A Non-Religious Abortion Debate

reply to post by Agarta

Originally posted by Agarta
Although I do whole heatedly believe that personal choice of ones body trumps, there are those that will always see it a murder, period, even if forced to mind their own business.

And I support their right to have that opinion. But living here on this planet as we do, we have to find a way to live peaceably together. The only way to do that is to live by our own standards, and not to force others to live according to our views.

If someone thinks it's murder, they they should have the freedom to reject having an abortion.

This is not solving the issue , but simply sweeping it under the rug and forming "below the surface" hatred and judgment.

The issue is how much can I (and should I) dictate how other people live thier lives? The whole idea that abortion and birth control is something we should have a town hall meeting on and come to a conclusion about is insane! It cannot happen. So, we must each decide for ourselves how we feel about it. I personally think life begins at conception. I have been pregnant. I know I had a life inside me. But it is not my place to project MY opinions and MY views on other people. It's FAR too personal an issue for me to have the gall to impose MY beliefs about it onto someone else.

However, if said incubation chamber is created.

Then you would have women legally succumbing to some sort of removal process. No, I'm sorry. If I get pregnant, what happens from there is between me and my doctor. It's really no one else's business, even if they think it is.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


i dont know about that one. How is abortion taking away YOUR first amendment? Sounds to me like abortion would be violating the first amendment since an aborted child no longer has speech. You on the other hand can still voice.

O>o
Yes? No?

reply to post by Bone75


You believe that life begins at conception. I don't!

BTW...don't tell me what to believe based on just your opinion.

reply to post by Bone75


Fertilization is a chemical reaction. Nothing more. It takes a lot more than fertilization before an actual human being emerges.

The lucky few sperm who reached the egg in the Fallopian tube surround it and begin competing for entrance. The head of each sperm, the acrosome, releases enzymes that begin to break down the outer, jelly-like layer of the egg's membrane, trying to penetrate the egg. Once a single sperm has penetrated, the cell membrane of the egg changes its electrical characteristics. This electrical signal causes small sacs just beneath the membrane (cortical granules) to dump their contents into the space surrounding the egg. The contents swell, pushing the other sperm far away from the egg in a process called cortical reaction. The cortical reaction ensures that only one sperm fertilizes the egg. The other sperm die within 48 hours.

The fertilized egg is now called a zygote. The depolarization caused by sperm penetration results in one last round of division in the egg's nucleus, forming a pronucleus containing only one set of genetic information. The pronucleus from the egg merges with the nucleus from the sperm. Once the two pronuclei merge, cell division begins immediately.

The dividing zygote gets pushed along the Fallopian tube. Approximately four days after fertilization, the zygote has about 100 cells and is called a blastocyst. When the blastocyst reaches the uterine lining, it floats for about two days and finally implants itself in the uterine wall around six days after fertilization. This signals the beginning of pregnancy. The implanted blastocyst continues developing in the uterus for nine months. As the baby grows, the uterus stretches until it's about the size of a basketball.

science.howstuffworks.com...

Originally posted by Bone75

Originally posted by Darth_Prime
Because it should be a personal decision, no one should believe they have the power over anyone to dictate their life,

So you don't think a woman having an abortion is dictating that fetus's life?

No, see, apparently the whole "live and let live" mentality doesn't apply to helpless, innocent babies. People have manipulated the "rules" in order to allow themselves to claim that an unborn baby is not a human.

Yet, if NASA announced they found an amoeba on Mars, the world with be ringing with the news that life has been found on another planet.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Bone75

 

Fine I'll bite. I've taken this position because upon the moment of fertilization, the male and female chromosomes fuse into a new human.

Ok, fine.

Is that personal belief or one backed up by science? You're using the term 'Human' pretty loosely.

~Tenth

A DNA test on that one single cell will tell you that it is not only "Human" but "A Human".

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Then you would have women legally succumbing to some sort of removal process. No, I'm sorry. If I get pregnant, what happens from there is between me and my doctor. It's really no one else's business, even if they think it is.

I fail to see the difference between a medical procedure to end the life, be it believed to be at conception, heart beat, or brain patterns and giving a woman the option to end the pregnancy, at any time, and have a non evasive removal of said life to a chamber that continues to maintain that lifes development. My point is, I feel, that an either or is not going to be accepted by all, but an alternative that all 3 sides can be happy with can be reached through scientific research and development. (the 3rd side being the rights of the fetus)

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Bone75

 

Fertilization is a chemical reaction. Nothing more. It takes a lot more than fertilization before an actual human being emerges.

The lucky few sperm who reached the egg in the Fallopian tube surround it and begin competing for entrance. The head of each sperm, the acrosome, releases enzymes that begin to break down the outer, jelly-like layer of the egg's membrane, trying to penetrate the egg. Once a single sperm has penetrated, the cell membrane of the egg changes its electrical characteristics. This electrical signal causes small sacs just beneath the membrane (cortical granules) to dump their contents into the space surrounding the egg. The contents swell, pushing the other sperm far away from the egg in a process called cortical reaction. The cortical reaction ensures that only one sperm fertilizes the egg. The other sperm die within 48 hours.

The fertilized egg is now called a zygote. The depolarization caused by sperm penetration results in one last round of division in the egg's nucleus, forming a pronucleus containing only one set of genetic information. The pronucleus from the egg merges with the nucleus from the sperm. Once the two pronuclei merge, cell division begins immediately.

The dividing zygote gets pushed along the Fallopian tube. Approximately four days after fertilization, the zygote has about 100 cells and is called a blastocyst. When the blastocyst reaches the uterine lining, it floats for about two days and finally implants itself in the uterine wall around six days after fertilization. This signals the beginning of pregnancy. The implanted blastocyst continues developing in the uterus for nine months. As the baby grows, the uterus stretches until it's about the size of a basketball.

science.howstuffworks.com...

