What if Jesus is the DECEPTION?

reply to post by Akragon

that is an interesting idea... considering a third of the world is Christian yet there is a "narrow path"

Could you explain a little further?

I think your post shows that you already understand it.
I was trying in an earlier post to show all the jumps in "logic" involved in arriving at this statement that the Free Grace cultists proclaim as fact.
This means that you have to have a certain amount of intelligence just to understand the theory, and once you "get" it, then what good did all that do? Well, none, except this feeling of self satisfaction that you can "figure" it out, as if stupid people are all going to Hell because they can't understand whatever it is that makes them "saved".
Anyone who wants to ultimately be able to stand judgment needs to actually live a righteous life, rather than a head full of theological formulas.
I also posted an example of the difference between the literal Greek and what it ends up being translated into to support "accepted" theology.

reply to post by jmdewey60


This is why I take issue with pauls idea of free grace...

Faith alone, free from work...

reply to post by Akragon

This is why I take issue with paul's idea of free grace...

Faith alone, free from work...

When he says "works" he means the showy "Jewish" things that the Mosaic Law has in it that don't actually help anyone else, just your own pride in a false religiosity.
Also you are probably looking at bad translations like the KJV that says that the "free gift of God is eternal life", where there are actually better Greek words that could have been used that literally mean "free" and "gift" which were not used by Paul, so he really meant something else, such as, that God has something better to offer, that he can actually deliver, which Satan has no power to give.

reply to post by Akragon


I'm not sure that Paul says it is free .Where did he elude to that . He says works with out faith is dead and if your faithful works will follow . I do know that John 15 explains that God is the husband man and prunes the vine . John 15 puts a kink in the saying "once saved always saved " because God the Father makes that distinction . I have noticed that people make their profession of Faith , get baptized and you never see them again . They return to their previous life thinking they are saved for ever . Jesus will say" leave me for I never knew you " if you don't abide with him . Being a Christian is not some haven from the realities of life or from sin as some suppose . It would be easier to hide in a bottle and go with the flow .

reply to post by SimonPeter


26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So which law is he referring to?

IF it is this love which paul proclaims... wouldn't that be incorrect?

reply to post by Akragon

So which law is he referring to?

You also have to take into consideration what the word "justified" means. The definition is distorted by the Free Grace cultists because they define it as a legal declaration, where some hypothetical court pronounces a person to be "just".
The way Paul is using the word is to mean a process of becoming "just" or righteous, by following a certain course of action, and here he is asking, in relation to the context of jews vs. gentiles, is it the old written Mosaic Code, or is it the law of faith that we have received from Jesus?

reply to post by Akragon


When you read the chapter you see that Paul was dealing with the Jewish practices that had been interjected into the Christian faith . The Jewish were fighting hard against the Gospel of Christ and still are through the ACLU and the Protocols .
Paul said not of works of the Law which would be still following the Law. He did not exclude works or the evidence of your Faith which should be evident in you life . Paul said it when he wrote in Romans 11 verse 28 As concerning the Gospel ,they are enemies for your sakes, but as touching the election, they are beloved for the Fathers sakes . And nothing has changed .

reply to post by jmdewey60


I only seem to remember 2 laws Jesus gave...

There was 613 laws in the OT...

I have hope, you all are understanding. Wonderful last few posts. Smiling, all you have to do is recognize the other heresies are lies too. Check off Sola Fide, it is a start.

I'll miss some but here are some heresies to ditch. Funny, no good, Jesus is speaking to a non-Catholic prophet, giving corrections, teaching messages to help our brothers and sisters lose the heresies. I can say, the most difficult one is "faith alone." The messenger, Kevin Barrett keeps hearing over from Our Lord, you are not saved by belief in My name only. Check Kevin's website. hearhisheart.wordpress.com...

Look to the left for older messages, they cover these heresies, ones I noticed.

faith alone
prosperity gospel
rapture lie
imputation, Jesus did it all on the cross, you are saved

I haven't seen Our Lord's words on the lie of Sola Scriptura. Maybe, it would be too upsetting, that is something
for the "awakening" (Rev 6:15-17, 1 Cor 3:13).


