"Hope springs eternal in the human breast...", page 1

posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 11:58 AM

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Beautiful quote from Alexander Pope if I must say so.
Seems to go so eloquently with the continued talk of voter fraud, rigged machines, and the overall theory of how and why Bush won over Kerry.

Wouldn't you say so?
Well, despite if you agree or not, seems that some news outlets and papers (ie: L.A.Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, etc.) have taken an interest what has been transpiring within the internet since the elections.

Interesting article here from the Seattle Times mentioning precisely what I am mentioning, entitled:
Conspiracy theories about presidential election flood Internet

MIAMI � The e-mail subject lines couldn't be any bigger and bolder: "Another Stolen Election," "Presidential election was hacked," "Ohio Fraud."

Even as Sen. John Kerry's campaign is steadfastly refusing to challenge the results of the presidential election, the bloggers and the mortally wounded party loyalists and the spreadsheet-wielding conspiracy theorists are filling the Internet with head-turning allegations.

--snip--

The Ohio vote-fraud theory appears to stem from the curious ways of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections. During even-numbered years, the county's canvassing board posts vote totals that include the results from congressional districts outside the county that spill over Cuyahoga's borders. The quirk made it look as if the county had 90,000 more votes than voters.

The disparities were spotted, and urgent mass mailings began: "Ohio precincts report up to 1,586% turnout ... 30 Precincts in Ohio's Cuyahoga County report 'over' 100% turnout!" Later, the county added a disclaimer to its Web site in an attempt to explain the numbers.

"It takes me about three times to explain" why the fraud allegation is untrue, said Kimberly Bartlett, community outreach specialist for the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections. "You have to ask them why no top Democrat is making these charges."

--snip--

The Florida case is more nuanced than the Ohio voting battle. Numerous bloggers have noted that President Bush's vote totals in 47 Florida counties were larger � in some cases much larger � than the number of registered Republican voters in the same counties. A widely distributed piece on Consortiumnews.com said the results "are so statistically stunning that they border on the unbelievable."

The article's main numbers are correct. But the central premise � that there is something suspicious about Bush getting more votes than the number of registered Republicans in rural counties, which use paper ballots � may not be suspicious at all. It does not account for thousands of independents or for voters who do not list party affiliation. It is also common for Florida Democrats, particularly the "Dixiecrats" in the northern reaches of the state and the Panhandle, to vote for Republicans, a pattern repeated in much of the Deep South.

--snip--

Many voting experts say the theory that the exit polls were correct is deeply flawed because the polls oversampled women. MIT political scientist Charles Stewart III also has said focusing solely on the early polls favoring Kerry in Ohio and Florida is the wrong approach because exit polls in some Democratic-leaning states tilted toward Bush, evening out the national picture.

The U.S. Justice Department, which handles complaints fielded by a bipartisan commission formed after the 2000 election chaos, said the allegations of vote buying and voter-registration fraud were no different from the pattern of previous elections.

But other sources are documenting huge numbers of complaints. Verified Voting, a group formed by a Stanford University professor to assess electronic voting, has collected 31,000 reports of election fraud and other problems, but nothing that would overturn the Nov. 2 outcome.

--snip--

A high-ranking Democrat, mindful of balancing respect for the complainers and a desire to move on, summed up the conspiracy theorists with a line from Alexander Pope: "Hope springs eternal in the human breast."

Well...Interesting read to say the least. Whether you blow it off or find 'reason' within its words, what say ye fellow conspirators? Are you/we being mocked? Are they indicating that you/we have no idea as how to review information from both sides before arguing or presenting a case that asserts one cheated and another didn't?
What say ye?!

seekerof

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Seekerof]

Bout Time

posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 12:06 PM

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Look back on some of the non-conspiracy news items of the past four years, things that were reported extensively in the International media, yet received barely a mention here, and when it did, something like the Sacramento Bee or the Chippendale Post Register Ledger Gazzette or some other such local rag.
It's verifiable: the more important core information is for the AMerican populace, the more it's under reported or blacked out completely.

Maybe I've missed it, though I have seen it quoted numerous times in the 'debunk' type of article: "Even as Sen. John Kerry's campaign is steadfastly refusing to challenge the results"

Really? Is there a time stamp on that? I have not seen it recently or ever, except some framing of that on the day of concession.

sturod84

posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 12:30 PM

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they cant be mocking me since i have contributed nothing to the research ha! i fell that a voter fraud seems rather low on the spectrum of conspiracy for some of us die hard NWO believers, small potatoes like this are not all that compelling. some of us saw it coming, but still there will be little concrete evidence to emerge, and little media spotlight. its how it always goes, anything to damage our nations good name goes quickly forgoten :/

Bout Time

posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 04:18 PM

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Originally posted by sturod84
i fell that a voter fraud seems rather low on the spectrum of conspiracy for some of us die hard NWO believers, small potatoes like this are not all that compelling.

