The Flaw In Your Logic Regarding Homosexuality

reply to post by Freth

How hard is it to understand that there are still people in this country that have strong moral convictions about right, wrong and what is normal? Doesn't make them bigots, homophobes or anything else, just good people with traditional ideals.

How hard is it to understand just because someone has strong moral convictions doesn't mean they are necessarily good moral convictions. Just because someone upholds 'traditional ideals' doesn't mean they are ideal 'ideals'.

What you said is pertinent though. Someone with such different morals would not see and acknowledge someone as a bigot and homophobe when people of other morals do.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Freth

 

How hard is it to understand that there are still people in this country that have strong moral convictions about right, wrong and what is normal? Doesn't make them bigots, homophobes or anything else, just good people with traditional ideals.

How hard is it to understand just because someone has strong moral convictions doesn't mean they are necessarily good moral convictions. Just because someone upholds 'traditional ideals' doesn't mean they are ideal 'ideals'.

What you said is pertinent though. Someone with such different morals would not see and acknowledge someone as a bigot and homophobe when people of other morals do.

If the only bad thing about my moral convictions is that I disagree with homosexuality, then I'm happy with that, completely. The ultimate irony is that words like bigot and heterophobe can be applied in turn quite easily, in fact more so. Funny how that works.

reply to post by Freth

The ultimate irony is that words like bigot and heterophobe can be applied in turn quite easily, in fact more so.

It's quite rare in my experience to find people in the LGBT community that feel that way towards the heterosexual orientation.

I fully embrace the heterosexual orientation. Celebrate it. Love that it exists. Have zero qualm with it. Happy they have the rights and privileges they do.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Indeed, when was the last you heard of heterosexuals being called abominations, and being protested against based on their sexuality, or denied certain things based solely on their sexuality

reply to post by Freth

Originally posted by Freth
The simple truth is that most heterosexuals have an aversion to homosexuality and find it disgusting and unnatural.

So what? It's 'icky' is not an excuse to keep others with less rights than yourself. If people thought like this there would still be slaves.

Originally posted by Freth
As a heterosexual male, I find anal sex disgusting and repulsive.

What does this have to do with a male being attracted to another male or a female being attracted to another female?

Originally posted by Freth
My point: A lot of assumptions are made about heterosexuals

Apparently a lot of assumptions are made about homosexuals, too.

Originally posted by Freth
Funny thing is they never stick, because they're based on wild accusation and emotional over-reaction.

Or it could be, because the majority ARE heterosexual so such stereotypes are not mainstream.

Originally posted by Freth
Society can't exist without boundaries and a good moral compass. Seems like today everything is aimed at tearing down boundaries and letting it be a free-for-all.

Oh, you mean like the way it was intended to be since The Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Originally posted by Freth
One other thing. I do agree with the fact that a person's sexuality should be private and shouldn't be flaunted.

Well, you are have the right to your belief and gay people (AND straight people) have the right to be proud of their sexuality all they want. That is freedom of speech and expression.

Originally posted by Freth
If you make it a point to put it in peoples faces all the time

If you are being harassed, you can take it to court. Otherwise, if you consider a guy wearing a dress who is doing nothing to you but just walking down the street to be "rubbing it in your face" - my suggestion is to just stop looking at him and then it won't be in your face.

Originally posted by Freth
don't expect to be respected or treated equal, because you're not trying to be equal, you're trying to be an annoyance to get attention. It's not the right way to go about it.

You're basically saying that since they use freedom of expression by being proud of who they are, they don't deserve the equality of the three rights (Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness) talked about in the declaration of independence intended for all citizens. I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in The Constitution or The Declaration of Independence that if you use freedom of expression you should be denied your other rights which makes you equal to all other citizens.

Originally posted by Freth
I think the main problem is that homosexuals want so very badly to not just have equality, but to change people and make them accept homosexuality in the core of their being. That's not going to happen.

Assumptions, assumptions, assumption, and you'r also speaking as if homosexuals are one big group with one way of life and one philosophy of life. Gay people come in many different colors. (Pun intended).

reply to post by arpgme


nothing else to say but appreciation,

it's intriguing how people make claims about homosexuals, and talk about us like we are not part of the conversation

i will defends anyone freedoms, but we are also afforded the same

reply to post by Puresk1lls


This your second response on this thread! Why are you wasting your time and space/data on the internet?
This doesn't concern you so your "OPINION" is that it is a waste of time and space! To people who are gay this is a matter of importance, to some it is a matter of life and death!
How often has your life been threatened while you were walking down a street just because you were heterosexual? "Never" is the only honest answer I expect from you! Mine has been, more than once, and I was alone, not holding hands with another man, not wearing makeup, I was just being myself in my Levis, a shirt, shoes but I have been threatened and chased!
Stop wasting your time by returning to this thread if it bothers you that much!

reply to post by Freth


Dear Freth,

If the only bad thing about my moral convictions is that I disagree with homosexuality, then I'm happy with that, completely. The ultimate irony is that words like bigot and heterophobe can be applied in turn quite easily, in fact more so. Funny how that works.