God bless you guys,

colbe

Originally posted by Rex282
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

You know neither the scriptures nor the power of God.
*snip*
It is YOU that don't know the scriptures or Yahoshua
*snip*


Pfffftttt! You have no idea about my salvation, nor what I believe. I disagree with you ,and that threatens you in some way, so you resort to lame personal attacks? No valid argument, eh?

You failed to address a single point I made. Go back, reread, and try again, or be ignored. I have better things to do.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
It is not Biblical that every sin requires that a person be put to death.
One example of someone not being killed for his sin is the murder of Abel by Cain, where is was actually a crime to kill him even thought it was known that he was guilty of murder.
So you are just making something up and then just saying it is "biblical", without giving any example from the Bible to show that is the case.

Jesus, being God, died to pay the penalty for ALL sins, past, present, and future.

It nowhere says that in the Bible.
There is an Old Testament verse that says that sort of idea of substitutionary death does not work,
Ezekiel 18:20
The one who sins is the one who will die.

edit on 13-7-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

If you want to disagree with the Word of God, that's between you and Him. This isn't about us putting anyone to death, but about eternal death. These are not the same thing.

1 Peter 3:18 - "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 - "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Here is a pretty good study, from what I have read of it, with more details on this:

link

It's just a long page, with good references.

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit? This is important.

Mat. 12:31 says, “Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.”

It's said that if you Blasphemy against the Father or the Son it can be forgiven, but not the Spirit. This leads me
to think that the Father and the Son are manifestations of the Spirit and they are all essentially one with the Spirit being the omnipresent force of the universe.

People worship Jesus because it's believed that He was a human version of the Spirit and he was filled with it. By worshipping and believing in him, you are essentially worshipping and believing in the Spirit since all things were done in the name of the Spirit. Hope this makes sense.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

If you want to disagree with the Word of God, that's between you and Him.

Paul was comparing what the system of sin had to offer with what the system set up by God had to offer. He was not comparing debt with "payment" since both were about what you got, and not about what you somehow owe the system.

This isn't about us putting anyone to death, but about eternal death. These are not the same thing.

You were giving the Old Testament as an example. Where does it talk about eternal life in there?
Those verses you quoted mention nothing about Jesus dying in order to pay a sin debt, or that his death was directly responsible for us not now having to die.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by SimonPeter

 

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So which law is he referring to?

IF it is this love which paul proclaims...  wouldn't that be incorrect?

Romans 3 discusses the Mosaic law. V29 Or is God the God of Jews only?

20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. It is a schoolmaster. 

The Mosaic laws purpose was to make Israel conscious of sin. It was for lawbreakers just as laws today are the same. Do not murder is applicable to murderers, not to those whose have no desire to murder in their nature. Speed limits are of no consequence to slow, safe and speedy drivers, but rather they are there for speeders.

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

The law makes man conscious of sin and it is the strength of sin at the same time. Man, when he sins either attempts to cover the resulting guilt with fig leaves (works) or is led to saving faith in Jesus Christ. Works of men include what we see in all the religions on the planet - rules and regulations, cutting oneself, rosaries and repetitive praying, not eating this or that, going to church every Saturday or Sunday,  thinking that if "I'm a good person", charity work, killing the righteous who remind them of that guilt.....all done in an attempt to remove that sense of guilt. These are fig leaves. 

Jesus found a religion in Judea - a religion based upon works which could not see that the Mosaic law and scripture were but a shadow of the reality. Their law made them conscious of sin and instead of their guilt leading them to trust in God for His righteousness they merely did what Adam and Eve did - fashioned fig leaves and hid from Him. They would not turn to Him but rather they turned to themselves. 

The righteousness of God was revealed to the world
21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in (through the faithfulness OF) Jesus Christ to all who believe. Works of the law are not of faith because it is SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Self righteousness are fig leaves, an attempt by man to cover his nakedness and shame which law makes them conscious of....and in this section of Romans it is made clear that the righteousness of God was finally made known to man. It's revealing is the gospel - the power of God into salvation. The only name given under Heaven by which we must be saved. No more self righteousness. Only His righteousness shall save man. Yahushua means "God saves". In which case, man is excluded even in the meaning of His name. Jesus was the righteousness of God walking this Earth, and the very people of Judea killed that righteousness. 

