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Why do Christians believe in a God that has "chosen" the Jews

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posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by TheConstruKctionofLight
 

. . . you should ask yourself "why" your omnipotent, omniscient Jehovah-Baal mountain god would allow Satan such power . . .
That quote is from 2 Corinthians 11:14, and Paul is here talking about these self-proclaimed apostles showing up at the church in Corinth and presenting themselves as being superior to Paul, in such ways as being more eloquently spoken (and so were worthy of financial support by the church congregation according to these intruders in Paul's opinion).
What Paul was doing was making an argument against them by way of a from lesser to greater approach, starting off with a reference to apocryphal writings of the day which dealt with the life of Adam and Eve, where at one point Eve describes Satan as looking like an angel, and another place where he became brilliant like an angel in order to look as if he was one of them.
So Paul was not giving a theological lecture on the attributes of Satan here, but was lecturing the members on the deceptiveness of people who would seek to impose themselves, and ultimately for the worse, since according to Paul, those people don't have any real spiritual knowledge, with the implied implication that they would be only disseminating junk pseudo-spirituality that would cause them to be actually degraded from their earlier status having been taught by Paul, a real Apostle.
edit on 6-7-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by TheConstruKctionofLight
 

You see thats the problem with those that need an adversary to complete their theology. They need a vicarious "outsider" (satan) to personify and detach from themselves their own internal conflicts of good/bad,
Satan does not rule the world. I know that Dispensationalists like to repeat that, but they are wrong, according to the New Testament.
Jesus said a couple of places in the Gospel that Satan is "cast out" in John, and "cast down" in Luke.
Paul talks about the "god of this world" but he also says that its power is going away, as the Gospel goes forth. If you read the context a bit, you see it matching up well with where he talks about the power of the Old Testament god going away, so it is easy enough to conclude that the old, fading away "ruler of the world" was the old and now defunct Jewish temple cult, which had its final death blow in 70 AD when it was leveled by the Romans.



posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 06:25 PM
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reply to post by ThinkingHuman
 


The Jews did not write the Christian bible at all, the Romans did. The Jews are not the"chosen" ones, the decendants of Issac and Jacob are and they are not necessarily only Jews. In fact, a majority of the decendants of Jacob are not even Jewish but are among the Gentile nations and I use that term loosely because not all non-Jews are in fact "Gentiles" as modern Jews of today want us to think. There is as much blood running through the veins of most Jews as there are among many non-Jews who share the same ancestors. The word "Jew" derived from the name of Judah (son of Jacob) and those who lived in the Judaean region. Supposedly most Israelis today identify themselves as decendants from the Tribe of Judah (or the House of King David) when in fact they can't actually prove that lineage or even had ancestors who lived in the Judaean area as records of the Judaeans were not kept in ancient times. May I also add, no where in Torah is there a mention of the word "Jew". The first use of the word "Jew' was introduced in the Christian bibles in the 18th Century so both Christians and Jews kind of ran with it....but it in fact it only confused the Christians and the Jews used it to their advantage.

When Jews and Christians alike identify Avraham or Abraham as the first Jew, they are wrong and incorrect. Avraham was indeed the father of the Arabs and Hebrews/Israelites but Avraham was not Jewish, nor was Issac, Jacob or even Moses.

Most people today can not comprehend the true nature exactly what a "Jew" today is. Fact is, Judiasm today is a religion, and most Jews (and many among non-Jews) today only generally share a specific bloodline to Issac but none can prove which tribe of Jacob they in fact belong to or even if their ancestors lived in Judea . Keep in mind, during the Babylonian conquest (I believe is where the word "Jew" first derived), not all Israelites were living in Judea and not all Israelites were sent in to exile either, some did manage to stay behind while others wandered off in to other regions.

May I also add, not all Judaeans sent in to exile belonged to Jacob's tribes.