Wow, If the only thing you are worried about homosexuals then you really do miss the boat. Shouldn't you worry about how people violate the ten commandments or the commandment Jesus said was the most important more? If you do not then I don't know what to say.

reply to post by arpgme




Your Quote

"Gay people AND straight people have the right to be proud of their sexuality all they want.

That is freedom of speech and expression"


Now this is what I have to disagree with

Pride (noun) a feeling of pleasure from ones own achievements, and 'qualities' be

especially proud of a particular quality or skill

Synonyms >>> arrogance, haughtiness, vanity conceit


So this is my point ... How can anyone be proud of what they personally had nothing to do

with, what is bestowed on them by way of nature ie.> tall, short, long legs, big breasts ,

a lovely singing voice sexuality and so on ........ On the other hand one has every right in

taking 'pride' in what they personally achieve ie > developing their body, improving their

education and knowledge and skills. helping those more unfortunate than themselves doing

good !!..... For those things a person has every right to be proud of themselves......


Nah ... Gay pride? Straight pride? nothing to be 'proud' of You are who you are

you had nothing to do with it, BUT what have you actually DONE to be

proud of??

reply to post by eletheia

Originally posted by eletheia
So this is my point ... How can anyone be proud of what they personally had nothing to do
with, what is bestowed on them by way of nature

what have you actually DONE to be

proud of??

Having the courage to be open about it in spite of the hostility towards the orientation is a rather big accomplishment for many

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Freth

 

Originally posted by Freth
The simple truth is that most heterosexuals have an aversion to homosexuality and find it disgusting and unnatural.

So what? It's 'icky' is not an excuse to keep others with less rights than yourself. If people thought like this there would still be slaves.

Originally posted by Freth
As a heterosexual male, I find anal sex disgusting and repulsive.

What does this have to do with a male being attracted to another male or a female being attracted to another female?

Originally posted by Freth
My point: A lot of assumptions are made about heterosexuals

Apparently a lot of assumptions are made about homosexuals, too.

Originally posted by Freth
Funny thing is they never stick, because they're based on wild accusation and emotional over-reaction.

Or it could be, because the majority ARE heterosexual so such stereotypes are not mainstream.

Originally posted by Freth
Society can't exist without boundaries and a good moral compass. Seems like today everything is aimed at tearing down boundaries and letting it be a free-for-all.

Oh, you mean like the way it was intended to be since The Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Originally posted by Freth
One other thing. I do agree with the fact that a person's sexuality should be private and shouldn't be flaunted.

Well, you are have the right to your belief and gay people (AND straight people) have the right to be proud of their sexuality all they want. That is freedom of speech and expression.

Originally posted by Freth
If you make it a point to put it in peoples faces all the time

If you are being harassed, you can take it to court. Otherwise, if you consider a guy wearing a dress who is doing nothing to you but just walking down the street to be "rubbing it in your face" - my suggestion is to just stop looking at him and then it won't be in your face.

Originally posted by Freth
don't expect to be respected or treated equal, because you're not trying to be equal, you're trying to be an annoyance to get attention. It's not the right way to go about it.

You're basically saying that since they use freedom of expression by being proud of who they are, they don't deserve the equality of the three rights (Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness) talked about in the declaration of independence intended for all citizens. I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in The Constitution or The Declaration of Independence that if you use freedom of expression you should be denied your other rights which makes you equal to all other citizens.

Originally posted by Freth
I think the main problem is that homosexuals want so very badly to not just have equality, but to change people and make them accept homosexuality in the core of their being. That's not going to happen.

Assumptions, assumptions, assumption, and you'r also speaking as if homosexuals are one big group with one way of life and one philosophy of life. Gay people come in many different colors. (Pun intended)

Dear arpgme,

What a wonderful response. Peace from a Christian.

reply to post by eletheia



Respect and self-respect


self-respect

noun

the feeling that you are as important or as good as other people and that you should not allow them to treat you badly


pride

noun

a feeling of respect for yourself


dignity

noun

respect that other people have for you or that you have for yourself


self-worth

noun

the feeling that you are as important as other people and that you deserve to be respected and treated well


stature

noun

the amount of public respect or popularity that someone or something has


stock

noun

the degree to which someone is respected by other people


self-respecting

adjective

used for talking about people who have the qualities that a particular type of person should have


amour propre

noun

respect for yourself


status

noun

a high social position that makes other people respect and admire you


street cred

noun

respect or admiration among young fashionable people, especially in a city

Whether anyone's opinion on homosexuality is that it is 'icky' or not is completely irrelevant. I personally find a number of things icky such as: oysters, old people sex, sex with large age gap, paedophilia, sex with obese people, morbidly obese people, anorexic looking people, fat logic, smoking, fast food, Lutefisk, over-grown body hair, poor hygiene, and fake tan. Never once do I ever comment that these things should be banned or not accepted merely because it grosses me out.

