Race. We must talk about it, but we can't. Help, please?

Originally posted by SilentKillah

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by spacedog1973

 

it only until the hardcore racists die off that the progress that younger generations have made in respect of racism can develop unspoiled by the cynical, ignorant and petty mindset of racists.

What progress made by the younger generations??

Haven’t you been reading the thread? Apparently things are terrible now! There hasn’t been a significant improvement since the civil rights movement. Racism is running rampant and affecting tens of millions!!

You're exactly right when I can't read a Trayvon Martin thread without someone saying "that thug deserved it". Many white teenagers own guns. Many white teenagers smoke the natural herbs of the land. Many white teenagers make threats toward other teenagers. Are they thugs too?????

Yes. I'm surrounded by white, third generation foodstampers, and I have "f#ck blacks" written on the side of my house for asking them not to use a racial slur when loudly referring to each other as they shout down the street. God forbid they get off their porches and walk down and speak to each other in a humane fashion.
My catalytic converter was stolen by the kid down the street, who stupidly left his tools at the crime scene, which were worth more than the converter, and OD'ed on the money- now HE deserved it.

The same people that graffiti'ed my house listen to rap and act in a "Steppin' Fetchit" fashion, and wear their britches low, which is a stereotypical caricature meant to appeal to idiotic whites. They aren't being 'black', not the AfAms that I know anyway. They are white people being a farce- JRoq on "Trailer Park Boys"- a minstrel show. At least TPB has the sense of humor to point out the idiocy of it.
They are being the cartoon that MTV and reality shows push that stereotype to appease the stupid masses. I find it insulting. I find that behavior more insulting then the epithets they used.


All people's are going the have that percentage of horrible people no matter the race. We all have bad apples. The sad thing is that the bad apples are always the ones that draw attention to themselves. I've noticed the news media always zeroes in on the most hysterical clown, instead of someone with a reasonable point of view.

Originally posted by SilentKillah
don't be so upset that the house around the corner opened up section 8 housing!

I didn't do anything wrong though. Why should I be subjected to a decreased property value and subsidize someone else's housing when it's hard enough to pay for my own?

Can you at least admit that you can see why this rightfully irritates people?

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by SilentKillah

 

I think to say "many white teenagers", when used as a juxtaposition in the way you are, is a completely invalid statement.

if we are to talk about individuals, then it must be individuals we discuss.

All that aside, however, I agree. Treyvon Martin likely was not a "thug".

Understood... I can rephrase that better. Let me change that to say that I've seen white teenagers post pictures of their guns on facebook and twitter. I've also seen pictures posted of herb plants and baggies. Lastly, teenagers make threats and get into fights because they are hormonal and lack proper self judgement skills... not because of their race.

I hope that sounds better and less offensive as I surely didn't mean to portray that. I apologize.

Originally posted by FuZe7

Originally posted by SilentKillah
don't be so upset that the house around the corner opened up section 8 housing!

I didn't do anything wrong though. Why should I be subjected to a decreased property value and subsidize someone else's housing when it's hard enough to pay for my own?

Can you at least admit that you can see why this rightfully irritates people?

I said that in response to breaking down the segregated barriers of communities. A rental home being classified as section 8 does not decrease your property value. It's the upkeep to the property that does.

I lived in a neighborhood with a home owners association previous to where I currently live... best neighborhood within 50 miles of the area. Everyone wanted to live there, but there were rarely houses for sale... soon as one is up, it's off the market. Owner down the street (military family) recently purchased a house, got orders and had to leave. Didn't want to sell because there would be no profit. Put it up for rent... 6 months no takers... rent too expensive for anyone. People would buy for that rent price. Home owners association allowed section 8, a family moved right in. Owners decided to contract landscaping service for the people living there in fear that they wouldn't keep up.

New family's wife started going to the community meetings, reading the association bylaws, and making complaints about every person on our street's property. Didn't even own the property, but treated it like theirs. I got a complaint because my trashcan was on the side of the house. Block captain got a complaint about a bird house in the front yard. The State Trooper kept a van in his back yard that was visible when you walk by the house... complaint. Every week... complaint, complaint, complaint... from a section 8 house renter. Once we got to the bylaws, she started going over to the next block complaining. It got so annoying that people were complaining to the President that the bylaws needed to be changed. That's when I moved and bought land... don't want to deal with that type of mess.

