible is a construction of God while at the same time there is absolutely NO evidence that God wrote the Qu'ran.

"Perhaps the most compelling of evidences demonstrating that the Bible is the word of God is its unswerving ability to accurately predict future events, often in minute details. Specific prophesies are conspicuously absent from the 26 other religious books that claim to be scripture, including the Muslim's Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Hindu Vedas, and Buddhist writings. This in itself should be a major eye-opener to the honest skeptic. " Accuracy Of Prophecy

Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students.

After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10^17.

Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ

Another attestation to the Bible’s divine authorship is the vast number of detailed biblical prophecies that have come true exactly as foretold. We see the psalmist, for example, telling of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ nearly a thousand years before it occurred (Psalm 22), and hundreds of years before crucifixion was even invented! Simply put, it would be impossible for human beings to have seen so far into the future with such precision and accuracy hundreds of times. Indeed, it would be completely illogical to believe these proven prophecies are anything other than the work of God. Incidentally, and amazingly, probability experts tell us the mathematical odds of just forty-eight prophecies regarding one person (i.e. Christ) coming true as foretold are one in ten to the 157th power!

Is the Bible a fairy tale?

reply to post by Seede

Ancient Hebrew is the oldest form of writing known to exist.

Chinese is older.

Much of Hebrew is based on older systems.

History may have been written to reflect modern petty jealousy.

Read the book 'Yellow River', ~by i.p. daily

NewAgeMan
reply to post by gymbeau2000

 

As a rationally and logically minded scientist, who presumably is capable of investigating free from any sort of contempt, prior to investigation ie: with an open mind - do you think it could be possible that the greatest revelation or epiphany the world has ever known (in time and history), could simply fly right over your own head or under your own "radar"..?

edit on 27-9-2013 by NewAgeMan because: edit - space added.

What greatest revelation the world has ever seen? You mean the pushing of myth and folklore to be a control measure for the rich and powerful? There MAY have been a Jesus and there is a lesser chance there was ever an Abraham and Moses...Noah and the list goes on. But if a character like Jesus was real and as influential as claimed, there would be concise records of him in other cultures while alive - not 300+ years later. The old testament characters - mostly fiction. The most definitely were not as described in the Bible. You have to remember the Bible as we know it is a creation of the early 1600's.

Occam's Razor, people...remember it.

reply to post by gymbeau2000

Ah I figured you might have given some open-minded consideration to some info I'd posted earlier in the thread.. oh well.

I honor your right to hold your own opinion, just please don't call it scientifically minded when there's contempt, prior to investigation and an unwillingness to consider new data and information when it's presented.

reply to post by gymbeau2000

if a character like Jesus was real and as influential as claimed, there would be concise records of him in other cultures while alive

FACT: "History" HAS been erased and tampered with.

The best way to silence someone is to lie about them.

History is a VERY effective form of mind control.

"The falsification of history has done more to impede human development than any one thing known to mankind" - Rousseau

“the biggest cover-up in the history of mankind is the history of mankind itself”

“There are two histories: official history, lying, and then secret history, where you find the real causes of events.” ~ Honoré de Balzac

The Illuminati realized they had to deceive an entire population of people if they had any hope whatsoever of achieving their coveted New World Order. As early as 1911, the Illuminati began buying textbook writing companies, until they owned them all after World War I. Once they got control of textbooks, they gradually began to "dumb down" the curricula and rewrite history. Rewriting history was the first step in achieving the New World Order. Source

An unperson is a person who has been "vaporized"; who has been not only killed by the state, but effectively erased from existence. Such a person would be written out of existing books, photographs, and articles so that no trace of their existence could be found in the historical record. The idea is that such a person would, according to the principles of doublethink, be forgotten completely (for it would be impossible to provide evidence of their existence), even by close friends and family members.

Making the Historical truth Disappear:

reply to post by gymbeau2000

What greatest revelation the world has ever seen? You mean the pushing of myth and folklore to be a control measure for the rich and powerful?

You've got truth and religion confused.

Forget EVERYTHING you've been told.

Your "education" is blinding you to reality.

You talk about religion, which has NOTHING to do with truth.

Everything you THINK you know is a lie.

You have to remember the Bible as we know it is a creation of the early 1600's.

Your argument FAILS because it is based on propaganda and disinformation.

Do you realize the absolute sheer IRONY of this?

Instead of trusting God, you are placing your trust in organizations attempting to influence the public's perception through controlled disinformation.