.



posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by bluemirage5
 
The Jews did not write the Christian bible at all, the Romans did.
The Jews are not the"chosen" ones,
majority of the decendants of Jacob are not even Jewish
Most people today can not comprehend the true nature exactly what a "Jew" today is.
Avraham was not Jewish, nor was Issac, Jacob or even Moses
not all non-Jews are in fact "Gentiles" as modern Jews of today want us to think
not all Israelites were living in Judea and not all Israelites were sent in to exile either
not all Judaeans sent in to exile belonged to Jacob's tribes
records of the Judaeans were not kept in ancient times

Your post shows me mostly how little we actually know. Most of what we think we 'know' is mere hear-say, claims by somebody biased with an agenda, contradicted by other 'evidence'. Thanks for your post.



posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by HairlessApe
 
I've read the story before, as I actually decided to read the hilarious piece of literary fail that is the Bible,

Well, maybe we should give them a break, they lived 2000 years ago, their standards were a little different back then. Not everybody can be like Socrates, 3000+ years ahead of his time.



posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 09:44 PM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 





From what did you get that Rome created Christianity

From reading between the lines...digging into early christianity. More specifically Council of Nicae where it was decided what would be canonical or not. You obviously as usual in your posts fail to even look outside the square. Christianity is nothing but the old roman empire...resurrected under a new banner with more rules and dogma to stop man learning of their true spirituality and godhood. Paul subverted the message of Jesus. Whether "Jesus born of Mary" ever existed is still open to question. Historically there are only oblique references in Josephus antiquities of the jews regarding jesus.




The claim that the Vatican changed the Gospel is unlikely.


You mentioned this not me..I used the term Roman as in the Roman empire between 300-400 ad. Read the link that I posted about how Rome still controls the world.

In this thread here www.abovetopsecret.com...
you wrote condescendely
"The first thing you might do is get a job and keep it . I have 40 years of experience on you . I have been where you are back in 73 and I know how youth thinks . I had 2 kids and a mortgage and made my own way by age 20"
Whats interesting is that nothing has changed in the last 5 months...you dig no deeper than your myopia will allow



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 01:02 AM
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reply to post by TheConstruKctionofLight
 


You did not actually listen to what I said then or now . Roman Catholics are not the givers of Christianity . Jesus Christ did that. Paul did not subvert the Gospel either . Jesus actually did feel it necessary to warn against the Catholics though . The New Testament was fully circulating within the Mediterranean area and any changes to the Gospel made by Rome would be refuted quickly . The Catholics did put forth their subversions to the Gospel in their church and enforce them with the threat of Death not unlike Islam .The Pope is nothing more than their front man . His powers are only to form an illusion of holiness .Their priest that are called fathers are just ministers and none of them have the power to forgive sin . That ended with the Apostles .
As for age , your perspective changes as you get older . I doubt you could comprehend the wisdom gained over a life time until you get there .
Rome doesn't rule anything now the Zionist Jews rule everything . The Protocols of Zion would be a good read for you . First you have to get past all the bullscat that they are a fraud and survey who has assumed the very positions prescribed in the plan . Start with the Bankers all over the world and World Bank . The Federal Reserve is owned by them and so is the Bank of England . Rome is run by the EU . In fact the Rothschild banks are said to be keeping the Vatican Gold . Good luck getting that back .



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 06:23 AM
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reply to post by ThinkingHuman
 



You need to pay better attention. The link you provided was for "Why did God choose Israel to be His chosen people?" - Not "Why do Christians believe in a God that has chosen" Jews (or any other group of people)?

I know both sentences contain 'God' and 'chosen' but try to understand the difference.


I'll tell you for the THIRD TIME that Christians believe in the God that chose the Jews because the GOD IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS THE SAME GOD AS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.

JESUS IS GOD!!!!!

Maybe you weren't paying attention the last two times I posted it!

By the way, maybe you didn't realize that the term CHRISTIAN comes from believing in CHRIST!

Christians believe in Christ because he's the only God who came to die for his followers in order that they might have eternal life through him.



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 06:33 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Jesus said a couple of places in the Gospel that Satan is "cast out" in John, and "cast down" in Luke.
Paul talks about the "god of this world" but he also says that its power is going away, as the Gospel goes forth. If you read the context a bit, you see it matching up well with where he talks about the power of the Old Testament god going away, so it is easy enough to conclude that the old, fading away "ruler of the world" was the old and now defunct Jewish temple cult, which had its final death blow in 70 AD when it was leveled by the Romans.


You need to brush up on your Bible skills, Dewey.

Satan was the one who was "cast out" and "cast down" to EARTH. That's why Paul refers to Satan as the "god of this world".



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 06:42 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



That quote is from 2 Corinthians 11:14, and Paul is here talking about these self-proclaimed apostles showing up at the church in Corinth and presenting themselves as being superior to Paul, in such ways as being more eloquently spoken (and so were worthy of financial support by the church congregation according to these intruders in Paul's opinion).

