Did Abraham ever really exist?

reply to post by adjensen

What are you talking about? The Jerusalem Post is a generally well respected newspaper, it's not some crazy conspiracy site.

Right.......and so is FOX News! LOL

combatmaster
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Im have thoroughly read your post and links.

I have too many words to type atm. Lets just say, after reading your post i also read replies. You should't ignore Dashen.

I too have read this thread and Dashen makes a lot of statements on the first few pages of the thread yet has failed to provide even one link for his ideas. Meanwhile, people who debate with him DO provide links to their sides of the argument.

You are drawing too many conclusions from very weak assumptions. I say weak because you have not considered other views that directly oppose yours.

How many opposing arguments exist to the idea that Abraham didn't exist? I can count one, that he did exist and the OP has been focusing on that opposing argument throughout the entire thread. Would you like to elaborate on some more?

Dashen has been speaking more sense than OP.

The guy with no proof of his position makes more sense then the person who has provided many backing sources for their stance? Ok... Well I guess I can see where you are coming from considering you said this: "I have too many words to type atm. Lets just say, after reading your post i also read replies. You should't ignore Dashen." without providing any sort of backup. You know if you are just going to post and echo your sentiments that so and so is right and then provide some cop out bs reason not to back your statements up, you might as well just not post at all. Echo chambers are lame and contrary to what religious people think, they are terrible argumentative devices.

Sorry but as a person who has studied this my whole life, I realize that you are not up to date with your info on Abraham!

No offence bro, just telling you how it is!

Sorry but as a person who is on the internet and can say whatever he damn well pleases while talking to people who can do the same, these last two sentences mean squat.

reply to post by FlyersFan


just for u
Here u go,, hope this helps,,
in response too,,,





en.wikipedia.org...




its pretty big

they found a name of a Tribe that was Conquered and who's Seed they Cut off,, that name was,,,




see it

here this might be better,,



three guess,,

for those interested,,

belonged too this guy
en.wikipedia.org...

was a floppy disk of his conquests 5 inch,,

reply to post by GafferUK1981

Archaeological evidence from the last fifty years reveals that it's not all just "fairytales".

Deny ignorance!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Then cease the pontificating and show it. If its there present it. Otherwise I fear we're in for a other diatribe on faith.

reply to post by BobAthome


I don't know what you think that this Stele proves. According to it, Israel was wiped out by 1200 BC. So, if there was an Abraham, his descendants, as the Israel cited, were obliterated. So, where did the following Jews come from?

Where is the Biblical history of their destruction or capture by this Egyptian Pharaoh in 1200BC?

reply to post by peter vlar

Places in the Bible like Nineveh as but one example, have been unearthed during the last century. There's history there and to say it's "all just fairytales" is the epitome of atheist-oriented ignorance.

NewAgeMan
reply to post by peter vlar

 

Places in the Bible like Nineveh as but one example, have been unearthed during the last century. There's history there and to say it's "all just fairytales" is the epitome of atheist-oriented ignorance.

Ok, this is getting to be a tiresome analogy but... Yes there are some historical links within biblical text. Much like Charles Dickens Great Expectations depicts some historical aspects of early to mid nineteenth century/ Victorian era London or A Tale of Two Cities depicts some historical aspects of the French Revolution. That however does not mean the Pip, Estella or Mrs. Havisham are real people though. There is a vast difference between a work being a social commentary of a specific period of time and that work being a historically accurate piece. There is a large gap existing between what we know and what the Torah and Talmud state as well as the fact that they attribute places as bring contemporary despite the claimed cities or states not existing until centuries after the fact. There really is no way to reconcile everything they get wrong with what we actually can prove via the archaeological record.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Places in the Bible like Nineveh as but one example, have been unearthed during the last century. There's history there and to say it's "all just fairytales" is the epitome of atheist-oriented ignorance.

The important details have yet to be corroborated in full. The details that have been corroborated merely allow the possibility of that which you insist is the truth.

NewAgeMan

 

Places in the Bible like Nineveh as but one example, have been unearthed during the last century. There's history there and to say it's "all just fairytales" is the epitome of atheist-oriented ignorance.

No one is telling that it is all fairytale, but because large part is, even thing like naming of places can't be taken seriously...

Please check this video:

James Randi - Archeology vs. the Bible

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Such is ancient history.