Stereotypes again...

reply to post by SilentKillah

Good question here. Please realize that the only thing that I am looking for an outcome the profiling of black people just because you (generally... not specifically you but ones self) don't feel like they belong.

So you believe if profiling stopped there would be no racial issues in America? I doubt it!

Profiling is simply one of MANY crime fighting tools. Serial killers are profiled and guess what....it's usually a white guy! I'm not offended!! Profiling is not done because people are scared or racist or don’t want blacks in the area. They profile to narrow down suspects. If you’re looking for someone who committed an assault, chances are you have a profile in mind based on many factors. A young guy in a hoodie walking in a neighborhood at night in a high crime area is a bit suspicious. An old lady in a wheel chair certainly wouldn’t fit the profile, right?

The problem isn’t profiling IMO. The problems are the many misconceptions about profiling.

It's not like it's everyone though. It seems that what I'd imagine to be uncultured white people, possibly Fox news watchers have this vision that if you walk through the "hood" you will be robbed and killed. No... my mother in law lives in what many here would look at as the "hood" or "ghetto". Duplex houses along the road, liquor store right around the corner from the houses... typical movie hood scene.

FOX News watchers?

You seem to be stereotyping a little bit there, friend. Just say what you mean. Conservative white people are the root of racial problems, right?

Back here in reality, it seems the loudest crybabies who are always complaining about racial issues are liberals on ABC, NBC, CBS, etc who want to capitalize on racial division.

Let me tell you that these typical, proper engligh talking, white college kids in DC don't care... they live there too!!! They walk past "thugs" every single day... never robbed.

Never robbed?

Urban areas are hotbeds for crime. The ghettos aren’t found in rural America.

White next door neighbors to my mother in law... married couple with a 3 year old daughter. Another older white lady walks her little dog to the corner and talks to the "thugs"... said a joke or something one day because I heard them bust out laughing and give her a high 5. I mean, it's not a LOT of white people there or anything, but it's enough to notice when they're drunk coming back from wherever and you can hear them talking loud and yelling while walking down the street at 2AM. They're not worried... and I LOVE to see that!

Those people are doing exactly what I advocate; they’re living color blind. They’re not the one’s profiling. You’ve proven my point. If you live and let live and stop trying to find a racial element in everything, people tend to get along fine. Why can’t we do that nationally??? We can’t because a certain group keeps stoking the flames for personal or political gain. Those doing this certainly aren’t FOX News watchers.

Then you have the majority of white... the uncultured ones outside of that area that seem to think that black people are some type of animal predators out to get every white person in their territory.

I suggest opening your mind, stop being terrified of black "thugs", and don't follow every one of them like a suspect because you don't know them and think they don't belong.

I’m not terrified of anyone. I can get along just fine with anybody until they give me a reason not to. Either way, I wouldn't be terrified.

reply to post by TheCounselor
I take my little dog to the local park for a walk almost everyday. Almost everyday I see black kids and white kids playing together. The older white boy giving the little black girl a push on the swing. She looks back and says "Stop, I want my mom to do it!". I was sitting on the ground leaning against the tree and saw these 5 to 13 year olds playing on the equipment. There were no racial slurs. There was no anger expressed over Martin vs Zimmerman. They were helping each other on the monkey bars and taking turns on the slide and laughing and screaming and having a good time. They didn't even seem to notice that some were white and some were black. Whoever screws this up as we get older should be shot! Let's stop shooting each other and start playing and working with each other. Let's stop expecting someone to lift us up on the equipment and start climbing all by ourselves. Let's be more like our kids and learn from them.

reply to post by MrFGB


Wonderful post and great observation!!

If we could just stop looking for a racial component in every situation and stop making excuses we could get past this issue.

reply to post by MrFGB

To achieve what you have, we have to break a lot of glass jars full of preconceptions. That takes a lot of face to face interaction and sharing.
Segregation is still happening, whether the leaders of the community mean it or not. There's a documentary on the Pruitt- Igoe urban housing project in St. Louis (available on Netflix). To me, with my white eyes, I saw a concentration camp. Did the company that erected this compound genuinely mean to help lower income families, or was it just reverse gerrymandering? Wait til you get to the part where fathers couldn't live in the same apartment with their kids. You'll gag.

