Illegal Aliens Demand Free Organ Transplants

reply to post by Deetermined

Nationally, since 1994, the violent crime rate has declined 34% and the property crime rate has fallen 26%, even as the number of undocumented immigrants has doubled. According to the conservative Americas Majority Foundation, crime rates during the period 1999–2006 were lowest in states with the highest immigration growth rates. During that period the total crime rate fell 14% in the 19 top immigration states, compared to only 7% in the other 31. Truth is, foreign-born people in America — whether they are naturalized citizens, permanent residents, or undocumented — are incarcerated at a much lower rate than native-born Americans, according to the National Institute of Corrections.

www.policymic.com...

so, does this mean we can and should forcibly TAKE their organs and call it a donation ??
if not, why ?

reply to post by Indigo5


You do make a habit of requiring me to think about replies, I do say.

First part, I'm not entirely sure what you were referring to and really, my example wasn't the best one. I'll chalk that up to my bad on really not thinking through a comparison for clarity.

3rd...They were brought here as unaware children...

Ahhhh! The Kryptonite to the Illegal debate from my side of it. Yes... The children. That is a real problem as they can never really be said to have chosen let alone contributed to their illegal status unless they came in late to mid teens. Then we aren't calling them Children anyway unless making the technical legal distinction. At least I'm not.

Kids tho? Wow.. Yeah... Of all the people in the illegal issue, they are the only ones I have sympathy for by the 'no fault of their own' nature of their predicament. Further adding to the mess is deportation to a nation they don't even know or speak the language in, in many cases.

I'll just admit here..You stumped me. The only way to debate this aspect is to totally blow outside the Organ Transplant context and into the full blown illegal debate, which I'm definitely not doing to derail my own thread. (Not saying your question did..but my only way to answer sure would)

And yet we do?...and even through the Organ Donor program ...all-the-time...less than 1% of recipients are uninsured.

Yes we do. It's why you'll never hear me say the Medical system we had before the current mess actually worked well enough to leave alone. Oh, it needed and (obviously) still does need radical reform. Particularly where matters of treatment to cause or prevent immediate life and death are concerned. If someone walked in to an Emergency Room with an arrow sticking through their chest, it's ILLEGAL not to save them and treat them to stable and basic health condition. If they walk in dying of organ failure? "Well, let's make you confortable..." if they don't just say 'sorry' and show the person to the door. That is the dark side and shame of what I've always thought of as one of the best systems in the world.

We..."we" have any obligation....are the organ donor programs international? Cross-border? And who pays for them? Charities? or tax-payers? The organ donor program...is it a branch of INS? Justice? Is it a political org?

Unless something about Chicago's hospital in this story is exceptional to any other, then it's a domestic organ registry they'd be demanding benefit from.

Should we prohibit Illegals from donating? Well, how can I answer that? lol..... Really, I'm just amused that someone might actually feel how I do on one side and then actually say NO to prohibiting them from giving to that side. That would be obscenely hypocritical. If they are too illegal to receive one, they shouldn't be 'harvested' to the benefit of a program they could not take any benefit from, had they asked for it before death.

To answer any other way would be the worst kind of intellectual lie, I'd have to say. My opinion, anyway.

On your last point? I see NO reason why the status in prison should be any different than the status out here. If we are in agreement that cost should not be a factor to condemn someone to die in freedom, then it absolutely should not be in prison either. However, illegal on the street is illegal in prison. Nothing changed...and I'd be happy to deport them right OUT, without prison in all but violent crime, if that poses a moral dilemma for giving what amounts to hospice care inside, but not transplant from a national system they have no legal right to even talk about......seeing as how their physical presence alone, is a felony.

*** On a side note, I see no logical reason for the restrictions on prisoner organ donation. It should never come with promise of reduction in time or special treatment outside the recovery time in the medical wing vs. general population cells....but beyond that? Prisoners would be an outstanding resource for organs IF they meet medical screening and IF it's 100% free will and without compensation or coercion. The idea that a prisoner with good healthy organs cannot donate part of a liver or a kidney or bone marrow is CRIMINAL in itself...and how many die on waiting lists when an inmate looking to make right for a life gone wrong could have saved their lives?

reply to post by Indigo5


Regardless of violent crime declining or not, according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Mexican citizens make up 18.0% of the prison population and immigration related incidents make up 11.8% of the crimes (and those are just the ones who got caught).

www.bop.gov...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Appreciate the detailed and thoughtful responses.

I think you and I landed where it should be in this debate. Not much I disagree with in your post, and you responded to my questions and challenges well and moved me in your direction in the process.

I would still argue...if there was a charitable org that signed off on financing organ transplants for the uninsured, regardless of citizenship status, then that should happen when possible. I don't think being undocumented warrants the death penalty...nor do I think being uninsured does...

Originally posted by Night Star
People sometimes have to wait a long time for an organ.

And people wait a long time to become legal citizens.

I guess this doesn't surprise me, as they don't want to do entry here the right way, nor are they really punished by the Govt for doing it the wrong way. So, why should they do this process the right way either.

reply to post by Indigo5

I'll meet ya half way on your last point in a sincere feeling for it. If a 100% private charity paid for the transplant, to include everything down to the Doctors salary for the period they worked the case...everything? Well.. One other thing would have to be in that, IMO. It would also have to be an organ that was not taken from someone else on the list.

In other words..if it's like lungs, for instance, where there are never enough and people die every year? Better find a donor outside the US and then pay private for everything else....but that's my view. If it wasn't a 'critical shortage' issue (I'm not sure any have what could be called a surplus?) then I guess their getting it would hurt no one, take from no one and may even make use of something that wouldn't otherwise be?