What Paul was doing was making an argument against them by way of a from lesser to greater approach, starting off with a reference to apocryphal writings of the day which dealt with the life of Adam and Eve, where at one point Eve describes Satan as looking like an angel, and another place where he became brilliant like an angel in order to look as if he was one of them.


Let's look at where the "self-proclaimed apostles", who were spreading false information, were getting their information from.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Colossians 2:18

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 06:49 AM
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reply to post by TheConstruKctionofLight
 



Paul subverted the message of Jesus.


What? Paul didn't subvert the message of Jesus.

I'm guessing by your name that you're another New Age, love and light, "angel of light" follower like the verses I posted earlier?



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 07:32 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 

By the way, maybe you didn't realize that the term CHRISTIAN comes from believing in CHRIST!

Your statement has a built-in contradiction.
The Christ is the chosen one of God, so you need a god to make a christ.
That means, like Jesus says in the Gospels, that there is a God above him who gives him his authority.
It sounds like you are trying to say that the same person who in the Old Testament is said to have no one above Him is also the same person in the New Testament who says that there is someone above him.



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 07:38 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Jesus only said that God was greater than him while he was here on earth. He was here in the flesh. God is greater than the flesh, so of course Jesus was going to say that God was greater than him. He didn't want people to fall back into assigning the status of God to humans. God is Jesus higher self, the Holy Spirit.

I would tell you to read John 8, 9, 10 and 14 again, but I know it wouldn't do any good.



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 07:43 AM
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The Christian Understanding of the Trinity and deity of Christ as outlined in the Belgic Confession(1561) edited for space

Article 8: The Trinity

In keeping with this truth and Word of God we believe in one God, who is one single essence, in whom there are three persons, really, truly, and eternally distinct according to their incommunicable properties-- namely, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is the cause, origin, and source of all things, visible as well as invisible.
The Son is the Word, the Wisdom, and the image of the Father.

The Holy Spirit is the eternal power and might, proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Nevertheless, this distinction does not divide God into three, since Scripture teaches us that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each has his own subsistence distinguished by characteristics-- yet in such a way that these three persons are only one God.

It is evident then that the Father is not the Son and that the Son is not the Father, and that likewise the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.

Nevertheless, these persons, thus distinct, are neither divided nor fused or mixed together.

For the Father did not take on flesh, nor did the Spirit, but only the Son.

The Father was never without his Son, nor without his Holy Spirit, since all these are equal from eternity, in one and the same essence.


Article 9: The Scriptural Witness on the Trinity

All these things we know from the testimonies of Holy Scripture as well as from the effects of the persons, especially from those we feel within ourselves.
The testimonies of the Holy Scriptures, which teach us to believe in this Holy Trinity, are written in many places of the Old Testament, which need not be enumerated but only chosen with discretion.

In the book of Genesis God says, "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness." So "God created man in his own image"-- indeed, "male and female he created them."^6 "Behold, man has become like one of us."^7

It appears from this that there is a plurality of persons within the Deity, when he says, "Let us make man in our image"-- and afterwards he indicates the unity when he says, "God created."

It is true that he does not say here how many persons there are-- but what is somewhat obscure to us in the Old Testament is very clear in the New.

For when our Lord was baptized in the Jordan, the voice of the Father was heard saying, "This is my dear Son";^8 the Son was seen in the water; and the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a dove.

So, in the baptism of all believers this form was prescribed by Christ: "Baptize all people in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."^9

Article 10: The Deity of Christ

We believe that Jesus Christ, according to his divine nature, is the only Son of God-- eternally begotten, not made nor created, for then he would be a creature.
He is one in essence with the Father; coeternal; the exact image of the person of the Father and the "reflection of his glory,"^13 being in all things like him.

He is the Son of God not only from the time he assumed our nature but from all eternity, as the following testimonies teach us when they are taken together.

Moses says that God "created the world";^14 and John says that "all things were created by the Word,"^15 which he calls God. The apostle says that "God made the world by his Son."^16 He also says that "God created all things by Jesus Christ."^17

And so it must follow that he who is called God, the Word, the Son, and Jesus Christ already existed when all things were created by him.



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 

You need to brush up on your Bible skills, Dewey.
All I am seeing from your claim that Satan rules is skill at memorizing cult doctrine, considering that you present nothing actually biblical, just human rhetoric that gets pushed for what ever reason. It is part of the Dispensationalist cult belief to deny the Messiahship of Jesus by saying that he doesn't actually rule as king, since that is reserved for the "Jew's" Messiah, yet to come.