But there is an even more important law which Paul addresses elsewhere - the law of sin and death. The power/strength of sin is the law. The sting of sin is death. When did the serpent pop up in the garden of Eden? After the issuance of the command 'Do not eat'. Once a command or law is given, an inner principal becomes activated, one that questions that command and leads many to break it. Do not sniff glue because even with one inhalation can you die.  Why then are so many doing it? By placing it off limits through a law, the 'serpent' is given strength to entice one to sniff...it is made attractive and appeals are made which many find irresistible ...the promise of how good the high will feel. The law itself 'do not sniff glue' is good, just as the command in the garden was good. But it has the same consequences. Scripture shows us the same with Israel and the Mosaic law. It was given to disobedient people, who almost exclusively fell when enticed by the 'law of sin and death' to break every part of it. For ears to hear, it was given so that transgressions would INCREASE. The Mosaic law cannot give life to sinners or save them from their sins. The law, which promises life, in the hand of sinners, leads to death.. Why? Carnal man and his carnal mind and flesh cannot obey the law of God because it's ruled by the serpent. Jesus came for sinners, and just as He did, we must crucify the flesh nature, the man of sin. Jesus Christ is the source of life, and through the very Spirit of God which is greater than the spirit of the world, we overcome. The Tree of Life neither condemned nor accused, but rather it heals the nations[/b

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

........................................

Pfffftttt! You have no idea about my salvation, nor what I believe. I disagree with you ,and that threatens you in some way, so you resort to lame personal attacks? No valid argument, eh?

You failed to address a single point I made. Go back, reread, and try again, or be ignored. I have better things to do.

You have not made any valid points and that is why I did not address them.You can't even stay on point .You just quoted scripture and acted like it means something.Why should I explain t to you what the wages of death are when you can't even explain it.All you have done is quote scripture and church doctrine.That is not making making valid points to be answered.

I said you know nothing of the scriptures or God and that is true.That is not a personal attack.Your statements in this thread are proof you are the one who attacks.I have no desire to do that at all.You are ignorant of the scriptures and don't know God and that is very apparent by the foolish things you write.That is a true statement and that's all it is.

The only thing I said of salvation is Yahoshua.The savior of ALL mankind..even including you who don't know God yet you say I question your salvation.I am not the one condemning anyone to eternal hell.I completely understand your frustration.You are very wrong and it is the only thing you can do to defend yourself and your wrong beliefs.However if you can't restrain yourself and have a rational conversation without pfffts and moaning and groaning and false accusations and childish sarcasms and quoting scriptures you know nothing about Please do ignore me as I will ignore you.

reply to post by Jennym964



Firstly, Welcome to ATS…

Originally posted by Jennym964
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit? This is important.

Mat. 12:31 says, “Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.”

It's said that if you Blasphemy against the Father or the Son it can be forgiven, but not the Spirit. This leads me
to think that the Father and the Son are manifestations of the Spirit and they are all essentially one with the Spirit being the omnipresent force of the universe.

And Secondly, Yes!, your onto it, and have found a truth that few seem to find IMO. My personal belief is that Jesus and the Father, are Co-creators of everything, through the Spirit. And there are many clues that point to this truth in the OT.

The Father + Jesus = The Holy Spirit

Originally posted by Jennym964
People worship Jesus because it's believed that He was a human version of the Spirit and he was filled with it. By worshipping and believing in him, you are essentially worshipping and believing in the Spirit since all things were done in the name of the Spirit. Hope this makes sense.

Yes, it makes perfect sense…

- JC

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

unless you believe in salvation by "correct" doctrine, which to me is the mark of the beast.

that is an interesting idea... considering a third of the world is Christian yet there is a "narrow path"
Could you explain a little further?

