Did Abraham ever really exist?

reply to post by NewAgeMan

“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.

John 5:31

Buddha, famously, said something similar.

It still seems like an origami work of astrotheology, where the myth revolves around the stars, rather than the stars obeying the will of the gods, but I'll watch the documentary because I enjoy learning all I can about astrotheology.

NewAgeMan
reply to post by BobAthome

 

What is that pic supposed to mean, can you clarify a little more, thanks. NAM

Oh I get it, an illustration of the woman laughing with full self expression and the bully looking on - that's FUNNY! LOL

Thanks. You "grok".

That "lady" a'int laughing.......and that man in the background isn't a bully! LOL



I don't know what it has to do with this thread though!

godlover25
reply to post by Wolfenz

 

It's also been suggested Abraham was a descendent of the Horite Priestly class -

jandyongenesis.blogspot.com...

Correct !!

As a newby I will only say I am a bit shocked to see that this seems to be just another DIF when it comes to spaming on the lowest level. Sad and disappointing.

Text
Moses didn't write the Torah. As is stated in Deuteronomy 32, Moses sang. In other words, what Moses taught wasn't written down, but was passed down through oral tradition. The first examples of the written Hebrew language don't appear until around 1000 BC. That's a lot of oral history to write!

reply to post by windword


@ windword

There is much controversy as to the author or authors of Deuteronomy but regardless of who authored the literature it is generally accepted as being written in 1400 BCE. In reading Deuteronomy 31:24-26 you can realize that Torah was written as the author describes and was placed in the Ark of the Covenant. How long before is another argument but in the theological realm of facts, it stands to reason that at least you must give credence to Deut. 31:24-26.

Deut. 31:24-26
24 - And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25 - That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
26 - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

I stated that according to the Jewish Timeline Encyclopedia, Moses wrote Torah in 1,313 BCE while most biblical scholars will agree on 1,400 BCE so to add insult to injury that would add another 87 years of which I was conservative. Now reason would tell you that if Deuteronomy was written about 1,400 BCE then Torah was written before that date of 1,400 BCE. Re read Deuteronomy 31:24-26 and then rethink what you have stated. You may be confused with Tanakh and Torah but you are mistaken in saying that the Hebrew language was not in written form till about 1,000 BCE. Hebrew is the sister language of Aramaic which in turn is the sister language of Sumerian which has been in written tablets for well before 3,300 years BCE.

Also we must take into consideration that Moses may not have written his books in pure Hebrew. There are many scholars who are studying this today. In fact some books of the modern bibles are written in Aramaic which is the sister language of Hebrew. In fact the first Christian Jerusalem church's liturgy was Hebrew and much Aramaic. We do not have the original book which was placed in the Ark to make any definite statement.

reply to post by windword


Just remember that it's astrotheology performed by a certain Magus/Bodhisattva named Yeheshua or Jesus.

He was working to a SCHEDULE, by anticipation, who's first/last cause in time and history transcends the very foundation of the world.

Oh God it's just too much!

All we slaves of all colors have are fairytales of those who still successfully rule this planet by brutal bloodsheding (rituals) and money (3D power) up to this day and furtheron.

How long are we going to discuss the fairytales?

The truth is that simple and easy.

reply to post by Leontopodium


Jesus clashed with evil empire and by optimizing the downtrodden caused that empire to fall or nearly fall if it didn't adopt he himself as it's central icon.

Now that's power.

Power we could use these days, and tomorrow.

NewAgeMan
reply to post by Leontopodium

 

Jesus clashed with evil empire and by optimizing the downtrodden caused that empire to fall or nearly fall if it didn't adopt he himself as it's central icon.

Now that's power.

Power we could use these days, and tomorrow.

edit on 27-9-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

What do you think where he is right now?

This is right now and right here!
Time is an illuzion.