My point is that there's a there there, and that the whole thing wasn't fabricated from nothing ie: just "fairytales", it's not as simplistic as what many ill informed atheists would have people believe.

And the more that archaeology digs up the more the ancient Biblical history is corroborated, to the degree that is possible.

Oftentimes the historical backdrop was just the frame for encoded allegory, the culmination of which generated a powerful prophetic framework, while addressing various aspect of human nature like the sibling rivalry of Cain and Able for example, which is a multi-generational phenomenal of unbelievable amounts of abuse and cruelty. That's just one example.

The Bible is filled with all kinds of things, and can offer a great deal of insight.

The standard atheist attack is based in pure ignorance, nothing more.

SuperFrog

Please check this video:

James Randi - Archeology vs. the Bible

Not so simple..

en.wikipedia.org...

NewAgeMan
The Bible is filled with all kinds of things,

Exactly, I am glad we agree on that!

Like: virgin birth, creation of world in 6 days, flood that did not leave any evidence world wide in time many civilization had written records that disprove such a flood, that women are product of our rib, there to serve us, ...

NewAgeMan
and can offer a great deal of insight.

See above, I completely agree... like if we hear voices that tell us to kill our kids, we should obey as that is god given order.... or that we should stone our neighbor if he is working on Sunday, or our kids for that matter if they disobedient.... great deal of insight.... only problem is science... you know what they call in science person that hears voices that tells him to do disturbing things?

Time to grow up....

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Wait, he is giving evidence that Nazareth did not even exist in time of Jesus as village, there is no any evidence of synagogue there... and all you have said is not so easy?

Please, either give some evidence... or stop spamming the discussion...

NewAgeMan
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Such is ancient history.

My point is that there's a there there, and that the whole thing wasn't fabricated from nothing ie: just "fairytales", it's not as simplistic as what many ill informed atheists would have people believe.

And the more that archaeology digs up the more the ancient Biblical history is corroborated, to the degree that is possible.

Oftentimes the historical backdrop was just the frame for encoded allegory, the culmination of which generated a powerful prophetic framework, while addressing various aspect of human nature like the sibling rivalry of Cain and Able for example, which is a multi-generational phenomenal of unbelievable amounts of abuse and cruelty. That's just one example.

The Bible is filled with all kinds of things, and can offer a great deal of insight.

The standard atheist attack is based in pure ignorance, nothing more.

edit on 26-9-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

How nice, now we're back pedaling and blaming Atheists for the entirety of the world failing to accept the grace of our Christian overlords. Earlier in this thread the bible was chock full pertinent historical facts yet here we are on page 19 and its suddenly its only a backdrop for encoded allegory.

Tell me, what exactly is the "Standard Atheist Attack"? In my experience, most agnostics or atheists I have known came from religious homes thus I find it a difficult argument to make that the position is based on ignorance when in fact the opposite is actually true. It's an interesting paradox that everyone who fails to accept the historical accuracy of ancient texts is ignorant but its perfectly acceptable to alter the logic train and derail your own argument via alterations. In essence, if the evidence and archaeological record don't verify supernatural activities, we simply can not claim that they are true and anyone who disagrees is ignorant. By the definition of the word, the ignorant stamp would be placed elsewhere in this scenario.

In all honesty, if you need a holdover from the bronze age to tell you what is right and wrong and how to treat people, theres a lot more wrong in this picture than insisting analogous characters are the real McCoy.

SuperFrog

NewAgeMan
The Bible is filled with all kinds of things,

that women are product of our rib ,...

NewAgeMan
and can offer a great deal of insight.

Has it occurred to you that some of these things might have another, much deeper meaning and significance..?

start at 1:14 of this video, as but one example.


All indication is that it was Moses who wrote Genesis, so it's no wonder that it would contain subtle references to the sacred science of ancient Egypt.

Deny ignorance!

reply to post by Krazysh0t


You are allowed to believe what you want. But you can only ever believe. When and IF you ever achieve the knowledge i have achieved in this context, then you too will realize it is a waste of time trying to enlighten people on ATS. Even with proof and sources.

You are one of those people that will live and die and never really know the truth about Abraham specifically. So run along now...

reply to post by FlyersFan


Were you alive between 2000 and 500 BC to say anything with certainty? Do u have proof?