Manuscript evidence for the New Testament is remarkable, far surpassing that which exists for any other ancient book. And those who work with these ancient copies (called "textual critics") are convinced that they have been able to recover a Greek New Testament which is virtually identical to the original.

This evidence does not prove that the Bible is the word of God. But it does demonstrate conclusively that the Bible you have is the same which was first written by its authors. When Teabing (the Da Vinci Code's "historian") asserts, "History has never had a definitive version of the book" and claims that scholars cannot confirm the authenticity of the Bible, he's simply wrong.

Is the Bible true?

Seede
Ancient Hebrew is the oldest form of writing known to exist. It is dated as between 3500 to 6000 and was also Pictographic expressions. All languages are known to derive from Ancient Hebrew. Ancient Hebrew was used till about the era of King David and Solomon which was about 800 BCE when it was changed into the linear alphabet of Paleo Hebrew.

What kind of history book do you read? Torah?

Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Akkadian and about 10 other languages including old Greek before first written text in Hebrew.

Text
What kind of history book do you read? Torah?

Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Akkadian and about 10 other languages including old Greek before first written text in Hebrew.

reply to post by SuperFrog



What kind of history book do you read? Torah?

Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Akkadian and about 10 other languages including old Greek before first written text in Hebrew.
What kind of history book do you read? Torah?

@ SuperFrog

Yes. That is my answer.

There are many sources which claim their own spins in the linguistic field but my source is F. W. Albright (1891-1971). The reason I chose Albright as a teacher was because he had mastered 26 languages and was the leading world linguist. In fact he was the first to have translated dead sea scrolls and published his work long before the other biblical scholars had even started their work. His credentials are overwhelming in the science field of biblical archaeology, biblical scholarship, philologist, (linguist of literature) and a ceramics professor as well. How many other men or women do you record as having mastered 26 languages?

If you are interested in F.W. Albright’s work then by all means you are choosing the world’s best (in my opinion). I have noted that the OP of this thread has chosen to secularize almost all verification with absolutely no source of verification. That is your and his prerogative and I am not interested in trying to change your minds. You may believe whatsoever you may wish to believe but I believe that you are mistaken in your secularist opinions.

This entire subject is biblical and naturally it all hinges upon what you want to believe. You cannot have it both ways. If you believe that theologically Abraham actually lived and died then it is just that. It would theology. Once you prove theology then it ceases to be theology and must be moved into the light of facts. Actually this entire subject matter was based upon the bible was it not? If you admit that it was based upon theology then let's discuss it in a theological dialogue.

If I choose to believe that Adam actually existed as the seed of my existence, then I also choose to believe that Adam was perfect as the bible tells me. If Adam walked and talked in the Gan Eden and named all living creatures (at that time) then I choose to believe that this was the first language given to my creation. The Hebrews are the only original culture that accepted this rendition of our existence and with that claim it has been the understanding of most devout Christians that Hebrew or the language of Adam was the very first to exist.

It was not till the age of Nimrod and the tower of Babel that the languages came into existence. Till that time all people were of the same language (that is theologically speaking). Can I prove all of this? No I cannot prove all of what I said and believe. The reason I took this avenue is to show you that Abraham was the son of Terah who in turn was second in command under King Nimrod. Nimrod being the first king of men, since the creation of Adam, and was the builder of many cities as well as the Tower of Babel.

The Jewish Time Line Encyclopedia tells me that the construction of the Tower of Babel was completed 1996 years after Adam was created. That would be 1,765 years BCE. That leaves 1,765 years for languages to be recognized in this forum. Torah is claimed to have been written in the language of Adam (Hebrew) in 1313 BCE. and the book of Deuteronomy claims to have been written in 1400 BCE. By this I am led to believe that Moses did write the book in 1400 BCE and that would leave a window of 365 to 452 unaccountable years for Hebrew to develop up to the day of Jesus’ birth. It seems unrealistic to quote secularists or atheists in theology and that is what this forum is doing. Argue either theology or facts but the two cannot be mixed in a comprehensive dialogue. Abraham is theology and to ask anyone to prove his existence is foolhardy to say the least. To be fair we must use theology to prove theological arguments within theology. Theologically, all languages were developed in 1765 years up to CE.