Satan was the one who was "cast out" and "cast down" to EARTH. That's why Paul refers to Satan as the "god of this world".
You aren't actually making a persuasive argument since you are ignoring the obvious connotation of the words and go right past it to this mental picture of Satan being enthroned in an earthly temple, which is not ever described as being done at the beginning of the Gospel going forth.
If you read the actual verse in the NT where Paul says the god of this world, 2 Cor. 4, it makes no allusion to a Satan character but it does to Moses. It poses a dilemma such as what Jesus describes in the gospels of how the people's hearing was made dull,
in Matthew,

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

in Mark,

“ ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ ”
edit on 7-7-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 08:20 AM
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I would suggest that only a VERY FEW heretics in the dispensational camp believe that Christ does not reign now. Most would embrace

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


Cultists in the JWs often believe that Satan has total control not realizing(as they are in darkness) they are believing a liar. They think the lie has credibility because Satan was not rebuked for that specific statement. Paul in his letter to Corinth in validating the Reformed principle that there are reprobates that are ALLOWED to be blinded by the wicked



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 08:27 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60

All I am seeing from your claim that Satan rules is skill at memorizing cult doctrine, considering that you present nothing actually biblical, just human rhetoric that gets pushed for what ever reason. It is part of the Dispensationalist cult belief to deny the Messiahship of Jesus by saying that he doesn't actually rule as king, since that is reserved for the "Jew's" Messiah, yet to come.


What in the world are you talking about? The Jew's Messiah is Jesus, they just don't realize it yet. I don't deny the Messiahship of Jesus. However, what you continue to do is deny that Jesus is God in the Old Testament, based on your own cult.


You aren't actually making a persuasive argument since you are ignoring the obvious connotation of the words and go right past it to this mental picture of Satan being enthroned in an earthly temple, which is not ever described as being done at the beginning of the Gospel going forth.

If you read the actual verse in the NT where Paul says the god of this world, 2 Cor. 4, it makes no allusion to a Satan character but it does to Moses. It poses a dilemma such as what Jesus describes in the gospels of how the people's hearing was made dull.


What? Maybe you should read those verses again.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

Where did you ever get the notion that this pointed to Moses? Moses wasn't even there to "blind the minds".


In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."


That's exactly how I feel about your interpretation of scripture and your belief that Jesus is not God. No matter how much you try to claim that this is a "normal" Christian belief, it is not. Christianity is based on the knowledge that Jesus is God. You're one of the very few who doesn't understand that. You still don't understand why the Old Testament is tied to the New Testament to begin with.



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 

. . . where the "self-proclaimed apostles" . . . were getting their information from.
Colossians 2:18

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
This is not relevant to the earlier discussion that Paul was having in 2 Corinthians. This sounds more like people who are either insane, or just liars.

What Paul was saying before was that you have this character in the contemporary Jewish lore that has the ability to present himself as if he was one of the good angels, but was doing so in order to fool Eve.

He is saying to the people of Corinth to not be like Eve and be taken in by these men who were pretending to have a spiritual message but were just really good talkers.
This is not so much a lesson on this real person, Satan, but the literary use of a fictional character to make a point.



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 08:37 AM
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reply to post by GeneralMishka
 


Of course Jesus reigns now, but that didn't stop Paul from calling Satan "the god of this world" (with a lower case "g"), which more people will choose to follow, just like all of the previous "gods" (with a lower case "g") that people worshiped back in those days. People who focus on the worldly "gods" instead of God are following Satan.



posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 08:48 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



He is saying to the people of Corinth to not be like Eve and be taken in by these men who were pretending to have a spiritual message but were just really good talkers.


These "good talkers" believed the same thing that many New Age believers believe today. This isn't stuff they made up just to con people, they truly believed it, just like times of old.

Ezekiel 13:6

They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The Lord saith: and the Lord hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

Ezekiel 12:24

24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel.

Jeremiah 14:14

14 Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Ezekiel 21:23

And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken.

Do you really believe that people were so easily deceived all of those years just by "good talkers"? You might want to reconsider what was really going on. Remember, some of these people went back to worshiping other gods even after they saw all of the miracles performed by God. There was more than just talk going on and the spirit of Satan was involved in all of it, blinding the minds of the people from the truth.



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