A Non-Religious Abortion Debate

reply to post by Bone75


If that's the case, make a petition to outlaw masturbation and condoms, because they impede sperm from implanting in the womb as well.

Originally posted by Bone75

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by jeramie

 

So then you agree with OP and want to ban contraception too?

Don't misrepresent me like that please. I only want to ban contraceptives that harm or impede a fertilized egg's ability to implant in the womb.

Which are The Pill, the IUD, Nuvaring, all hormonal implants, The Morning After pill, and all emergency contraception.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Bone75

 

Sorry bud you can't have it both ways.

Why do you think humans are more special than the rest of the things on earth? Could it be because of a religious belief? Cause then your WHOLE argument is about religion, when you don't want it to be.

See you just can't do it, can you? Why CAN'T I think humans are the most special creatures on this planet without being religious?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Bone75

 

If that's the case, make a petition to outlaw masturbation and condoms, because they impede sperm from implanting in the womb as well.

That is an extremely ridiculous and immature argument. Sperm in the tip of a condom kills no one.

reply to post by Bone75


You can, but you'd still be wrong.

Animals are no less important or special than we are. Just because we have the ability to reason and use logic doesn't mean we are better than them. I've never seen an animal bomb another country or almost completely wipe out an indigenous people before, so who do you really think is "better"?

reply to post by Bone75


Neither do contraceptives.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Agarta

 

Originally posted by Agarta
I fail to see the difference between a medical procedure to end the life, be it believed to be at conception, heart beat, or brain patterns and giving a woman the option to end the pregnancy, at any time, and have a non evasive removal of said life to a chamber that continues to maintain that lifes development.

There's no difference in the medical procedure, there's a difference in the CHOICE. If I'm pregnant, I may not want to bring a child into this world to be raised by someone else. I may not want her growing up, wondering why her mother didn't want her. I may not want her to be shuffled from one foster home to another.

My point is, I feel, that an either or is not going to be accepted by all,

I am not concerned with my personal medical decisions being accepted by all. If I had cancer and had my breasts removed, it's no one's business but my own.

A fetus doesn't have legal rights.

I have to shut down. We have a monsoon storm on the way.

Later...

Well if a woman makes the choice not to bring children into this world for whatever reason than birth control should have been the first choice, ie; not fertilizing in the first place. Believing in birth control or not is the choice. If one does not, then they must stand by that choice.

The whole debate comes down to eliminating a possible life or not. We as a people can not come to a consensus as to when it becomes life/human. Why is it that only the woman may choose whether that life will be a benefit to life on this planet or not. How many great minds will never come to be because a woman CHOOSES that the life she HELPED create is not worth allowing to live? Maybe that person grows up to fix the world the woman didn't want to bring them up in. It is not just avoiding a pregnancy, but also ending possibilities.

I realize that in the case of rape(or failed birth control) birth control is not always an option and therefore the right to choose to keep or not IS the womans right, but there is no reason for the possibility of the future to be extinguished as well. By all means choose whether to carry or not, but i don't think, if the technology exists, it is a right to end that possibility.

As for not wanting someone else to raise the child, if the technology existed, I honestly believe this to be nothing more than selfishness and the desire(conscious or subconscious) to control future possibility. There are many woman that can not conceive that desperately wish to have children. By your Choice these people are held ever longer in their suffering and heartache.

Lets say, for the sake or argument that an immortal conscious energy known as a soul does exist outside scientific understanding. That soul would have no physical existence and therefore limited in its understanding and possibilities for what? A Womans CHOICE? At this point, due to the lack of technology we can not say, with 100% certainty that a soul does not exist and therefore have no idea what consequences abortion has on those souls.

With finding the technology these possibilities and experiences can be made without nullifying the right of the woman to carry or not.

P.S. Be safe through the storm. My thoughts are with you and those in your area.

Originally posted by Bone75


Stop what you're doing and take a good look around you son. I really don't think I need to explain what makes us more special than an ant or a virus.

Which of your examples has the ability to build a spaceship and leave this world in search of another?

but neither can a fetus,

now is a human defined by cognitive function?

Having read the ops point and I think I will chime in.

The op has asked to give a debate on abortion with out using religion as part of the argument. To that end I will take up the pro stance.

It is the OP's position that abortion and contraceptives that harm fertillized eggs should be illegal, due to that it should be considered murder.

While this is the point of view that many who would be against abortion use, as a fundamental point of view, the problem is that ultimately it would hold every woman who miscarried accountable for the loss of every fertalized egg. According to the ACOG, up to 25% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage within the first 20 weeks of gestation. How does one prove that a woman did or did not use a contraceptive device in that time frame to prevent such from occuring?

Do we now prosecute those women all cause they miscarried, finding them guilty before being proved innocent?

And then what of women, where it could be life threatening for them to have a child? Do we deny them the right to enjoy sex, all on the grounds that they may end up with a fertalized egg? Or force them to become sterilized?

