Why do Christians believe in a God that has "chosen" the Jews

reply to post by Deetermined

Jesus only said that God was greater than him while he was here on earth.

What did Jesus say when he wasn't "here on earth"?

He was here in the flesh.

He was a human being but was the same person as who he was before.

God is greater than the flesh, so of course Jesus was going to say that God was greater than him.

Or there is a God who Jesus recognized as being greater than himself whether he was in a spiritual form or a human form.

He didn't want people to fall back into assigning the status of God to humans.

Now you are reading his mind.

God is Jesus higher self, the Holy Spirit.

That may be a theory of your cult leader's.

I would tell you to read John 8, 9, 10 and 14 again, but I know it wouldn't do any good.

You should take this lack of specificity as a reason to be suspicious of the theory which you have taken as truth for no better reason than that your leader said so.

reply to post by Deetermined

What in the world are you talking about?

Apparently you do not follow the mainstream version of Dispensationalism, but an offshoot cult.

The Jew's Messiah is Jesus, they just don't realize it yet.

I don't believe in all this "the Jews" business but use the term because of the dispensationalists' fixation on them. Normal, non-cultish Christianity does not have a scheme set up that brings the "redemption" of the Jews.

I don't deny the Messiahship of Jesus.

Then you have a really weak definition of a Messiah since you believe that Satan rules the world.

However, what you continue to do is deny that Jesus is God in the Old Testament, based on your own cult.

You are so wrapped up in your own cult that you can't see that all normal Christians do not believe that. There is nowhere in the Bible that says Jesus is the same person as all the various 'god' characters in the Old Testament.

What? Maybe you should read those verses again.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Where did you ever get the notion that this pointed to Moses?

You are apparently reading the KJV, that says "hide" when the better translation is "veiled" which is something that Moses did when he showed himself to the people because of the 'glory' that was on his face.

Moses wasn't even there to "blind the minds".

Not in person, but there was all these writings that were attributed to Moses that the Jews were all wrapped up in that they saw as giving them their self-perceived 'righteousness'.

That's exactly how I feel about your interpretation of scripture and your belief that Jesus is not God. No matter how much you try to claim that this is a "normal" Christian belief, it is not. Christianity is based on the knowledge that Jesus is God.

Jesus was in a generic sense, god, but there is a person who the New Testament refers to as God who is a unique entity unto himself who is not Jesus.
Christianity is overwhelmingly trinitarian, which believes in three distinct persons of the godhead.

You're one of the very few who doesn't understand that.

I do understand it very well, having made that a special study for thirty years.

You still don't understand why the Old Testament is tied to the New Testament to begin with.

There were prophecies in it of a better world to come with a special servant of God who was going to bring it about. That conveniently fit in with the actual mission that Jesus was on.
I don't think that the connection is to have willing servants to make sure that the Jews have a state in Palestine.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Not in person, but there was all these writings that were attributed to Moses that the Jews were all wrapped up in that they saw as giving them their self-perceived 'righteousness'.

Let's see what Jesus had to say about Moses' writings shall we?

Luke 24:44

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

John 5:46-47

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

You are confused, Dewey.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I do understand it very well, having made that a special study for thirty years.

I guess it just goes to prove the Bible right regarding how people come to faith in the first place. You're not going to find it by studying alone. When you're able to connect God with Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit, then maybe you'll gain some insight and understanding.

In reality, that doesn't make you any different than the Jews, only in reverse. Someday they will be able to make the connection between God and Jesus, and hopefully, you will too.

That connection is named the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by Deetermined

You are confused, Dewey.

Don't get confused yourself.
Because there Is a line in the Torah about a future prophet does not mean that Jesus is endorsing the way that the Jews were taking the laws in that same book. I doubt that you are going about following the Law of Moses and thinking that it makes you righteous.
That is the sort of thing that Jesus was up against when he was preaching, that the Jews already had a god, thank you very much, and they were going into the kingdom for no other reason than that they were Jews.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jesus could care less about their laws. Jesus practiced the Jews' laws when he was with them and he didn't when he was with the Gentiles. He didn't care one way or the other as long as they weren't putting their laws above God.

reply to post by Deetermined

When you're able to connect God with Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit, then maybe you'll gain some insight and understanding.