THe architects of PNAC went from think tank wonks to Executive Brabch Shot callers in less than one half of a presidential term. The subject of the 2000 voter recount was lost amid a terror attack, relegating it to a footnote in history ( for the sheep at least). Now that same group is looking at an unrestrained ( which 2nd terms are ) application of their 'vision' after numerous e-vote failures. Added to that, some of the more radical PNAC members are set to assume broader power with the cabinet shuffle; Wolfowitz being key among them.

Now the size of the potato makes no never mind to the tast of the Sheppards Pie, no? Small things add up to a bif finale if they're orchestrated right.

Bout Time

posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 04:19 PM

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Originally posted by sturod84
i fell that a voter fraud seems rather low on the spectrum of conspiracy for some of us die hard NWO believers, small potatoes like this are not all that compelling.

THe architects of PNAC went from think tank wonks to Executive Branch Shot callers in less than one half of a presidential term. The subject of the 2000 voter recount was lost amid a terror attack, relegating it to a footnote in history ( for the sheep at least). Now that same group is looking at an unrestrained ( which 2nd terms are ) application of their 'vision' after numerous e-vote failures. Added to that, some of the more radical PNAC members are set to assume broader power with the cabinet shuffle; Wolfowitz being key among them.

Now the size of the potato makes no never mind to the taste of the Sheppards Pie, no? Small things add up to a big finale if they're orchestrated right.

Seekerof

posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 08:03 AM

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The size of the potato in Sheppard's Pie makes no difference to the taste?

BT.....matter of relative taste preferences, don't ya think?
See, that's the problem with you Democrat's and left leaning liberal's, you try to say that something doesn't apply when in truth, it does....
Example: In the South, Democrat's went for a 20-6 advantage to a reversal of 22-4. Please, feel free to keep thinking that the 'small' things don't matter, k? Cause from where I'm sitting and viewing things, that same "the size of the potato makes no difference in the Sheppard's Pie taste" probably lost Kerry the election, besides the other 'facts'....that's another story though....

Read the New York Times this a.m.? I don't have a link, but I have heard that there are indications that a Kerry Campaign spokesman, Mr. David Wade, verbally insinuated that he would literally give his right arm up if those internet 'stories' on the election being stolen 'were' remotely true.

Then there is the ever-increasing media attention taking place over the internet 'fuss' over such....just ran across this one:
'Bush Stole Election' Conspiracy Theories Debunked

Interesting....
Were the discussions and theories prevailing today on this matter really "debunked"?
Why those major Democrat's so quiet on this, BT? Big media is not running with this? Why? They know something that you and others don't? Could it be that all this is a proverbial load of crap, having no bearing on the election results, changing nothing in and of the outcome? Humorously, why does Kerry still have a 'campaign' spokesman(men)? Are rumors and theories only being fueled so that those proponents against Bush, those Democrat's, and those left leaning liberals can have 'ammo' to say that another election was stolen from us? Hmm..?

seekerof

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Seekerof]

Bout Time

posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 09:29 AM

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I said small things DO MATTER!!! I guess it wasn't one of my better analogies!
Good God man, quoting Newsmax....with ME!?!?! What have I done to offend you!?! Mia Culpa, Mia Clupa !!!

It's a circular logic applied that I haven't quite vectored in on it's true genesis point yet: if real machine manipulation lead to false vote tallies, how does the thing stay legitimate? Has anyone taken all areas and gleaned away every potentially corrupted vote tally, either paper or electronic and tallied up the remainder? And does that remainder give a resounding win to Bush?

I have not seen that.

I don't know your depth of knowledge on commercial computing, but this, from my perspective of being an IT professional for the past 20 years with my undergraduate in Comp Sci, is proof positive of a willfully corrupted vote by the key Republican backer & manufacturer of voting kiosks:

Diebold Source Code: Corrupted!

If you can read that and still say that there in "Nothing to see here, move along", then I'm going to have to put you in the 'Grady & edsinger' category!

Seekerof

posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 11:44 AM

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BT, you mention:

If you can read that ....nothing to see here, move on...

The real question is not whether I see all this as a "nothing to see here, move on" situation, per se', but why the vast majority of Democratic politician's are seeing it that way? See, you and I can play word semantics all day long, but as my article's mention, the vast majority of the people within the 'past' Kerry campaign and the vast majority of Democrat's, people, voter's, and politician's, are seeing this as quoted above. They are 'wishing' and 'hoping' that all this fuss on the internet is real and can turn Time back to the hours prior to the Kerry campaign conceeding defeat. Whys that, BT?