As they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And this entire thread is based on absence of evidence.

Maybe this is why Jesus said "before Abraham ever was, I am." It would presume though that Jesus had been to the root of Abraham, and beyond, to state this as a personal experience.

Which is why I suggested much earlier in this thread before all the fuss and frackus started, that Jesus, during the "lost years" (from pre-pubescent puberty to about the age of 30 or at least 20 years) might very well have traveled the trade routes and traced his origins and lineage, while becoming a Brahma or a Magus (or both) learning the wisdom of the ages from every perspective at Alexandria in Egypt including Greek thought (and the art of debate), raised and taught by Magi from Babylonia (with Persian influences ie: astrological and cosmological sacred sciences), travelled the Indus River Valley and accumulated the sum total of Taoist/Buddhist and Hindu thought from which mystical Judaism sprang, in antiquity.

Abraham, if there ever was one in particular, being of the Chaldean not tribe or clan, but Priestly class, who migrated from the Indus River Valley to Ur and on to the settling of Judea and the construction of the city of Jerusalem. The Jews are the "Calani" or Aryan (Civilized) Caucasian tribe/clan who came from ancient India. But it was Moses, you see, who appropriated and brought along the wisdom of the ancient Egyptians, so there's the historical crossroads which I am convinced that Jesus traveled personally, including travel to Alexandria in Egypt with access also to Greek thought and philosophy and mastery of the art of debate, of context and framing, and all accumulated human knowledge, wisdom and understanding. Yes the Library burned down 30 years prior, but the whole University remained including a sister library, and a vast network of "schools" and repositories of knowledge and wisdom, surely including initiation rites into the ancient mystery school and sacred sciences (Jesus tracing also Moses access to Egyptian wisdom -and look at his Great Work as a symbolic representation of the divine order of life on earth including both the spring and winter solstice).

But of Buddhism, Jesus seemed to feel that it led to a certain nihilistic POV when taken to it's logical conslusion, in the annihilation of all desire and passion, when he said "what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his own soul."

So when we take the great religious origins and wisdom traditions including those of the knowledge of initiation into the mysteries, to their origins, and look at the historical streams which generated the world religions, what or I should say WHO do we find standing there in the midst of it all, as a human historical crossroads unto himself but the person of Jesus Christ himself and his Magnum Opus or Great Work of all Ages as the summation both of Jewish messianic expectation and hope, and as a one-time-only Bodhisattva taking upon himself the suffering and the sorrows of the world because of love and passion and to stand as righteousness in the midst of a sinful and fallen world, a world savior, a redeemer, and I would add, a liberator.

Some things you can't leave up to the trust and hope in others I guess you could say and by God someone had to do it! The heavy lifting, to save a place and the best of the very best that life has to offer, held in reserve so that it could never be lost - protected, preserved, resurrected.

It's an evolutionary, familial framework, with lots of room for joy and celebration and back slapping and good cheer and friendship, that's the table of Christ, but someone had to frame it somewhere down the line, in collusion and by a co-conspiracy from the very beginning and even from before the foundation of the world, but for all the right reasons.., so it's a great joke you see told at the expense of the remaining devil within us who was blind as a bat and the last one to laugh, sadly for him.


Best Regards and God Bless, with Love,

NAM

Supporting Illustration

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
(scroll the first map to see the key to the right)

windword
reply to post by BobAthome

 

I don't know what you think that this Stele proves. According to it, Israel was wiped out by 1200 BC. So, if there was an Abraham, his descendants, as the Israel cited, were obliterated. So, where did the following Jews come from?

Where is the Biblical history of their destruction or capture by this Egyptian Pharaoh in 1200BC?

"I don't know what you think that this Stele proves."

What i think is irrelivent too the facts presented by the Stele.

(read all of the translation,,yes verifiable Historic Facts,, it aint only Isreal on there.)

"According to it, Israel was wiped out by 1200 BC"

big Opps on there part,, well u know how propaganda at home sells

" So, if there was an Abraham, his descendants, as the Israel cited, were obliterated. "

i assume u meant "So, if there was an Abraham, his descendants, as the Stele cited, were obliterated"

seems u have Israel on your mind.

"So, where did the following Jews come from? "

sit down with one, boy have they got a story for u ! and by following i think u mean Present Day.

ohh here,,