I don't make that connection through a cult leader who is supposedly especially inspired.
I think that the New Testament is a pretty good guide to what to believe in rather than modern day prophets claiming to know more than Jesus and the Apostles.

reply to post by Deetermined

Jesus could care less about their laws. Jesus practiced the Jews' laws when he was with them and he didn't when he was with the Gentiles.

When was Jesus "with the Gentiles"?

He didn't care one way or the other as long as they weren't putting their laws above God.

The thing is that they did. They made their own religion their 'god' and did not recognize the real god in Jesus when he was with them.

Text It is evident then that the Father is not the Son and that the Son is not the Father, and that likewise the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son. Nevertheless, these persons, thus distinct, are neither divided nor fused or mixed together. For the Father did not take on flesh, nor did the Spirit, but only the Son.

reply to post by GeneralMishka


@ GeneralMishka

I have never understood the trinity. Moses wrote -- Gen 1:26 (In part) "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"

I had been taught that image is the visibility of God and man that the likeness is Spirit God and the spirit of man.
Some Christians insist that God is in three parts while others say that God is in two portions which are His Image (Word) and Likeness (Spirit God Himself). I was taught that God is not an entity such as we can understand an entity. He has no circle or line to be drawn.

How can some say that the Holy Spirit is a separate entity? I always thought that there was only one Holy Spirit and that was spirit God Himself. I understand God showing us His visibility as the Word or Image but I cannot understand that a third portion is even necessary in understanding God. Can you explain this to me?

reply to post by GeneralMishka

The Christian Understanding of the Trinity and deity of Christ as outlined in the Belgic Confession(1561)

The Protestant understanding at least.
Seems that the author, Guido de Bres, was later killed by the Spanish Inquisition.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Deetermined

 

When you're able to connect God with Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit, then maybe you'll gain some insight and understanding.

I don't make that connection through a cult leader who is supposedly especially inspired.

I think that the New Testament is a pretty good guide to what to believe in rather than modern day prophets claiming to know more than Jesus and the Apostles.

Then maybe you should use the New Testament to understand who the Holy Spirit is, since it's clear that you do not. Read those chapters in John that I mentioned earlier.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by GeneralMishka

 

The Christian Understanding of the Trinity and deity of Christ as outlined in the Belgic Confession(1561)

The Protestant understanding at least.
Seems that the author, Guido de Bres, was later killed by the Spanish Inquisition.

Very true, I should think the Catholics would agree on these points though. The Eastern Orthodox would mostly agree, but disagree on issues related the the Great Schism(whether the Holy Ghost was sent to Saints by the Father or Father & Son)

Originally posted by Seede

Text It is evident then that the Father is not the Son and that the Son is not the Father, and that likewise the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son. Nevertheless, these persons, thus distinct, are neither divided nor fused or mixed together. For the Father did not take on flesh, nor did the Spirit, but only the Son.

reply to post by GeneralMishka

 

@ GeneralMishka

I have never understood the trinity. Moses wrote -- Gen 1:26 (In part) "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"

I had been taught that image is the visibility of God and man that the likeness is Spirit God and the spirit of man.
Some Christians insist that God is in three parts while others say that God is in two portions which are His Image (Word) and Likeness (Spirit God Himself). I was taught that God is not an entity such as we can understand an entity. He has no circle or line to be drawn.

How can some say that the Holy Spirit is a separate entity? I always thought that there was only one Holy Spirit and that was spirit God Himself. I understand God showing us His visibility as the Word or Image but I cannot understand that a third portion is even necessary in understanding God. Can you explain this to me?