Besides, I have stated all along, I have no problemo if people want to investigate the 'machines'...my problemo is when those same people do it from a biased perspective, taking bits of half-facts and half-truths, and 'pasting' them together to hypothetically come up with "it was Bush who tampered with the machines and rigged them so he would win" mentality. You and others going to invest your time into proving that the 'machines' were rigged or corrupted, be sure to add the disclaimer that if Bush had to gain from the 'machines', it can likewise be said that Kerry did also! If your premise is true:

...is proof positive of a willfully corrupted vote by the key Republican backer & manufacturer of voting kiosks...

Then pray tell, why isn't your 'friend' Mr. Kerry and MORE of the Democrat's not making a stink of this? Please spare me the hassle of listening to the cliche' that he is doing this for the nation, to prevent further divide, etc. The office of the Presidency is at play here BT, not a senator's seat.....!
Why, o, why is he not screaming and crying foul? Again, why is the vast majority of Democrat's holding office and government seats not buying into this tripe on and of 'voting conspiracy'.....?

Again, you beat the path around the questions concerning why the major press wasn't buying into this 'stuff', why Time and Newsweek, etc. aren't commenting thus, why the vast majority of Democrat's are not crying havoc over this stuff.....'conspiracy' or no conspiracy here BT, why is it continuing to be discussed as if there was some sort of massive 'conspiracy'?
Despite irregularities, is there really proof of a vast enough voting conspiracy to have a real and true contested presidency? Or is this like the lamented calls for the Bush impeachment that fell absolutely on its face and never amounted to anything but the simple gnashing of teeth?

seekerof

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Seekerof]

Bout Time

posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 12:00 PM

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I stated that earlier & have been on that issue for, well, forever.

I don't have the answer as to the insights of what is being assembled by Politicos or what is letting fall to pass; I can only, just like YOU, speculate the angles.
I feel confident, however, that the issues I've tabled here, particularly a software company intentionally using out dated encyption hard coded into their source code, is a very important point of focus. Why it's not more widely deciminated - we have the corporate media to thank for that. Why it's not contesting the vote - we don't know that yet.
Until then, we can discuss till we're blue in the face on why you're quoting NewsMax !!!

billybob

posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 12:35 PM
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let's see. if i entered into an election, surmisably i would have an eye on the 'inside track', and would realise the extent of corruption running throughout the political arenas. i would realise, that these people(the ruling JUNTA) are engaging in behaviour which is illegal in the eyes of the world(torture, no due process, institutionlised rape and degradation, assassination). i would also realise, that if i wanted to make a difference, i would have to wait for a popular movement by the people, because otherwise i have painted a huge target on my forehead.
and that's just the 'good' ones game. when we talk about kerry, it should always be prefaced with 'frater bonesman', and stop pretending he actually intended to win.
bush himself, in the famous '23' interview said that his allegiance to skull and bones was HIGHER than his allegiance to america. this in itself is intolerable.
i'm putting you in the edsinger quadrant(actually, edsinger and grady are in your quadrant, you were here first). only look at the convenient facts, and accuse the oppostition of the same.
a man of reason, such as yourself, clearly should see that whether the election was fixed or not, that the outcome was inaccurate, and as a 'true american', should be demanding a FAIR, ACCURATE and EQUITABLE(arrest badnarick. he's within the law) voting process. instead, it's the same old, 'get over it. the people have spoken'. but the people haven't spoken. the machines have. bad code written by a felon. c'mon. seriously. how can you defend this?
just curious. did you go to yale?

[edit on 12-11-2004 by billybob]

jsobecky

posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by Bout Time
I don't know your depth of knowledge on commercial computing, but this, from my perspective of being an IT professional for the past 20 years with my undergraduate in Comp Sci, is proof positive of a willfully corrupted vote by the key Republican backer & manufacturer of voting kiosks:

I guess that they forgot to corrupt the state of Maryland, which voted entirely on electronic voting machines, and was won by Kerry by a 13% margin.

MD

Nothing to see here, move along.

27jd

posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 01:01 PM
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Personally, I'm convinced this election was fraud from the start, but I think both parties were in on it. And I think Hillary Clinton will be "elected" in 2008, although many will disagree. I don't think the people have truly had a vote in a long time. I think it's pointless to try and contest this when, IMO, Kerry wasn't really running in the first place. I could very well be wrong, I even hope I am, but it's hard to imagine America being so ignorant as to elect a man like Bush president, again. And it's also hard to imagine Kerry, if he truly was running to win, throwing in the towel before all the votes were counted and the irregularities ironed out. I live in a "red" state, and I don't know anybody who likes Bush, I find that strange.

