Illegal Aliens Demand Free Organ Transplants

I have two completely opposite feelings about the overall (larger) topic which is kind of inconvenient, sigh.

The first being that if someone is not legal in the country, the only response to the first word out of their mouth should be deporting them.

The second being that I totally understand Mexico's hellish situation, the inability of any individual to do anything about it, and I have some trouble, ethically, resenting people for doing what I myself would do were I in the same situation. OK I seriously doubt I'd be suing a foreign government, but what I meant was, for example coming over the border to try and find work here.

The Mexicans here in the states are in a situation much like -- er, feminists, let's say, since I'm female I hope that's a stereotype I can get away with talking about. It's always the gender feminists (the feminazi's as Limbaugh so memorably put it) the activitists and extremists and man-hating hystericals who end up in the news and people start thinking this is what feminism "is." That's total BS. Equity feminism is what the women of old who petitioned to vote were, and what plenty of man-loving, reasonable women are. But since they ARE reasonable, they aren't on platforms wailing, so they're not the ones people hear. It is really a small percentage of lunatics who are giving the larger population a bad reputation.

Well, I've seen a whole lot of Mexicans who came to this country because back home there was nothing but a likely bullet in the head and their wife and kids were starving. And they worked here for 20 hours a day 6-7 days a week making often 1/4 minimum wage to do the hardest, dirtiest damn work any human could do, no allowance of complaints, huge constant threat over them, 16 people living in a one room house, all so they could send nearly everything they made home to their woman and kids. Their options were "watching your family starve" or "try to get over the border to find work." That's it. No matter what I think of the larger situation politically, no matter how many opinions I have about illegal aliens, jobs and wages and more (and I'm so conservative there isn't even a political party for me, so I have plenty of opinions about that), there is no way that I cannot respect what I have often seen in this area. And none of those men were the bad attitude crotch-grabbing flag-burning flipping you off boneheads you see on the news and in pictures. They're not sue-america types.

Most of them may be cynical of their situation but they would give *anything* to be actual citizens and be ABLE to work their ass off for a living, to have a chance. And I am surrounded by USA citizens who you can't even pay to work for a living, some of whom have all kinds of opinions about what illegal aliens do to the country. In my perfect dreamworld we'd make citizenship a meritous award partly based on the willingness to work for a living -- which mere "survival" actually predicated up until about a century ago, when darwin's selection principle sadly died out in this country -- and it would probably only take two generations before the country was a radically different (and likely radically more conservative) place. Mexican illegals here get the reputation of a very small minority of total jerks who make the news and it is not at all reflective of what most of them are like.

But back to the whole organ donation thing.

We're having the wrong argument about this you guys.

It shouldn't only be over who deserves medical care, or what medical care. That just devolves into a political morass.

It should be over the priority list for who gets incredibly rare and valuable and limited-quantity supplies such as LIVING HUMAN ORGANS.

There are thousands of people waiting for organs of every kind. So if we give that illegal alien a kidney or whatever, how many people, including children, including war veterans, do NOT get that kidney?

That is the argument which has the most power to it. If you can demonstrate to me that there is not a single American who needs that kidney, that it's just EXTRA, ok THEN we can argue about whether they should get the "medical care" to actually stick the kidney into them.

Maybe we should force the people who have issues with illegal immigration out of the country, since there are so many eager to take their place.

Honestly, if you have a problem with people coming here because their homes are undesirable, you clearly know nothing about where we came from, and aren't welcome.

Originally posted by TheTalentedMrBryant
Maybe we should force the people who have issues with illegal immigration out of the country, since there are so many eager to take their place.

Honestly, if you have a problem with people coming here because their homes are undesirable, you clearly know nothing about where we came from, and aren't welcome.

Many of these illegals come right out and tell you they have no desire to become legal. They save the money they get here which is worth a lot more in their own country and plan on going back. I know a few who have done so already.

I'm sure there are illegals who are in very bad situations that come here I won't say that they don't, but I have worked beside illegals for many, many years. Some say they stay here because they get so much. Their husbands work under the table, they work a regular job and say they are a one income household so they can get welfare benefits. Some say they didn't come legally because it takes too long. Some are here for many years and never once tried to become legal.

How fair is it to the millions who come here through the proper channels? They see illegals come here and work here and raise their families while they are still waiting.