Forgive me seede, as I didnt see your inquiry until now. The Spirit(s) of God are more easily distinguishable from the Holy Ghost of the trinity in the King James Version of the Bible. The Holy Spirit of the Trinity is distinguished as the HOLY GHOST

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

reply to post by ChristianJihad


You have a valid point. But, Jesus was capable of compassion as evidenced from the Beatitudes teaching. Slavery was accepted employment in ancient times and that was not his fight at that time. A changed heart knows slavery is wrong.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Who did you think Jesus was praying to and calling Father . Yes Jesus as described by Isaiah 53 in the old testament . Jesus is at the right hand of God in heaven . Jesus ( God the Son) said to ( God the Father ) not my will but yours .

reply to post by SimonPeter

Who did you think Jesus was praying to and calling Father

God. Jesus did not go out of his way to identify Him with the various gods mentioned in the Old Testament. Jesus did go out of his way in the Gospel of John to point out to the priests in charge of the temple that they did not know God, and also to his disciples that no one had seen God, which goes against the stories in the OT.

Yes Jesus as described by Isaiah 53 in the old testament

Isaiah 53 is describing themselves, as is agreed upon by reputable Bible commentators. It is reinterpreted, in part, by certain NT allusions, as predicting Jesus' death.

Jesus is at the right hand of God in heaven . Jesus ( God the Son) said to ( God the Father ) not my will but yours

What's your point?

reply to post by jmdewey60

God. Jesus did not go out of his way to identify Him with the various gods mentioned in the Old Testament. Jesus did go out of his way in the Gospel of John to point out to the priests in charge of the temple that they did not know God, and also to his disciples that no one had seen God, which goes against the stories in the OT.

John 5:37-39

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jesus was telling the group of people that he was addressing that they neither heard God's voice or had seen his shape because they weren't recognizing him in the form of Jesus.

It's because they didn't believe in God that they didn't recognize him or hear Jesus'/God's voice.

Jesus clearly tells them in verse 39 that the Old Testament scriptures testify of him, yet they don't understand what he's saying, just like you don't understand what he's saying.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Isaiah 53 is describing themselves, as is agreed upon by reputable Bible commentators. It is reinterpreted, in part, by certain NT allusions, as predicting Jesus' death.

Isaiah 53 is describing the exact same thing that Jesus said in John 5:39.

It is Old Testament scripture that testifies of Jesus.

Once again...

Luke 24:44

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

reply to post by Deetermined

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Jesus was telling the group of people that he was addressing that they neither heard God's voice or had seen his shape because they weren't recognizing him in the form of Jesus.
It's because they didn't believe in God that they didn't recognize him or hear Jesus'/God's voice.
Jesus clearly tells them in verse 39 that the Old Testament scriptures testify of him, yet they don't understand what he's saying, just like you don't understand what he's saying.

It says earlier in the story that the leaders of the Jews began at that time to persecute him. Jesus seems to be addressing the Jews in general. If you compress the sayings down a bit, you see that Jesus is reversing the Jews' "persecution" of him, right back onto them.
By mentioning Moses, and the scriptures, and the appearance of The Lord at Sinai, and then saying not only did those things not do them any good, but that they actually condemn them (because it should have done them good, but instead of learning any useful lessons, they had gone into a form of self worship), Jesus is nullifying that they were even really Israelites at all.

There are a couple of other verses dealing with people seeing or not seeing God that are more relevant to the point that I was making in my earlier post:
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I won't comment on your first two paragraphs because they made absolutely no sense to me.

As for John 1:18, I find it funny that you post a verse that basically states that Jesus is God, but yet you'll argue the opposite.

As for the other verse you posted, we all know that no one has seen God in his natural state because doing so would be deadly, that's why we have Jesus as the physical manifestation of God.

Forgive me for not continuing to reply to any more of your posts, as I know that your comments are all in vain. I've been informed that you claim to be a Christian only to gain the respect of other Christians on ATS, but that you have actually denied Jesus as your Savior, so there's no more point in trying to help the blind to see, since you've chosen to stay blind.