The beast is tethered or being led by someone/something out of correct/normal seasonal pasture. What is painted on either side in large letters white; "COW" (Deer season in Wisconsin. hunting variety).

reply to post by WhoKnows100


The Commandments given to man was not the LAW . The LAW was the Judean faith and practices to atone for sin through sacrifices . Paul is saying that the old testament sacrificing for sin does not apply to Christianity because the acceptable sacrifice for sin made by Jesus did away with the rituals of the law .

reply to post by SimonPeter

The Commandments given to man was not the LAW . The LAW was the Judean faith and practices to atone for sin through sacrifices . Paul is saying that the old testament sacrificing for sin does not apply to Christianity because the acceptable sacrifice for sin made by Jesus did away with the rituals of the law .

I still don't understand why sacrifices are necessary to atone for sins. Like, an act of violence is needed to atone for an act of violence? Why not one act of selfless kindness for every sin committed? That's not a sacrifice, that's a public service.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

....and in this section of Romans it is made clear that the righteousness of God was finally made known to man. It's revealing is the gospel - the power of God into salvation.

Paul was literally talking about God's righteousness, not a figurative righteousness that is godly that we can somehow acquire, but is answering the question of if God is a just judge, or is He capricious, acting on whims and not being fair.
Paul was discussing the problem of why Israel was punished while the gentiles seemed to prosper while completely disregarding who the Jews saw as being the true God.

No more self righteousness.

There is nothing wrong with being righteous, where the problem comes from is people picking out just the parts of the law which makes someone look righteous on the outside, like not eating with gentiles or touching things what would 'defile' them. All the while ignoring the heart of the Law to love God and others as much as you love yourself.

Only His righteousness shall save man.

Which is the true righteousness that I just mentioned, which was pointed out by Jesus in his various discussions with the Jews. There is no 'thing', the "righteousness of God" that people can literally just put on as if by some magical spell, it is rather just a figurative way of describing a type of righteousness that is not hollow and only makes someone look righteous for the purpose of gaining a higher social status.

Yahushua means "God saves".

Which is a dialect of the Syrian language called Aramaic, after a particular valley in that country where it was originally spoken, and has no relevance to Christians but is something that so called messianic jews use to lure Christians into their cult, making susceptible people feel like they have some sort of special knowledge that makes them better than other people.

In which case, man is excluded even in the meaning of His name.

Jesus was born of a woman and tempted in all things as his brothers, who we are when we follow him.

Jesus was the righteousness of God walking this Earth, and the very people of Judea killed that righteousness.

Jesus was the figurative 'name' of God, demonstrating in his actions the character of God. The leaders of the Jewish temple cult had Jesus killed, using gentiles to physically do it, imagining to themselves that they remained 'undefiled' by their actions.

But there is an even more important law which Paul addresses elsewhere - the law of sin and death. The power/strength of sin is the law.

Paul said that through the actions of one man (the first man) sin entered the world, and through that, death.

The sting of sin is death.

In Paul's arguments, the sting of death is being permanently dead, which would be the case if there was no resurrection.

When did the serpent pop up in the garden of Eden? After the issuance of the command 'Do not eat'. Once a command or law is given, an inner principal becomes activated, one that questions that command and leads many to break it.

I don't think that was the point that the story in Genesis was making, and I don't see Paul making that point either. According to Paul's use of the story, the problem was the first people's vulnerability to being deceived.

Scripture shows us the same with Israel and the Mosaic law. It was given to disobedient people, who almost exclusively fell when enticed by the 'law of sin and death' to break every part of it. For ears to hear, it was given so that transgressions would INCREASE.

I don't think that was what Paul meant, rather it was that people should have a correct knowledge that there is a difference between right and wrong, and to have the ability to recognize when they are wrong, so that they can correct their behavior accordingly, as opposed to the general behaviour considered to be socially acceptable, which would not seem so if you have a proper religious Jewish upbringing.

The Mosaic law cannot give life to sinners or save them from their sins. The law, which promises life, in the hand of sinners, leads to death.. Why? Carnal man and his carnal mind and flesh cannot obey the law of God because it's ruled by the serpent.

According to your theory, which I do not believe was shared by the New Testament writers. The natural spirit is trapped in a sin and death cycle and the only way out is an exchange of spirits, the old for the new, that is now available in this apocalyptic age ushered in by the life and death and resurrection and ascension of Christ who is now in the position to give us the spiritual gifts promised of old to live according to the law of the New Covenant which is through the faith in Jesus.