Here's an MSNBC article I found on this:

President Bush declared victory eight days ago, but in the parallel universe known as the Internet, the presidential campaign is still raging. Web sites hostile to the president claim massive vote fraud, that the election was stolen, that Sen. Kerry really won.

Presidential candidate Ralph Nader says Republican officials in Ohio skewed the election towards Bush.

"This election was hijacked from A to Z,� says Nader.

Most of the Internet stories focus on the key battleground states of Ohio and Florida.

In the Florida panhandle, they ask, how could Bush have won so big when registered Democrats far outnumber Republicans? In Ohio they claim a computer glitch gave Bush 4,000 extra votes. In many states, they insist, some voters pushed "Kerry" on touch screen machines, but the check appeared next to "Bush." And what about those early exit polls giving Kerry the lead? They say that means the election was stolen.

Convinced? Well, even the Kerry team is not, declaring in a statement Thursday that while they want every vote counted, "the outcome of the election is not in doubt.�

Doug Chapin, director of the non-partisan group Electionline.org, says there were many problems on Election Day, from long lines to malfunctioning machines, but there's no evidence the election was hijacked.

�I don�t think this election was stolen,� says Chapin. "I think there are conspiracy theories. I think they are consistent with a phenomenon we have seen on the Internet in recent years.�

On the Internet, stories are told and repeated, often without being verified. Regarding those Democratic counties in Florida that voted for Bush, they've been voting Republican for years. As for the 4,000 extra Bush votes in Ohio, officials say it was just one machine, caught and corrected.

How about those reports of a vote for Kerry getting Bush? Election experts say it happened both ways, and in most cases it was voter error. And as for the early exit polls they were just that, early, and election officials say, wrong.

But those explanations are likely to have little effect on the president�s Internet critics, who are convinced the Republicans stole the election � again.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Bout Time

posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Bout Time
I don't know your depth of knowledge on commercial computing, but this, from my perspective of being an IT professional for the past 20 years with my undergraduate in Comp Sci, is proof positive of a willfully corrupted vote by the key Republican backer & manufacturer of voting kiosks:

I guess that they forgot to corrupt the state of Maryland, which voted entirely on electronic voting machines, and was won by Kerry by a 13% margin.

MD

Nothing to see here, move along.

You have to, really, move beyond the partisan Bush worship, Clint.

Anybody on this board has some sort of computer knowledge; they've downloaded software and gone through a "DO you Accept" checkoff after a lengthy disclaimer. That disclaimer is all about the CODE!! " 128 bit encyption" is standard jargon, even to our less than techie users on here via WebTV or *ghastly* America Online.

This is a glaring & intentional defect , Clint, you should be an American first on it, and a Republican second.

jsobecky

posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by Bout Time
Anybody on this board has some sort of computer knowledge; they've downloaded software and gone through a "DO you Accept" checkoff after a lengthy disclaimer. That disclaimer is all about the CODE!! " 128 bit encyption" is standard jargon, even to our less than techie users on here via WebTV or *ghastly* America Online.

This is a glaring & intentional defect , Clint, you should be an American first on it, and a Republican second.

I know a little bit about computers, BT, and the difference between a 56 bit and 128 bit encryption code is only part of it. The software, we leave to the beachball stackers like you
but being a systems engineer and instructor, you need to know the lingo and logic.

If you have read any of my posts in other threads, you would see that I have consistently said that whomever designed and sold these machines should be summarily fired. But you can't lay the entire blame on Diebold, you have to blame the states that use the machines also. HAVA gives the funds, spend them wisely. Somebody didn't do their homework.

It also doesn't change my opinion that a failsafe electronic registration/voting system can be designed, for a lot less that we paid Diebold or ESS or the other company.

It also doesn't change the facts about Maryland.

I'm not Republican. I just happen to agree with them on more issues than with other parties.

Bout Time

posted on Nov, 15 2004 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

If you have read any of my posts in other threads, you would see that I have consistently said that whomever designed and sold these machines should be summarily fired. But you can't lay the entire blame on Diebold, you have to blame the states that use the machines also. HAVA gives the funds, spend them wisely. Somebody didn't do their homework.

It also doesn't change my opinion that a failsafe electronic registration/voting system can be designed, for a lot less that we paid Diebold or ESS or the other company.

Awesome! We Agree! Now, my point of the DES encyption is to simply point out the obvious: it's use was an intentional flaw.
The contracts being doled out & to who ( the companies mentioned ) is another key conspirac point.

Here is a big CLUE : one of those companies was founded by a "N" state Republican senator. He sold those kiosks to his home state, right before he resigned & ran for office. His "miraculous" win was the first by a Republican in that area in over 20 years, but some how, this first timer won going away.
I don't want to get the Tinfoil hat award, and this info is out there, ........can somebody pick up this lead of choice clues I laid out?