And finally, what of the unwanted children that will result from unprotected sex? As much as we would like to say that all children are wanted, ultimately the reality is that so many are not wanted. Children endure a number of hardships, while child abuse and neglect is down, no one ever considers the costs on the person who does not want a child. It is becoming more and more where the grandparents are having to step in to care for and raise their grandchildren, as the parents do not have the financial means or want the child. And as long as the adoption system is a lengthy system, many end up in the foster system. The forster system does alot of damage to children as they have no stability of a home life. People often talk about the children before they are born, but it seems that after the child is out of the womb, the care and concern seem to just disappear.

These are the things that would have to be discussed, and then there is one final point that many tend to avoid. Are you prepared to give up all right of medical privacy in your life? Are you prepared to have what medical proceedures you are and are not allowed to have happen? What about travel, would you be so willing to give up the right to say travel to another country like Canada or Mexico?

Make no mistake, in the interest of fairness and equality in the law, if you think that the fertalized egg should be protected, then it would mean that 25% of the women who do miscarry would be punished, adding to the overburdened penal system, and all of our freedoms would quickly go away, that of privacy, as the patient/doctor privledge would no longer be allowed in a court of law and travel out of country would be restricted to only a privledge few, so those day trips to Canada and Mexico would be out of the question.

reply to post by Bone75

See you just can't do it, can you? Why CAN'T I think humans are the most special creatures on this planet without being religious?

Because that idea of us being special snowflakes is a religious one. It has been since we started thinking silly thoughts like that.

So if you believe that we above all else are special snowflakes and some how human life deserves more consideration than the ant I stepped on, then your argument against abortion is not valid.

It doesn't come from a place of science or rational thought, it comes from a narcissistic view of humanity, which was first enshrined by the religious.

The thing about an atheist or an agnostic is that we understand that all life forms have equal weight and importance in the grand scheme of things. Or the same little importance I suppose.

~Tenth

Hey Bone

How about that retarded girl?

Care to answer that question?

Or,

Has the thought of it diminished your mental capacity?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The way I see it, a woman should not be forced to have a baby if she doesn't want one.

It is their body that has to go through labor/birth, so if they choose to to not want a baby, they should have that choice.

They do have that choice and will always have that choice.... right before their panties come off.

reply to post by Bone75


So they WON'T always have that choice... they will only have that choice as long as you let them?

I thought them taking off their panties was their right as well?

Either way you look at it, you are trying to impose YOUR opinion on other people. How would you feel if someone forced contraceptives on you or your wife?

Originally posted by ShadellacZumbrum
Hey Bone

How about that retarded girl?

Care to answer that question?

Or,

Has the thought of it diminished your mental capacity?

A raped retarded girl who winds up pregnant accounts for about .01% of all abortions. In that particular case, I would be much more inclined to "mind my own business".

Your example ticks me off more than anything else because you're exploiting the very rare victims of society that never even had a real "choice" to make. You're using this heart-wrenching example to justify the actions of the majority and that's just plain wrong.

reply to post by Bone75


So Basically you have Completely Destroyed your position over a Retarded girl.

How is it O.K. for one and not the other?

reply to post by Bone75


So you choose not to mind your own business 99.99% of the time then?

If a woman wants to have sex, that is HER choice, if a woman doesn't want to have a baby, that is HER choice. It's none of your business what she chooses to do with her body one way or the other, so if you don't agree with contraceptives, don't use them. Don't try to impose your opinion on other people.

reply to post by Bone75


My view is simpler. If there is no real social preparation or requirements forced on parents then we should see kids as their parents property and beyond clear an intentional torture and abuse we should keep our collective nose out of it. It is not like kids came with an instruction manual, if society does not create requirements and provide the moral and pedagogical framework, it should not focus simply on sanctions, as if to magically clear our collective conscience.

reply to post by Bone75


If you don't think that emotionally and physically disabled are among the highest statistics among rape victims, you're more out of touch than I thought!

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Nephalim
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

i dont know about that one. How is abortion taking away YOUR first amendment? Sounds to me like abortion would be violating the first amendment since an aborted child no longer has speech. You on the other hand can still voice.

O>o
Yes? No?

edit on 4-7-2013 by Nephalim because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-7-2013 by Nephalim because: (no reason given)

First of all, nobody said anything about the first amendment, as it is not relevant in this discussion.

Second, are you really trying to claim than an embryo or fetus has a right to free speech?

You tell me you brought it up. I was trying to rule that out. but now you need to see it so. There you have it. If its not relevant to this discussion dont bring it up. "Second" I would likely agree that given enough time, yes they do have a right to free speech, they are living people.

What is unfortunate is that you, and those who agree with you, do not respect the right of others to an opinion. You would make abortion illegal, thus telling anyone who doesnt agree with you that they have no right to an opinion, and telling them that, unequivocally, they are wrong.
See how that works?

No one is trying to FORCE anyone to have an abortion, yet those that would make it illegal are trying to FORCE people to bring a pregnancy to term. In the end, its about freedom. And I believe in everyones freedom to do as they wish with their bodies. Just as I respect your freedom to NOT have an abortion, I respect others' freedom TO have an abortion.