Originally posted by SilentKillah

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by Tiger5
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

BFT,

Ya know you have completely missed the point. I asked you to consider what a group of black professional experiences of racism are. The thing about being black is the high visibility factor. You could have two Phdss and be a CEO you are black therefore there is an instantaneous automatic set of assumptions that kick in within the first 30 seconds of contact. This mythical black man with the 2 PHds is probably judged and found lacking BEFORE he can even blurt out “I got 2 Phds”. This is what happened with Zimmerman.

A black man with 2Phds probably doesn't dress like a gangster, while standing in the rain and profiling homes to see whats the best opportunity to break in and steal from. He dresses appropriately, speaks appropriately, and conducts himself appropriately.

Hot air and irrellevant!

Oh... really... dressed like TM? I may not have a PhD YET, but I am in a Doctorate program in Management and have MS degrees in Program Management and Software Engineering. I've already stated in this thread... on a chilly night, you better BET I'll be standing outside smoking a cigarette dressed JUST like TM. You think I'm going to put on a suit to step outside and smoke??? And yes... I do smoke in the rain. Most nicotine addicts do. Oh... and if I'm running low on cigs, why would I drive to a store right around the corner? I'd smoke one walking there, and another walking home! You'd profile me knowing NOTHING about me. Just because I wore a hoody to cover my head from the rain and cold while walking to the store. How ignorant is that... really?

Well some people are weird like that I guess. Wearing baggy clothes and walking in the rain with PhDs in their portofolio. All while smoking a cigarrete that does not get put out. Just to get a little excercise I suppose and save on gasoline costs.

Like someone said just don't attack the neigbhorhood watchmen or they might have to use their legally carrying gun on you for self-defense if you are too strong for them.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by SilentKillah

 

So you believe if profiling stopped there would be no racial issues in America? I doubt it!

No. I'm saying that would satisfy me.

Profiling is simply one of MANY crime fighting tools. Serial killers are profiled and guess what....it's usually a white guy! I'm not offended!! Profiling is not done because people are scared or racist or don’t want blacks in the area. They profile to narrow down suspects. If you’re looking for someone who committed an assault, chances are you have a profile in mind based on many factors. A young guy in a hoodie walking in a neighborhood at night in a high crime area is a bit suspicious. An old lady in a wheel chair certainly wouldn’t fit the profile, right?

The problem isn’t profiling IMO. The problems are the many misconceptions about profiling.

If I happen to observe something real, I call the authorities. I won't see someone looking suspicios, follow them, and tell the cops where they went. I say "I saw this person here and they walked down there and turned that way". Not try to see where they are going. The cops can be the detectives... that's their job. Martin wouldn't have been killed if someone let the proper people do their job.

My problem is not observing criminal actions... it's the thought that "If one looks this way, s/he is likely a thug or gangster".

FOX News watchers?

You seem to be stereotyping a little bit there, friend. Just say what you mean. Conservative white people are the root of racial problems, right?

Back here in reality, it seems the loudest crybabies who are always complaining about racial issues are liberals on ABC, NBC, CBS, etc who want to capitalize on racial division.

It's not just white people that watch Fox News you know. My brother works in what they call the good area of Maryland (Calvert County)... I mentioned he's a doctor. He told me fairly recently of a black woman that he treats who said she will not stop while driving through DC because Fox News sayd it's a bad area. She said she got a flat on I-295 in DC and rode on her flat until she crossed into VA off of I-95 (almost 15 miles) because she'll get robbed if she called a tow truck and waited 15 minutes.

Never robbed?

Urban areas are hotbeds for crime. The ghettos aren’t found in rural America.

Agreed... but so are the suburbs. Ghetto's aren't the only place with high crime rate. It's only higher because the population is much higher.

Those people are doing exactly what I advocate; they’re living color blind. They’re not the one’s profiling. You’ve proven my point. If you live and let live and stop trying to find a racial element in everything, people tend to get along fine. Why can’t we do that nationally??? We can’t because a certain group keeps stoking the flames for personal or political gain. Those doing this certainly aren’t FOX News watchers.