We have plenty of our own citizens who live in undesireable areas and they don't walts over to another country demanding to get what they want.

This isn't the America it once was. We are trillions of dollars in debt, many of our people are jobless, homeless and hungry. But pro illegals demand we keep letting them in by the millions.

We have long waiting lists for cheap housing for our poor and illegals are living there keeping our citizens in the waiting line. We have thousands of unemployed people needing to feed their families while illegals hold jobs.

Is it that we have no compassion for others? NO of course not. No one likes to see anyone suffer for any reason no matter where they are from or what color they are. But when we place a foreigner above our own citizens, there is a problem and a huge one at that.

Originally posted by Night Star
Some say they didn't come legally because it takes too long. Some are here for many years and never once tried to become legal.

You cannot "try to become legal" when you already live here. If you say "Hi I'm here, and I'm not legal," you get deported.

(Unless you are suing for body parts, as another thread is covering right now lol.)

And by "take too long" they mean "probably will be rejected for quota for 45 years" which means "No."

I agree with your points that for some people it is merely an opportunity for cash or advantage.

I just don't think the "wait or get permission" expectation is particularly reasonable in most of their situations.

reply to post by RedCairo


Arn't we supposed to have so many from different cultures and not mostly all the same kind of people? I admit I don't know everything or have all the answers.

What I find disturbing is how laws only apply to some people and not others. What I find disturbing is how we have allowed so many Latinos/Mexicans that they have literally changed America. Never before have we had to press one for english. In schools we had a choice of other languages to learn now it is only spanish. In many areas all across the USA we are required to speak spanish to get a job and the job has nothing to do with international business. It's like an invasion and we are being taken over.

Now they want organ transplants. If I or any loved one of mine needed an organ and it went to a foreigner instead, I'd be pretty upset. Where does it end?

I agree that anybody demanding anything free, let alone illegals demanding anything at all, is ridiculous.

As for the language, the Treaty of Guadalupe did guarantee the right to have spanish be a language in those territories as I dimly recall. This was mostly because they had seen the so-called whites wipe out other cultures (from the native americans here to the irish overseas) by forbidding their language. However the right to speak a language doesn't mean the right to cost millions or billions to require everything printed in 2+ languages.

Then again, the right to have your religion doesn't mean the right to stomp out all religion in the name of anyone having a different one, e.g. the ACLU suing to have all crosses removed from military graves -- I use this as an example of a certain mentality where one "right to be different" ends up becoming a manipulative point against everyone else and I agree that is injust.

As for having to learn a language for a job, I don't think that's unreasonable if your job focus has a lot of people who speak that language. I lived in Hartford CT nearly three decades ago and if you didn't speak Puerto Rican you were doomed in some city areas or some jobs.

At this point regulations are starting to insist on things truly nobody's business like that if you smoke, or are overweight (note: if it was so easy to change that, or even in possible in many cases, the diet industry and obesity rate wouldn't be anything like it is today), or if you don't join some specific food-cult (e.g. recording your 'healthy' food in shared software which may in fact be radically different than what you consider healthy, and others see the entries and/or your "results" may be scored based on it) you may be fined (e.g. have to pay way more for health insurance), or badly affected (be seen as "not a team player" for not joining the food-cult-social-club) and so on.

There's all kinds of crazy crap that's infesting the workplace at this point which deserves a good kick, but I don't think asking someone to learn a language because they are working near/with people dominantly of a culture that speaks it is unreasonable. It's a helluva lot easier for most people to learn spanish than magically lose and keep off 120# for example, and yet that's an open prejudice that affects getting jobs, keeping jobs, getting promotions, even when for that individual it has zero observable impact on their job performance. If you lived in many other countries, speaking English so you could talk to tourists would be a big deal in many jobs, and how injust must that seem to someone in say, oh I dunno, Germany? Wait. Most Germans probably speak or at least read better english than half our own people do, so never mind, but you know what I mean.

The funny thing is, two centuries ago people were saying exactly the same thing. OMG the horror, all the immigrants, stop those damn irish at the gates, don't let them ashore! (My black irish ancestors changed their name to an English name, which I think was perfectly reasonable, so they could get jobs.)