Now to ask you a question. How can you state factual dates with a theological subject? In other words you and other critics claim your dates of developments of languages upon the other secular and atheistic linguists who reject their very own colleagues qualifications. A good example is F.W. Albright who had mastered 26 languages among many other sciences. And yet an amature will scoff at this man's qualifications and cite a lesser intelligent linguist? I find that laughable and insulting to a brilliant man who has never been equaled in this respect.

.

reply to post by Seede


You are more than welcome to base your beliefs on 80 year old outdated and questionable archaeology if you so choose, but Albright really isn't all that and a bag of chips as they say. This is the difference between science and theology. In theology the status quo is maintained at all costs whereas in science even the naysayers get their day in court.

In the years since his death, Albright's methods and conclusions have been increasingly questioned. Fellow Biblical archaeologist William Dever notes that "[Albright's] central theses have all been overturned, partly by further advances in Biblical criticism, but mostly by the continuing archaeological research of younger Americans and Israelis to whom he himself gave encouragement and momentum ... The irony is that, in the long run, it will have been the newer "secular" archaeology that contributed the most to Biblical studies, not "Biblical archaeology."[13]

Thompson, Thomas L. (1 November 2002). The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives: The Quest for the Historical Abraham. Continuum International Publishing Group. ISBN 978-1-56338-389-2.

Thompson, Thomas L. (1979). The settlement of Palestine in the Bronze Age. Reichert. ISBN 978-3-88226-069-4

Dever, William G. (2003), Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come from?, Eerdmans ISBN 0-8028-0975-8

Dever, William G. (2003), Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come from?, Eerdmans ISBN 0-8028-0975-8

Text
You are more than welcome to base your beliefs on 80 year old outdated and questionable archaeology if you so choose, but Albright really isn't all that and a bag of chips as they say. This is the difference between science and theology. In theology the status quo is maintained at all costs whereas in science even the naysayers get their day in court.

reply to post by peter vlar


@ peter vlar

You have just said exactly what my point was with the exception that you did not address the fact that Albright was more than an archaeologist. He was a great scholar who mastered over 26 languages. Can you or any of your colleagues attest to any of your modernists who have these credentials? I hardly think so. Would you care to explain where Albright is "not all that bag of chips"? You seem to infer that you are qualified to judge this matter and in judging the matter you must be beyond a a lay man and well into a certified scholar of some sort.

Archaeology is a science and being a science it is just as acceptable to change as any other science. A biologist can improve his model or shelve his model and after his day in the sun he is put to pasture the same as any scientist. The day will come when you will also be put on a shelf. Lets hope that you have contributed a whit of what Albright has contributed.

The subject of this thread has been diverted into a path of nonsensical bible bashing and that is sad. Albright was a biblical archaeologist as well as a biblical scholar but his love for language is unsurpassed. I cannot imagine the knowledge this man had to master the worlds most famed 26 languages and to be noted world wide for his linguistic knowledge.

" By the end of his third year he spent 18 hours a day for three days at Prof. Haupt’s home in Baltimore writing terrifying exams for the Thayer Fellowship on Syriac, Arabic, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, French, and German; Hebrew Bible Literature and Criticism; geography; archaeology; history; and epigraphy. By the summer of 1916 Albright passed his oral exam and was awarded the Ph.D. for his dissertation on “The Assyrian Deluge Epic” (1916)."

"From 1912 to 1926 Albright published 35 original articles on Mesopotamian chronology, philology, history, literature, and religion. As pointed out by P. Beaulieu (Beaulieu, 2002), Albright left Assyriology after embarking on his landmark archaeological excavations at Tell Beit Mirsim, which directly influenced his choice to devote his career to the archaeology of Palestine.hoice to devote his career to the archaeology of Palestine."

CHRONOLOGY

1891 Birth, May 24, Coquimbo, Chile (U.S. citizen)
1912 B.A., Upper Iowa University
1916 Ph.D., Oriental Seminary, Johns Hopkins University
1918 Military service in the U.S. Army
1919 Thayer fellow, American School of Oriental Research
1920-1929 Director, American School of Oriental Research,
Jerusalem
1921 Marries Ruth Norton, August 3
1922 Director, excavations at Tell el-Ful, Palestine Mandate
1926-1932 Director, excavations at Tell Beit Mirsim, four seasons,
Palestine Mandate
1929-1958 W. W. Spence Professor of Oriental Languages, Johns
Hopkins University
1930-1968 Editor, Bulletin of the American School of Oriental Research
1932-1935 Director, semiannual basis, American School of
Oriental Research, Jerusalem
1937 Publishes study of Nash Papyrus establishing basis for authenticating Dead Sea Scrolls
1946 Visiting professor, University of Chicago
1947-1948 Authenticates the Dead Sea Scrolls
1947-1948 University of California African Expedition to Sinai
Peninsula with Wendell Phillips
1949-1950 Expedition to Saudi Arabia with Wendell Phillips
1955 Elected to the National Academy of Sciences
1956 Establishes the Anchor Bible commentary series with D. N. Freedman
1958 Retires from Johns Hopkins University
1969 Ya’qir Yerushalyim (“notable of Jerusalem”) by the President of Israel
1971 Death, September 19, Baltimore, Maryland