Good... you and I can agree about this.

These people are definitely not Fox News watchers.

I’m not terrified of anyone. I can get along just fine with anybody until they give me a reason not to. Either way, I wouldn't be terrified.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by SilentKillah

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by Tiger5
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

BFT,

Ya know you have completely missed the point. I asked you to consider what a group of black professional experiences of racism are. The thing about being black is the high visibility factor. You could have two Phdss and be a CEO you are black therefore there is an instantaneous automatic set of assumptions that kick in within the first 30 seconds of contact. This mythical black man with the 2 PHds is probably judged and found lacking BEFORE he can even blurt out “I got 2 Phds”. This is what happened with Zimmerman.

A black man with 2Phds probably doesn't dress like a gangster, while standing in the rain and profiling homes to see whats the best opportunity to break in and steal from. He dresses appropriately, speaks appropriately, and conducts himself appropriately.

Hot air and irrellevant!

Oh... really... dressed like TM? I may not have a PhD YET, but I am in a Doctorate program in Management and have MS degrees in Program Management and Software Engineering. I've already stated in this thread... on a chilly night, you better BET I'll be standing outside smoking a cigarette dressed JUST like TM. You think I'm going to put on a suit to step outside and smoke??? And yes... I do smoke in the rain. Most nicotine addicts do. Oh... and if I'm running low on cigs, why would I drive to a store right around the corner? I'd smoke one walking there, and another walking home! You'd profile me knowing NOTHING about me. Just because I wore a hoody to cover my head from the rain and cold while walking to the store. How ignorant is that... really?

Well some people are weird like that I guess. Wearing baggy clothes and walking in the rain with PhDs in their portofolio. All while smoking a cigarrete that does not get put out. Just to get a little excercise I suppose and save on gasoline costs.

Like someone said just don't attack the neigbhorhood watchmen or they might have to use their legally carrying gun on you for self-defense if you are too strong for them.

Why would I carry a degree on me... makes no since. I've never had to take it out of my house.

You're obviously not a smoker to think that light rain will put a cigarette out.

I don't walk to save gas... I walk so I can smoke. I don't smoke in my car or in the house... I have kids that don't need their lung destroyed.

You're right... they just might use their gun for murder. It's sad that you think that's some kind of joke.

reply to post by SilentKillah


Beg your pardon but WHERE did I say murder?

Self-defense is not murder.

Lets just say the weirder you are, then the more you stand out, and the higher the probability that some concerned citizen will think you are suspicious and follow you.

1+1=2?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Dear Benevolent Heretic,

I absolutely promise to look at that thread. Two things have to come first, though. At the start of this thread, and for many pages, the posters were absolutely superb. They were thoughtful, respectful, and serious. You could tell that everyone was exploring their own minds and attitudes. I was delighted to be a part of it. I think slayer69 said something like, "Conversations like this are why I come to ATS."

But what some may not realize is that participating in a discussion at this level is really work. One has to explore new ideas, think about them, test them, then find a way to express them clearly and without causing offense. It's tough, not every poster can do it, and I don't think anyone can do it for long.

Some posters aren't used to, or able to, perform that kind of work so they fall back on slogans and arguments expressed by dozens of other people. It makes it look, on the surface, that they are participating but they're really not.

For whatever reason, this thread has attracted some of the true thinkers of ATS, and I'm humbled to see their work. Slayer69 was absolutely right. At it's best, ATS is invaluable.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm really grateful that you find me someone you can talk with, I'd hate to miss out on our conversations. You've got a fine mind. We often come to different conclusions, but I welcome that. If all I ever know is what's in my own head and experience, then I'm pretty ignorant. Thank you for still talking with me.

I haven't read the rest of the thread, and I may be proven wrong, but I'm thinking most of the posts are defending and "proving" their opinions and positions instead of listening and hearing those of others. There's probably lots of blame and insults thrown around and it's probably a lot of white people patting each other on the back (with stars) for having the whole thing figured out. And it's probably sadly lacking in compassion and empathy for ANYONE who has been discriminated against and lacking also in respect for fellow posters.

