A Question About Crop Circles

And for the love of god, please get me a list of at least five of our resident crop circle debunkers that will at least concede this phenomena is far older than the "Doug and Dave" explanation skeptics have been touting for the last 25 years.

It is time to move this debate forward or drop it all together.
Jeeze.

reply to post by JayinAR


I've posted this before but here it is again in case you're interested , old aerial survey pictures containing Crop Circles from days of old ... these are real Crop Circles , although some could be parch marks

oldcropcircles.weebly.com...

reply to post by gortex


Eeek pretty crude indeed, they haven't even tried to disguise the foot tracks in between each part of the design. Must be new teams. Its certainly not easy to do make crop circles without practice. But we have had people making them in the UK for many years now so our teams are pretty dam good at it.

I live very close to Salisbury where they are all made in the UK. The whole thing is a bit of a joke round here, but it certainly excites people abroad. lol

reply to post by gortex


Yeah, I've come across that site before.
The Doug and Dave explanation is so freakin' silly it is laughable.

But it goes to show how quickly a "skeptic" will latch onto the first thing that seems to satisfy their desire to explain the unexplainable.
People STILL cling to this explanation! I noticed it most recently while reading a debate here Skyfloating participated in. She took the pro side of the argument and the opponent opened with Doug and Dave. I thought, "oh boy, here we go."

This isn't informed skepticism, this is debunking.

reply to post by JayinAR

The Doug and Dave explanation is so freakin' silly it is laughable.

It's no longer Doug and Dave it's the disciples of Doug and Dave and they've taken it to a whole new level , the pictures in that link are either real Crop Circles or parch marks but what they aren't is messages from ET , this they have in common with today's Crop Circles / Art .

As I've said before I come from the stand point of someone who used to believe Crop Circles were creations of either Aliens or dimensional beings who share the same space as us but after looking at the subject with open eyes now realise that what we are seeing is not much different to graffiti , wholly man made .

reply to post by gortex


And of course I was trying to say "Doug and Dave being credited for the birth of the phenomena".
I figured the implication was clear.
Guess not.

reply to post by gortex


I agree Doug and Dave did a lot to make the myth popular but they cant compare in complexity to the designs people are making these days. But that's not surprising , Doug and Dave were just 2 guys , these days there are many , many teams of people doing it. Sometimes the teams come together and do group projects are are truly stunning.

I think the most famous Milk Hill project was made by 20 or more people from several teams. I what i do find surprising is just how many of these teams have now come forward and put themselves on youtube explaining how its all done. Its all very informative.

I guess with everything in the present day explained then the only thing that some one who really, really wants to believe in something paranormal/alien can do as a last resort (short of putting their fingers in their ears) is to try to claim every mark ever made in a field in the past (made by people, kids, weather, fungus, sink holes, animals etc) is connected to the pranks of present day.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by iSomeone

 

So you're ready to accept witness testimony in the bible, but not in this matter?
Cool.

As I said, weather is a good explanation for some. Not all.
What would you have, people filming empty fields at all times in hopes of catching the elusive tornado?

At any rate, as I said, this is just my opinion. I am fine disagreeing. It just gets a tad silly when folks keep hammering the same points home all the time.

Why so many in the UK?
History has shown that folks tend to behave similarly despite cultural differences. Why aren't there more American crop artists then?? We have MUCH MUCH more farmland and a FAR GREATER population.
Still yet, they are found almost EXCLUSIVELY in the UK. It makes no sense.
There is your paranormal element.
The thing about the paranormal is we can never prove it. If we could it would be called NORMAL.

So let's say they are alien messages. What are they trying to say after 40 years? Isn't it logical if there was some kind of message they are trying to communicate to us, after 40 years of us not understanding, they would try another design? Think of it this way, if we visited another planet and for 40 years we had been trying to communicate to them the same way over and over and they still didn't understand. How long within that 40 years do you think we would have scrapped our way and tried different ways? Here we are, dumb humans, thousands of years less advanced and we could even rationalize that. You don't think a highly intelligent race wouldn't figure that out as well?