selected awards and Honors
1936 Honorary Th.D., Utrecht University
1946 Honorary Th.D., University of Oslo
1949 Honorary L.H.D, St. Andrews University
1951 Honorary Litt.D., Yale University
1952 Honorary Litt.D., Harvard University
Honorary L.H.D., Wayne State University
Honorary L.H.D., Manhattan College
1956 Fellow, American Academy of Arts and Sciences
1957 Honorary Th.D., University of Uppsala
Honorary D. Phil., Harvard University
1964 Honorary LL .D., Johns Hopkins University
1967 Gold Medal for Distinguished Archaeological Achievement,
Archaeological Institute of America
Award for Distinguished Scholarship in the Humanities,
American Council of Learned Societies

American Oriental Society (president, 1935)
American Philosophical Society (vice president 1956-1959)
American School of Oriental Research International Organization of Old Testament Scholars (president, 1956-1957)
Palestine Exploration Society (president, 1921-1922, 1934 -1935)
Society of Biblical Literature (president, 1939)

I would be interested in seeing your modernists credentials. Just an 80 year old has been hu? In your wildest dreams.

First of all, he was not archeologist but biblical archeologist.

First one finds something and places that in history books, while second one uses bible to try to classify his findings. No wonder in his delusional world everything started from Hebrew, just like his Bible... where all historical facts show us that that was not case...

As I have already said, Hebrew writing came not even on top 10, and far from being origin for other languages...

But in world of Albright and his 'book' it was origin...

TextFirst of all, he was not archeologist but biblical archeologist.

reply to post by SuperFrog


@ SuperFrog

You have no idea what you are talking about and your blog shows me your level of understanding. A Biblical Archaeologist simply (in lay man terms) defines the field of expertise such as an Egyptologist defines the field of expertise in that field. To become a Biblical Archaeologist would take about eight to ten years of university study and then you start your dissertations in your field. Most students would find this very taxing mentally as well as physically. Then you add the studying which it took for professor Albright to master his linguistic field as well as his ceramic expertise and that would take an average man or woman a life time of university work.

There are secular universities who offer biblical archaeological courses as well as Christian schools but the secular universities most generally teach from the atheist viewpoint. I would hope that you look further into this matter before you spiel untrue opinions of this science. You simply have no idea of the brilliant minds in all forms of science. Take another look at what I posted on Professor Albright's accomplishments and then use a fair educated opinion of an exceptional man. You will not find many men or women who could hold his candle. An argument is not even considered as to his brilliance.

You have to decide are you use ad hominem or just continue to rise professor Albright until he gets promoted into saints...

William Dever: From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.

*source

Albright's resume has nothing with him being right or wrong... Even greatest mind of all, Albert Einstein had his fails and took him while to get it right...

Using something already proven as false only because you like source/author... and because it fulfills all your wishes... no, that is not science...

And yes, we even had religion curses on business college... but no pseudo science making claims that historically are proven wrong...

reply to post by Seede


Science doesn't set out to prove a story. Science observes.

Albright used this influence to advocate "biblical archaeology", in which the archaeologist's task is seen as being "to illuminate, to understand, and, in their greatest excesses, to "prove" the bible.".[12] In this Albright's American Evangelical upbringing was clearly apparent. He insisted, for example, that "as a whole, the picture in Genesis is historical, and there is no reason to doubt the general accuracy of the biographical details" en.wikipedia.org...

Science has debunked the idea that mankind derived from one man and his woman. Adam and Eve never existed. Albright was delusional and driven to prove that the Bible and it's stories are true. His work is biased and isn't accepted by main stream archaeologists, who have proven that ancient Hebrew is NOT the oldest written language.