I'm sorry, but GROW UP. You know full well you and other people like you are making every pathetic, weak effort to justify the murder of unborn HUMAN BEINGS. It's sickening.

If the baby instantly appeared in the mother's womb as the size of a 4 month fetus, people would still make stupid excuses as to why that fetus is not a human. It's almost comical the lengths people will go just to justify stupid actions.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

No, I'm sorry. If I get pregnant, what happens from there is between me and my doctor. It's really no one else's business, even if they think it is.

The biggest problem I have with that argument is that I have read it a million times from many different women, and NOT ONCE have any of you included the father when it comes to who's business it is. NOT ONCE!

reply to post by Bone75


Ok, so your argument is that if has DNA, it's sacred and should not be killed or hurt?

Do you feel the same way about mold? Or bacteria? Or let's see, bugs? Other animals?

Hell a virus has DNA and is considered NON living.

All of those mentioned have DNA, what makes us more special than the ant I stepped on this morning?

~Tenth

reply to post by Agarta

Originally posted by Agarta
I fail to see the difference between a medical procedure to end the life, be it believed to be at conception, heart beat, or brain patterns and giving a woman the option to end the pregnancy, at any time, and have a non evasive removal of said life to a chamber that continues to maintain that lifes development.

There's no difference in the medical procedure, there's a difference in the CHOICE. If I'm pregnant, I may not want to bring a child into this world to be raised by someone else. I may not want her growing up, wondering why her mother didn't want her. I may not want her to be shuffled from one foster home to another.

My point is, I feel, that an either or is not going to be accepted by all,

I am not concerned with my personal medical decisions being accepted by all. If I had cancer and had my breasts removed, it's no one's business but my own.

A fetus doesn't have legal rights.

I have to shut down. We have a monsoon storm on the way. Later...

reply to post by Bone75


Brains produce consciousness. It is the result of a fine electrical tapestry.

A sentient being is not just a collection of cells. This is the foundation from which we build our laws about where the line is drawn on abortion.

Some mad scientist could make you grow tumors that produced human children.... that would be a lot of children to feed.

reply to post by jeramie


So then you agree with OP and want to ban contraception too?

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Bone75

 

Ok, so your argument is that if has DNA, it's sacred and should not be killed or hurt?

Do you feel the same way about mold? Or bacteria? Or let's see, bugs? Other animals?

Hell a virus has DNA and is considered NON living.

All of those mentioned have DNA, what makes us more special than the ant I stepped on this morning?

~Tenth

Stop what you're doing and take a good look around you son. I really don't think I need to explain what makes us more special than an ant or a virus.

Which of your examples has the ability to build a spaceship and leave this world in search of another?

Originally posted by Nephalim
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

i dont know about that one. How is abortion taking away YOUR first amendment? Sounds to me like abortion would be violating the first amendment since an aborted child no longer has speech. You on the other hand can still voice.

O>o
Yes? No?

edit on 4-7-2013 by Nephalim because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-7-2013 by Nephalim because: (no reason given)

First of all, nobody said anything about the first amendment, as it is not relevant in this discussion.

Second, are you really trying to claim than an embryo or fetus has a right to free speech?

reply to post by Bone75


Sorry bud you can't have it both ways.

Why do you think humans are more special than the rest of the things on earth? Could it be because of a religious belief? Cause then your WHOLE argument is about religion, when you don't want it to be.

If you believe that human life is more important than all the life on earth, just because that's what you believe, than your argument about abortion is just plain crappy. I can't debate somebody on their BELIEFS, I can only debate you on facts my friend.

~Tenth

The way I see it, a woman should not be forced to have a baby if she doesn't want one.

It is their body that has to go through labor/birth, so if they choose to to not want a baby, they should have that choice.

If they outlaw contraceptives then they should also outlaw condoms, because they both serve the same exact purpose. I don't see very many people up in arms about condoms though. Double standard?

While we're at it, why don't we go ahead and outlaw masturbation too? Because wasting all that sperm is killing life too isn't it?

The point is, people should be allowed to choose what to do with their own bodies, not some Sally Joe down the street or some guy in a business suit sitting in Washington. If you don't agree with birth control, don't use it! It's that simple.

Originally posted by Bone75

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

No, I'm sorry. If I get pregnant, what happens from there is between me and my doctor. It's really no one else's business, even if they think it is.

The biggest problem I have with that argument is that I have read it a million times from many different women, and NOT ONCE have any of you included the father when it comes to who's business it is. NOT ONCE!

Pretty narrowly focused argument there. Plenty, PLENTY of women consult their partner before an abortion.

And as I have said in many of these threads in the past, mens rights are a different topic than the right of choice.

Originally posted by Bone75
I'm starting this thread to prove a point, and if I'm successful, this should be a very short topic.

My position is that abortion and contraceptives that harm fertilized eggs should be illegal. I think its murder and it should be stopped.

Now if you disagree with me, I'd like to hear you argue against my position without the use of pointless religious attacks, and I'm asking those who do agree with me to refrain from doing so as well.

So without further adieu, let the debate begin.

there is no debate. you can't define that as murder. discharge of eggs that are flushed out of the woman, happens every month, to every woman in the world. please learn biology and couple that with 6th grade logic. that is as nice as I can be to you.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by jeramie

 

So then you agree with OP and want to ban contraception too?

Don't misrepresent me like that please. I only want to ban contraceptives that harm or impede a fertilized egg's ability to implant in the womb.