I try to think big and small at the same time. Hope you understand.

reply to post by Seede


Surely, Moses, if he existed, knew of writing, because the Egyptians had writing and papyrus scrolls. But there is no evidence that the Hebrews had a unique and written language and alphabet until about 1000 BC.

The Torah's uniqueness is in it's alphabet and how the letters and words reflect hand gestures and spiritual truths. Their alphabet didn't always exist, and is predated by the language of their "father" Abraham. Abraham didn't speak Hebrew and didn't know the Hebrew alphabet. Moses probably didn't speak Hebrew. The contents of the stories that the Torah convey are inferior to what the alphabet itself conveys.

dashen

Klassified
reply to post by dashen

 

Its so much better than that. Isaac was 36 years old at the time of the binding. Abraham only told his son that he was to be the sacrifice at the last moment. Isaac understood and asked to be bound because he wanted to be a perfect sacrifice. It is profoundly difficult to understand the mindset of these people. To label them as people who "heard voices" only serves to begin the dialogue in a negative tone. Besides "hearing voices" he taught the , readin', ritin', and 'rithmetic to the illiterate masses at the Dawn of Civilization. And the only reason you can read right now may just be because of him.

Can you give some references for that information? Little to none of that is in the bible. I think FF has come to the table with a lot of information here, and no one has refuted it to this point with a substantial rebuttal.

In the following verses Sarah, Isaacs mother dies of shock when she learns he is to be sacrificed. She was 127 years old upon her passing. She gave birth to Isaac at 90. Math.

Isaac understood and asked to be bound 6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”

“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

22.8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

He told him in a non shocking way as to not make Isaac lose his resolve. Abraham was 136 years old at this point, so yes a 36 year old is a lad.
edit on 24-9-2013 by dashen because: (no reason given)

I've always thought that instead of years they were using lunar cycles to measure age, but that doesn't line up. Then I did some simple number running for seasons. Maybe these numbers make more sense:

Abraham during the attempted sacrificing - 34 years old
Issac the "lad" - 9 (now that's really a lad)
Sarah died - almost 32 years old
Gave birth to Isaac - 22 1/2 years old
The before mentioned "some living to be 300ish - 75 years old
Abraham died - 43.75
Isaac died - 45
Jacob died - 36.75
Levi died - 34.25


Now some anomolies:
Methuselah - 242.25
Enoic - 91.25
Jared (Enoid's dad) 241.25

Here's the real link to this:
Noah died - 237.5
Noah died 87.5 years after the flood

What if these guys measured age on lunar cycles?
Methuselah - 80.75
Enoic - 30.4
Jared (Enoid's dad) 80.4
Noah died - 79.16
Years after the flood - 29.16

After the flood, biblical characters no long age to the claimed 1,000 years but instead to realistic numbers like Moses (125 according to the Bible, but being 31.25 according to lunar count).

Why might they measure on lunar as opposed to seasonal? Who knows. The societies were partially agricultural, so perhaps it's tied to that. Migrations of animals could have been the inspiration too. It's hard to say with the translation issues and oral tradition problems. Maybe it just changed as the accepted way of measuring, like how we developed the metric system. I think changing it from actual years to these other methods makes the information more believable. We all know people did not live as long back then, so the see people dying in their 30s and ancient people in their 70s is much more likely.

I think the "Flood" was some sort of disaster/migratory event for Noah and his family. His family started anew and in doing so created a new culture. One of the things that changed was the age counting method. Maybe because of the environmental change to where they now resided. I'm just playing a bit of Devil's advocate here to see if there are possible truths to anything. I think being totally closed minded to either side is foolish. Something caused the ancient people to believe these stories, so there is likely some grains of truth. Personally, I think the whole Bible is by and large folklore and myths. But maybe this info can help others think of this differently.

gymbeau2000

dashen

Klassified
reply to post by dashen

 

Its so much better than that. Isaac was 36 years old at the time of the binding. Abraham only told his son that he was to be the sacrifice at the last moment. Isaac understood and asked to be bound because he wanted to be a perfect sacrifice. It is profoundly difficult to understand the mindset of these people. To label them as people who "heard voices" only serves to begin the dialogue in a negative tone. Besides "hearing voices" he taught the , readin', ritin', and 'rithmetic to the illiterate masses at the Dawn of Civilization. And the only reason you can read right now may just be because of him.