I just think it's funny that some of my ancestors came to this continent, nearly genocided its natives, and then complained like hell because other people wanted to come to this area too, like "what gall, those invaders of another race and language! Of all the nerve!" I'm pretty sure some of my other (native) ancestors got a real cynical laugh out of that...

Well anyway. I think it is the right of any human being to utter whatever words they wish like "I demand a foreign country give me money and so on" and I think it is the right of other human beings to demand their public servants (...) enforce the established laws of the land and deport them.

Originally posted by Night Star
reply to post by RedCairo

 

In schools we had a choice of other languages to learn now it is only spanish.

I agree that sucks. However this is really just the light sprinkles on the disaster of forced schooling and indoctrination as education and centralization of pedagogy as bred compliant ignorance. In other words, it's not the Mexicans' fault our school systems so often suck.

Originally posted by shaneslaughta
Let them all in, give them what they want....the US is in debt close to 70 trillion....whats another few leaches on the system.

edit on 8/20/2013 by shaneslaughta because: Obvious scarcasam

Lol you think people getting an organ that will help them continue to live, and continue to put money into our stores is a problem?

How about our military machines

one example being the F22 Raptor - 66 BILLIONS #ING DOLLARS..... for the "total" amount of the ones built - 195, and thats not even considering the Hidden cache of vehicles this country has.
^ source en.wikipedia.org...

Do you even know how how much our "b-2 spirit spyplanes" cost a piece? 7 4 7 MILLIONS #ING DOLLARS A PIECE!
en.wikipedia.org...

Those are JUST 2 TYPES of planes. Are the b-2 spirits the ONLY kind of spyplane we make I DOUBT IT.

You then take into consideration the BOMBS and other MUNITIONS, Add that to the cost of FUEL, and to PAY the #ing PILOTS, and how about the people who have to payed for designing these machines?

And your worried about a few "leaches" who still support our economy via buying our goods?

This used to be the melting pot of the world, now its just a bunch of brainwashed morons being lead to hate whatever group given it isn't the one whos obviously robbing them #ing blind.

Look up any incident where someone wins millions for being #ed up by a cop without any real reason.... who is paying that bill? Not the #ing police departments, after all with how much they go around looking for trouble, as to provide reasoning to extend their budgets (# dangerous give us more money). ITS YOU AND ME.

Your just another sheeple who will be shaved in the sheepocalypse.

What a bloody nerve!What's it going to be next-born Americans should give up their houses+cars+all possessions to these immigrants? I would tell them to take a hike-back across the border where they didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of.Ingrates.
But there are many immigrants that helped make America great-and feels blessed to be allowed to make a better life in the US.You get folks with a surreal sense of entitlement in any sector of any population.These ones should be told to piss of back to their country of origin+see how far they get there,with all their unrealistic expectations,demands+sense of entitlement.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Indigo5

 

And those rights are for US citizens. Not the One World Crap idea you and other Progressives think of.

Just to be clear...this is the statement that offended you so deeply...

Originally posted by Indigo5
We (as people) are obligated to recognize them as fellow human beings, with the same rights endowed by their creator as ourselves. Too often the rhetoric crosses into dehumanizinig.

This was your response..

Originally posted by macman
Yeah, I checked the Founding Documents, and I can't find that anywhere.

Your perspective has a great deal in common with the despots of old England...and the founding fathers would have no tolerance for your kind. The declaration of independance was a "Declaration" of American Principles...not a legal document

"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

NOT "all US Citizens"
NOT "Endowed by the US Gov."

UNALIENABLE....

Now...does that right include organ transplants? No. But I simply asked that ignorant, hateful idealogues not "dehumanize" these people...

And that was too much for you...

You have no respect for the principles our country was founded on.

So say I, so say the founding fathers.....And the American public will once again make thier opinion known about such vitriolic, despotic idealogies in the comming elections.

The GOP continues it's descent....ONCE winning the popular vote for POTUS in the past 24 years...

And the far-right keeps thinking it's because they just haven't hated enough on the poor, the liberals, the minorities...just not enough voter suppression.

Your proud refusal to engage in basic humanity typifies the disease the GOP is suffering from...a disease that is devouring the honorable conservatives that this country needs in it's public debate.

edit on 22-8-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

Why should someone here ILLEGALLY be entitled to ANYTHING?

reply to post by shaukuna

one example being the F22 Raptor - 66 BILLIONS #ING DOLLARS..... for the "total" amount of the ones built - 195, and thats not even considering the Hidden cache of vehicles this country has.
^ source en.wikipedia.org...