Heck.. some topics folks never 100% agree on, but I do share your sentiment on a good debate here. Pretty close to agreement on the major points that matter.

Originally posted by Indigo5
We (as people) are obligated to recognize them as fellow human beings, with the same rights endowed by their creator as ourselves. Too often the rhetoric crosses into dehumanizinig.

Yeah, I checked the Founding Documents, and I can't find that anywhere.

reply to post by wrabbit2000


In the country where i live, Norway, has ratified the human rights. This incudes the rights to health care.
Due to this the hospitals and emergency rooms here can not refuse health care to anyone who can not provide ID, and are banned from alerting the police if they suspect illegal immigrants.

I prefer it this way.

Originally posted by tyfon
reply to post by wrabbit2000

 

In the country where i live, Norway, has ratified the human rights. This incudes the rights to health care.
Due to this the hospitals and emergency rooms here can not refuse health care to anyone who can not provide ID, and are banned from alerting the police if they suspect illegal immigrants.

I prefer it this way.

And you can keep it.

reply to post by macman

Yeah, I checked the Founding Documents, and I can't find that anywhere.

I was just thinking that

Presently, the average citizen is having trouble having their basic right and freedoms upheld. What makes people think they are entitled to rights and freedom beyond what was initially guaranteed, while others fight to maintain what should be a given.

I have a dear friend waiting for a heart transplant, been waiting for a while now. With the way this crap govt is going, some damn illegal will get a heart and she will die, as she is really ill right now

Having read the posts and the article the following can be stated:

To begin, I will let everyone know that I am all for legal immigration to the USA. That any person wanting to take the time to come to this country and be a part of this nation, to include giving up all allegiences to their former country, we should welcome in with open arms and give them a fair shot at being a member of a great nation. However, this is not the case, and there are a few things that can be stated to that effect.

When it comes to the hunger strikers that are out infront of a hospital, cause they are illegale immigrants, let them starve, do not give them any assistence and then send the bill to their home country to get the body back and all of the aid that they got while here in the USA.

Now while this may seem callous, the point is this: We are a nation of laws, we should follow the laws. While people will cry about human rights, then here is something to consider. The children who are born to illegal immigrants in the USA, or the children who are not adults, or the pregnant women who would risk losing their children in coming to this country, where is the concern for the children that they would have here to be US citizens? None, they do not care that their actions, the very choices would affect those humans, so why should we be concerned about such? With all of the citizens in this country, who go hungry, or without a home, or who need medical care, where is the cry and out pouring to help them? Why is it that the very government is being forced to put the needs of a non citizen, someone who has broken the law, endangered their life and that of others first above a family who struggles to make ends meet?

The reality is that the real crime here is that the federal government chooses to turn a blind eye to these problems cause it is politcially inconveinet to do anything about such and then turn around to show good will towards those who have broken the laws already to pander for votes. As sad and cold as it may seem, perhaps we should stop pandering and look at taking care of our own citizens, helping them out, rather than give billions around the world to care for people who show no care or tolerance towards this Country, or seek to use the USA for nothing more than an open credit card.

Just a question, arent all americans really sons and daughters of immigrants, wasent the usa build by immigrants, oh and arent the native people that you guys call illegal immigrants the real americans.

Oh and yes all illegal immigrants want free transplant, not just the few lets put them all together lol.

Oh i forgot its illegal immigrants fault the usa is going down the drain

Did i miss something, cant wait for the answer to my question, or typical ats replies

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by Indigo5
We (as people) are obligated to recognize them as fellow human beings, with the same rights endowed by their creator as ourselves. Too often the rhetoric crosses into dehumanizinig.

Yeah, I checked the Founding Documents, and I can't find that anywhere.

I didn't say "we (as Americans)?"...I said we (as people)...

And perhaps you should read it sometime?

"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

Didn't say endowed by INS, the US Gov....Or your citizenship status...

Some damn ugly posts on this thread.

Cheering dehumanizing strangers?

Originally posted by MDDoxs

Presently, the average citizen is having trouble having their basic right and freedoms upheld. What makes people think they are entitled to rights and freedom beyond what was initially guaranteed, while others fight to maintain what should be a given

Because your "creator" doesn't give a eff what your passport says....your "creator" does care how you treat his children though...

And the Declaration goes..."all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

NOT ALL US CITIZENS ARE CREATED EQUAL....

What a toxic brew of ignorance and hate this issue brings out in people predisposed to it!

And psst...What do you think the founders meant by "unalienable rights?"

Originally posted by dukeofjive696969
Just a question, arent all americans really sons and daughters of immigrants, wasent the usa build by immigrants, oh and arent the native people that you guys call illegal immigrants the real americans.

My family LEGALLY emigrated from Germany in the early 1900's, came in thru Ellis island, had to deal with all the bs that comes with LEGALLY emigrating

Notice the word I'm emphasizing here...LEGAL

reply to post by wrabbit2000


Blame the Neocon New World Order politicians. They are the ones creating these policies for their corporate globalist utopia where everyone serves them at our expense.

reply to post by neo96

WHAT makes you so effing special ?

Ummmmm.... they vote Democrat and increase corporate profit margins?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by neo96

 

WHAT makes you so effing special ?

Ummmmm.... they vote Democrat and increase corporate profit margins?

Why yes I can't argue that they do tend to whisper sweet nothing in their ears, telling them how special they are pretty much constantly.

My bad I completely forgot about that.