Can you give some references for that information? Little to none of that is in the bible. I think FF has come to the table with a lot of information here, and no one has refuted it to this point with a substantial rebuttal.

In the following verses Sarah, Isaacs mother dies of shock when she learns he is to be sacrificed. She was 127 years old upon her passing. She gave birth to Isaac at 90. Math.

Isaac understood and asked to be bound 6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”

“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

22.8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

He told him in a non shocking way as to not make Isaac lose his resolve. Abraham was 136 years old at this point, so yes a 36 year old is a lad.
edit on 24-9-2013 by dashen because: (no reason given)

I've always thought that instead of years they were using lunar cycles to measure age, but that doesn't line up. Then I did some simple number running for seasons. Maybe these numbers make more sense:

Abraham during the attempted sacrificing - 34 years old
Issac the "lad" - 9 (now that's really a lad)
Sarah died - almost 32 years old
Gave birth to Isaac - 22 1/2 years old
The before mentioned "some living to be 300ish - 75 years old
Abraham died - 43.75
Isaac died - 45
Jacob died - 36.75
Levi died - 34.25


Now some anomolies:
Methuselah - 242.25
Enoic - 91.25
Jared (Enoid's dad) 241.25

Here's the real link to this:
Noah died - 237.5
Noah died 87.5 years after the flood

What if these guys measured age on lunar cycles?
Methuselah - 80.75
Enoic - 30.4
Jared (Enoid's dad) 80.4
Noah died - 79.16
Years after the flood - 29.16

After the flood, biblical characters no long age to the claimed 1,000 years but instead to realistic numbers like Moses (125 according to the Bible, but being 31.25 according to lunar count).

Why might they measure on lunar as opposed to seasonal? Who knows. The societies were partially agricultural, so perhaps it's tied to that. Migrations of animals could have been the inspiration too. It's hard to say with the translation issues and oral tradition problems. Maybe it just changed as the accepted way of measuring, like how we developed the metric system. I think changing it from actual years to these other methods makes the information more believable. We all know people did not live as long back then, so the see people dying in their 30s and ancient people in their 70s is much more likely.

I think the "Flood" was some sort of disaster/migratory event for Noah and his family. His family started anew and in doing so created a new culture. One of the things that changed was the age counting method. Maybe because of the environmental change to where they now resided. I'm just playing a bit of Devil's advocate here to see if there are possible truths to anything. I think being totally closed minded to either side is foolish. Something caused the ancient people to believe these stories, so there is likely some grains of truth. Personally, I think the whole Bible is by and large folklore and myths. But maybe this info can help others think of this differently.

Who made you believe this?
Why did you not try to think on your own?

Very sad ...


Quote: "Personally, I think the whole Bible is by and large folklore and myths."

It's worse, it's slavedriverlore and the slaves believe everything they are fed.

reply to post by gymbeau2000


How are you measuring your lunar cycles? I admit that it does make much more sense to explain the age of biblical characters that way.

Perhaps they considered 7 lunar "jubilees" to be one year. That cuts the annual age nearly in half, but still doesn't account for the age that Methuselah was supposed to have been.

Leontopodium

NewAgeMan
reply to post by Leontopodium

 

Jesus clashed with evil empire and by optimizing the downtrodden caused that empire to fall or nearly fall if it didn't adopt he himself as it's central icon.

Now that's power.

Power we could use these days, and tomorrow.

What do you think where he is right now?

This is right now and right here!
Time is an illuzion.

I try to think big and small at the same time. Hope you understand.