For most of the thread, I don't think it's been like that. I've been away from the thread for more than I'd like, but I saw many positive things.

I think a lot of the feeling is that racism exists on both sides. There was discussion on how we could break the cycle of it. I was really impressed by ProfEmeritus's suggestion that we focus on shared interests. We also commented on the lack of racism in the very young.

One common complaint was affirmative action, and how it was even recognized as discrimination by some. There was the idea that a discussion had to be more or less on equal terms, and not one side lecturing another. In short there was some real honesty and thought expressed here.

I think the person you quoted probably meant that the discussion will happen in this country: In the media, the government, the town halls of our cities and on TV specials. It will happen between friends around kitchen tables and in church meetings. But I doubt they meant it would happen here on ATS.

You may be right, I don't know what was in the person's head. It seemed to me that it was a little more angry, a little more "You Whites are going to have to listen to the non-Whites. You need to be told what they want, why they want it, and you have to accept your guilt and pay for it." As I say, I'm guessing, but it sounded like that.

But I'll get right to the thread you've linked, thanks.

With respect,
Charles1952

P.s I've just looked through the last couple of pages. It is getting a little warm, isn't it? - C -

reply to post by SilentKillah

He told me fairly recently of a black woman that he treats who said she will not stop while driving through DC because Fox News sayd it's a bad area. She said she got a flat on I-295 in DC and rode on her flat until she crossed into VA off of I-95 (almost 15 miles) because she'll get robbed if she called a tow truck and waited 15 minutes.

I drove home on a flat tire once in the middle of the night because I didn't have a jack, but to be honest I was more worried about bears attacking me than robbers. A "Bad Area" can mean a lot of different things.

Fear is one thing. Resenting what makes us afraid is another.

reply to post by SilentKillah


Keep in mind that you and I don't know each other. So "feeling out" what the other person really means is important in this discussion.

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by SilentKillah

 

He told me fairly recently of a black woman that he treats who said she will not stop while driving through DC because Fox News sayd it's a bad area. She said she got a flat on I-295 in DC and rode on her flat until she crossed into VA off of I-95 (almost 15 miles) because she'll get robbed if she called a tow truck and waited 15 minutes.

I drove home on a flat tire once in the middle of the night because I didn't have a jack, but to be honest I was more worried about bears attacking me than robbers. A "Bad Area" can mean a lot of different things.

Fear is one thing. Resenting what makes us afraid is another.

Gotcha on that note. However, I'd be more worried about the money I'd have to pay to replace the messed up rim than bears if I sit in the car and wait for a tow truck. But that's just differences in the way people think... not new sources filling your head with nonsense.

reply to post by SilentKillah


That's an interesting story, but it's definitely not the norm.

I'm a landlord (a good one), I know first hand how bad it is. Everyone here who has any experience with Section 8 knows what a drain it is on the entire community. These people have no investment in where they live, or their neighbors, so they generally just don't give a #.

I feel most sorry for old people that moved into what was a nice neighborhood in the 1950s or 60s, they end up never moving away and being surrounded by people who throw trash all over their yards, don't mow the grass, have loud cars that leak oil everywhere and blare their stereos at all hours.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Very true. It's difficult trying to keep calm whem you have people like Earth and Fuze seeming like they're deliberately trying to provoke a situation with their comments however. Sea... although him and I differ on the subject has at lease seemed like s/he's trying to hear me. But I still believe the statement that you can't understand until you truly walk in a black person's shoes. Until you have someone tell you face to face... someone that might end up working for you... that they would follow you if you dress like someone because it's comfortable, you'd never know how it feels. It's like saying that you understand why a woman would stay with a man that beats her and then turning around to a friend and saying she's retarded for staying with him. It's something men will never understand because the emotions and treatment are different.

But I think this is the last post I'm making in this thread... it just hurts to see how I can't make a difference to the minds of some people. I'm just glad to leave on a somewhat positive note with this message.

reply to post by TheCounselor


Concentration Camp? Someone rounded these people up in the middle of the night, and forced them to move there?




Beggars can't be choosers I guess...

P.S. I'm going to watch the documentary later.