How is "Why so many in the UK?" any type of evidence that these are alien created? They have been popular there and increasingly so over the years. The designs have gotten more complex as the creators have gotten better at it. As someone pointed out in another thread, that's completely in line with human beings becoming better at something with practice. Even the increasing complexity of the designs shows human characteristics. It doesn't show a paranormal element, it shows a human one.

Weather phenomenon is as silly as an answer as aliens. I can see why you would try to relate the Earthly answer, to the alien one though. I guess you think it shows rationale to your way of thinking?

reply to post by PhoenixOD


Chilbolton was my favorite , the complexity of the design and the returned message blew me away .
I really thought this was a message from them .


Those were the days

The phenomenon, if one really searches out of desire for truth, is, alas, man-made as it were.

Hoax is probably too simple a word. The circle-makers of today play with the concept of sociological myth-making and art as medium of message.

I'm in the camp, however, that the practice does, probably, evoke some high-strangeness at times. When we play with myth, myth often plays with us. At least that's what many have reported over the years.

Sorry, Jay, you know I love you but, they really all are, almost certainly, the creations of humans.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


40 years? Try hundreds of years.
I guess Doug and Dave are time travelers?


oldcropcircles.weebly.com...

st), we found a field of standing wheat considerably knocked about, not as an entirety, but in patches forming, as viewed from a distance, circular spots.

Examined more closely, these all presented much the same character, viz., a few standing stalks as a center, some prostrate stalks with their heads arranged pretty evenly in a direction forming a circle round the centre, and outside these a circular wall of stalks which had not suffered.

reply to post by The GUT


OK.
And my retort is just above. An account from a meteorological journal from 1880. Note the description. Standing stalks in the center of a flattened circle.

Again, from the UK.
People can ignore this aspect all they want, but this evidence is undeniable to me.

Well, I'm going to answer the dang question and not debate the reality of them. The question was why are there no lines between the designs? This implies that because they are all connected together that it must be hoaxed to provide a means for the hoaxers to hide their footprints. This is kind of misleading though, because the designs themselves are disconnected from other areas, and there are few crop fields not planted in rows anymore because it's all automated with seeding machines.

But lets assume for a second that a field was seeded randomly and that there were no visible tractor lines for the hoaxers to walk through. In that case, the design itself is disconnected from the edges of the field. It really doesn't matter if the design itself has elements that are disconnected, the design is disconnected from the outside of the field.

Maybe they're hoaxed, maybe not. You'd think someone would have seen something when the crop circle of the alien holding the CD was created with an actual coded message. It probably wasn't done in one night. I think there is something going on. This phenomenon didn't start with the UFO craze, it was going on long before, and there are too many for them all to be hoaxed. I don't really care though one way of the other.

Originally posted by gortex
reply to post by PhoenixOD

 

Chilbolton was my favorite , the complexity of the design and the returned message blew me away .
I really thought this was a message from them .

Those were the days

Yeah that one had "cereologists" hopping up and down with excitement. Notice the (c) by Lucy Pringle the cheek of her to claim copyright over someone else's hard work. That woman has no shame when it come to cash.

The world would be a far more interesting place if it was all paranormal/alien farmer hating artists working their magic in the dead of night. But unfortunately the reality is far duller.

I remember as a child when i thought that some magicians really could do magic tricks. But then i learnt how much of it was done myself. I still couldn't tell you how every magic trick ive ever seen can be done, but that doesn't make me think for one min that the people doing them are real magicians with powers.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by Ectoplasm8

 

40 years? Try hundreds of years.
I guess Doug and Dave are time travelers?


oldcropcircles.weebly.com...

st), we found a field of standing wheat considerably knocked about, not as an entirety, but in patches forming, as viewed from a distance, circular spots.