I have no reason to think that Jesus isn't alive in more ways than one, "sitting" at the right hand of the throne of all creation and resident in some sort of eternal domain/abode of light as a one-time-only Bodhisattva (one incarnation only) interceding for us in sympathetic understanding, the implication of which it's even MORE powerful by many orders of magnitude than we might have previously realized or even considered.

He also lives in us with us in him as the best part of what it means to be a human being. He is alive in me and is the very best part of who and what I really am, as love.

Best Regards, and God Bless..

NAM

P.S. If time is an illusion as you say, then from a "passover" perspective, his Great Work or Magnum Opus might as well have occurred yesterday, or even today, and his resurrection principal is an evolutionary phenomenon and framework from life to life.

The fundamental problem we have is that of being left behind in our own ignorance, instead of reintegrated, in spite of it.

Leontopodium
Who made you believe this?
Why did you not try to think on your own?

Very sad ...

edit on 27-9-2013 by Leontopodium because: my mind never stops working

Quote: "Personally, I think the whole Bible is by and large folklore and myths."

It's worse, it's slavedriverlore and the slaves believe everything they are fed.

edit on 27-9-2013 by Leontopodium because: (no reason given)

No one made me believe this. I was raised Catholic in a Southern Baptist heavy community. I'm now a scientist, so I think logically. I dumped the controlling forces and see through the media spin and crap shoved down societies throats.

Religion is the greatest control tool ever invented. However, I have doubts something that was 100% fiction could spread and be so closely followed. But I suppose it is possible.

windword
reply to post by gymbeau2000

 

How are you measuring your lunar cycles? I admit that it does make much more sense to explain the age of biblical characters that way.

Perhaps they considered 7 lunar "jubilees" to be one year. That cuts the annual age nearly in half, but still doesn't account for the age that Methuselah was supposed to have been.

edit on 27-9-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

I didn't plug it into actual lunar cycles. I just did simple monthly lunar math just to show a rough idea. If I wanted to be serious about it, I would be able to tell you basically his exact age. It's all really tough because even in the 20th century, we have very old people saying they are 150 years old and turns out they are 90. It's an established thing for some elderly to exaggerate their age to seem more important.

reply to post by gymbeau2000


As a rationally and logically minded scientist, who presumably is capable of investigating free from any sort of contempt, prior to investigation ie: with an open mind - do you think it could be possible that the greatest revelation or epiphany the world has ever known (in time and history), could simply fly right over your own head or under your own "radar"..?

Didn't abe circumcise a week old baby with a primitive knife of some kind (educated guess says it was a dull rusty bronze knife)? Then according to a sect of jews he sucked on the baby penis with a mouthful of wine to disinfect it. www.npr.org...

That ritual is known as a metzitzah b'peh


Npr is also known as national public radio. If he did exist he probably had to register with authorities for what he did or run from the law.

mattsawaufo
Didn't abe circumcise a week old baby with a primitive knife of some kind (educated guess says it was a dull rusty bronze knife)? Then according to a sect of jews he sucked on the baby penis with a mouthful of wine to disinfect it. www.npr.org...

That ritual is known as a metzitzah b'peh

Surely for that kind of thing they would have used a very sharp knife, don't be absurd.

windword

NewAgeMan
reply to post by BobAthome

 

What is that pic supposed to mean, can you clarify a little more, thanks. NAM

Oh I get it, an illustration of the woman laughing with full self expression and the bully looking on - that's FUNNY! LOL

Thanks. You "grok".

That "lady" a'int laughing.......and that man in the background isn't a bully! LOL

I don't know what it has to do with this thread though!

You don't?

Uhmm.. neither do i..

.. let's hope that wasn't the sound coming out of Abraham's tent the night he slept with his own daughter (it was reported that he was in a drunken stupor so bad that he was tricked into doing it and wasn't aware who it was that he was um, with).

And this after the baby penis sucking with wine post, oh dear. Sigh. What can ya do it's in the BIBLE!