Do you even know how how much our "b-2 spirit spyplanes" cost a piece? 7 4 7 MILLIONS #ING DOLLARS A PIECE!
en.wikipedia.org...

Well, at least those planes protect our country and last more than a year.

In the meanwhile, there are plenty of statistics that show that illegal immigrants cost the U.S. $110+ BILLION PER YEAR! And no, what they spend in stores, taxes, etc. doesn't come close to making up the difference.

Originally posted by CoolStoryMan
Why should someone here ILLEGALLY be entitled to ANYTHING?

I asked that they not be dehumanized.

And breaking the law does not void human rights...lest next time you get pulled over for a traffic violation you are OK with being sodomized by the officer.

Your hate lacks logic.

reply to post by Indigo5


Your analogy lacks logic.

His analogy is spot on.

Your stance is that it is okay to deprive someone of human rights if they are doing something illegal, its what your whole argument is built on. So if you get caught speeding, the office should be well within his rights to sodomize you.

As for "why should anyone be here illegally be entitled to anything?" Well, I suppose we could tell someone who is dying that they need to ignore the timetable they have for living in order to become a legal citizen. I'm sure that would make their kidneys last longer.

reply to post by TheTalentedMrBryant


What about the human rights of every other person waiting in line for an organ?

I didn't say anything about them, your stance is that they shouldn't be on the list at all.

If an illegal has a condition that is more severe than a legal citizen, the legal citizen should probably stop feeling so entitled and let someone who is about to die go ahead of him. Otherwise, place them accordingly. "Do no harm" in the hippocratic oath has never been amended to "Do no harm to americans."

reply to post by TheTalentedMrBryant


Maybe you missed my post where I said that all men are created equal, but shouldn't be treated equally when one commits a crime and another doesn't. It's not about dehumanizing anyone, but all humans should be held accountable for their actions equally.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by TheTalentedMrBryant

 

Maybe you missed my post where I said that all men are created equal, but shouldn't be treated equally when one commits a crime and another doesn't. It's not about dehumanizing anyone, but all humans should be held accountable for their actions equally.

And doctors treat criminals all the time? Criminals guilty of much worse crimes than crossing a border. Doctors are not a branch of law enforcement or the courts.

And if they were, would you contest that crossing a border illegally warrants the death penalty?

Originally posted by Deetermined

In the meanwhile, there are plenty of statistics that show that illegal immigrants cost the U.S. $110+ BILLION PER YEAR! And no, what they spend in stores, taxes, etc. doesn't come close to making up the difference.

False...what they contribute economically far outstrips any legitimate expense.

Two years since Georgia and Alabama passed some of the most restrictive laws on illegal immigrants in the nation.

And crops rot in the fields.

It only started to slightly abate recently when the state very quitely backed off on enforcing the laws and highlighted loop-holes that would allow workers to return.

Immediately after the laws were passed, farmers in both states complained that foreign workers who lived there had left and that the itinerant migrants who generally came through were staying away. American workers weren't stepping forward to perform the back-breaking work immigrants had done for years, and crops were rotting in the fields because of a lack of laborers, they said.

An informal survey conducted in Georgia showed that farmers of onions, watermelons and other hand-picked crops lacked more than 11,000 workers during their spring and summer harvests of 2011, Georgia Department of Agriculture Commissioner Gary Black told a U.S. Senate subcommittee hearing on immigration enforcement and farm labor.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

Crops Rotting In Georgia Since Illegal Alien Farm Workers Fled State
Read more at wonkette.com...

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by TheTalentedMrBryant

 

Maybe you missed my post where I said that all men are created equal, but shouldn't be treated equally when one commits a crime and another doesn't. It's not about dehumanizing anyone, but all humans should be held accountable for their actions equally.

I did read that post. This really becomes part of a bigger issue, as the only "crime" that would have been committed is their immigration status. Yes they are "illegal", but that doesn't mean it wasn't justified.

"Quod est necessarium est licitum" or, "that which is necessary is legal." We know there are countless in our country that have immigrated here out of necessity; whether it be for their lives or for the lives of their families. I can not accept that fact and then also deny them the right to live.