Examined more closely, these all presented much the same character, viz., a few standing stalks as a center, some prostrate stalks with their heads arranged pretty evenly in a direction forming a circle round the centre, and outside these a circular wall of stalks which had not suffered.

edit on 17-8-2013 by JayinAR because: (no reason given)

I'm speaking about the popularity boom of crop circles and the increasing complexity. Not pressed down grass from 100 years ago. Weather isn't going to create crisp circular lines and formations of consistent patterns. Neither are "alien messages".

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


It definitely appears that weather plays a role in some of these older accounts.

In that same link there was another case from the 50s or 60s describing elliptical patterns of downed wheat. The wheat had fallen in a spiral pattern.

Pretty complex. Old.

Originally posted by JayinAR
In that same link there was another case from the 50s or 60s describing elliptical patterns of downed wheat. The wheat had fallen in a spiral pattern.

Pretty complex. Old.

Probably not much doubt that some freak of weather could create a spiral pattern. The "Gray" in the pics above, though....?

How do you explain the increasing complexity? They seem to be getting "better" at it at about the same-rate as various groups of artists might since the late 70's early 80's as far as the modern circles go. Jus' sayin'.

Well we know that Doug and Dave only did a couple of circles and they were crude at that. They lacked understanding of complex mathematical and geometrical and historical concepts. We know that there are really good human crop makers. We know that crop circles go back centuries so we know that Doug and Dave were not alive in the middle ages.

There are valid questions with crop circles though. They are as follows: Why do some of them seem to be made by geniuses. I forget some examples, but the one that completed or proved a mathematical theorem that had never been proved before, besides in that one crop circle. Why would someone do that and then never claim responsibility? Why are there magnetic anomalies? Why do there seem to be anomalies in some pertaining to nodes and other things but not in others? Why do some of them appear within a matter of hours, but even the best crop circle makers can't make them within that time period if at all? Why do, at least in England, black military helicopters appear at the scene of some of them? Why would the British military care about a crop circle? Why was there, seemingly, a pretty strong disinformation campaign in regard to crop circles and centered around Doug and Dave? Why do many, if not all, of the, so called, genuine crop circles appear over aquifers and such?

As you can see, there are some good questions and some research/investigation that needs to be done here.

It's laughable when someone says, "They're all manmade you idiots!" or some such ludicrous post here. I never in the post said it was aliens, but, that it needs to be looked into.

If it was aliens made some of them, as I once believed...then my question was...why so subtle? why take so long to ramp up to the next level of communication with us if that was the plan? For the true believers, those are the valid questions. Maybe though, if we are dealing with an alien civilization that is billions of years more advanced than us, this is the best way and timeframe to communicate with us? Or then again, Maybe it's only humans making these things. But that answer brings up the first list of questions, which still baffles me to no end.

Eh?

reply to post by The GUT


I never said humans aren't also making them. That would be silly.
In the link above there is ALSO a report of, "six adjacent circles, nearly touching, in a straight line as if drawn with a COMPASS. Four are larger than the last two. The four larger ones are the size of a room". That account was from 1904.

So unless humans been out hoaxing this crap for hundreds of years, there is more at play here.

ETA: and again, the skeptical notion that this started with D&D is absurd.
But people won't admit that because it has been the backbone of the skeptic position these 30 years.

Originally posted by JayinAR
ETA: and again, the skeptical notion that this started with D&D is absurd.
But people won't admit that because it has been the backbone of the skeptic position these 30 years.

Doug & Dave certainly aren't the "final answer," I agree. They probably deserve a lil' respect though...in a "classics of mischeviousness" way, though. Although I generally loath those that attempt to play with our socio-psyches.

If we say, for a moment, that some of the early "circles" were freaks of nature then where does that really leave us with the proliferation of the modern human connection?

If we discard those that are man-made, then what do we really have that we can attach much, if any, importance too?