We don't for example, ban Lutefisk just because the majority of the population or myself do not or are not going to like it. If you don't like it, then don't eat it. And if you don't like it, shut up and don't selfishly discriminate against those who DO like it, because it's none of your business.

We DO ban paedophilia because it is child abuse. Not because the majority of the population or myself find it icky.

Now, replace Lutefisk with homosexuality. Get it yet?

And that's why claims of a slippery slope are all nonsense. Homosexuality has nothing to do with paedophilia. Calling it a slippery slope justs arbitrarily links two different things together with the claim that accepting one will lead to the acceptance of the other. Hence using this slippery slope argument is actually a logical fallacy.

Using the slippery slope argument really means that you are selfish and you don't want to see it accepted because you don't like it, but cannot actually make a valid argument. It's irrational and if you're using it against homosexuality then you're by definition a homophobe.

Jesus Christ. The logic and reasoning that was taught to you frightens the hell out of me. Allow me.....

Originally posted by Freth
My logic regarding homosexuality.

You are really misusing that word.

The simple truth is that most heterosexuals have an aversion to homosexuality and find it disgusting and unnatural.

Quantify "most". Like, do you have a link or anything other than your own bigoted opinion to back this up?

Homophobia is the irrational fear of or aversion to homosexuality. I don't consider my opinion as irrational, in fact I consider it quite normal.

Normal is not rational. Matter of fact, humans are irrational creatures. If it is normal, it is lkely irrational. I don't think you understand what "irrational" means.

Now that all of those have failed, I guess I'm just a heterosexual guy with an average and normal opinion on homosexuality, clearly supported by the majority of the human population.

Why does it matter how many people support anything? That is called "mob mentality". Might makes right. That is not liberty.

And once again you make a claim of empiricism. Please validate your claim of "majority of human population". Because I think you are full of made up baloney, and using that to support your fallacious mob mentality.

As a heterosexual male, I find anal sex disgusting and repulsive. I would never even consider it with a woman, much less a man. I'm willing to bet a large number of heterosexuals feel the same way I do. Thus, the anal sex argument is pointless.

Please provide stats to back this up. Because there is an aweful lot of anal sex porn on the internet. I think that you not only just made that up, but that you are wholly and abjectly wrong.

My point: A lot of assumptions are made about heterosexuals, mostly in an attempt to win a point in an argument. Funny thing is they never stick, because they're based on wild accusation and emotional over-reaction.

Takes one to know one, as your argument is pure over reaction and wholly based on your own personal made up statistics of "most people".

And so bestiality and pedophilia don't seem that far-fetched, especially considering the way the country is going. Society can't exist without boundaries and a good moral compass. Seems like today everything is aimed at tearing down boundaries and letting it be a free-for-all.

It isn't often on ATS that a poster achieves the ignorance of using 2 logical fallacies in one thread. Congratulations. You seem prodigious. This is called a "slipper slope" fallacy. Added to your "mob rule fallacy"....i am wondering if you will pull a trifecta?

One other thing. I do agree with the fact that a person's sexuality should be private and shouldn't be flaunted. If you make it a point to put it in peoples faces all the time, don't expect to be respected or treated equal, because you're not trying to be equal, you're trying to be an annoyance to get attention. It's not the right way to go about it.

I can honestly say a gay man has never put anything sexual in my face. And I doubt that they have done so to you. "Flamboyant behavior" is not flaunting anything, its behaving.

I don't care if you're a homosexual. I don't care what you do in your bedroom.

Yes you do. You called them perverts.

How hard is it to understand that there are still people in this country that have strong moral convictions about right, wrong and what is normal? Doesn't make them bigots, homophobes or anything else, just good people with traditional ideals.

NO one other than themselves is making them a bigot or homophobe. I don't care what "normal" is. I only care about "right" and "wrong". And they are "wrong".

The key is to treat people like fellow human beings,

Unless they are gay. Then they are perverts who will probably eventually be a pedophile or dog humper.

I think the main problem is that homosexuals want so very badly to not just have equality, but to change people and make them accept homosexuality in the core of their being. That's not going to happen.

edit on 3-7-2013 by Freth because: (no reason given)

How about just not calling them perverts, or accusing them of pedophilia or beastiality? I mean, that seems reasonable.

reply to post by C0bzz


Dear C0bzz,

Drat, I am old, smoke and overweight. I couldn't manage all of the things you find icky; but, I am trying my best. I shall tell you what this all about. We refuse to take responsibility for being corrupt and killers, so many choose to blame our downfall on gay marriage.They are cowards and selfish.

The thing I find ridiculous and concerns me is the number of straight people that are worried that if they are around gays, they might become gay. I don't have that fear because I can talk to gay people everyday and still will be straight. I never worry that I might turn gay, it is not a virus and I am confident in my sexuality. I worry about people that are not secure in being themselves.

Originally posted by C0bzz


We DO ban paedophilia because it is child abuse. Not because the majority of the population or myself find it icky.

Now, replace Lutefisk with homosexuality. Get it yet?

And that's why claims of a slippery slope are all nonsense. Homosexuality has nothing to do with paedophilia. Calling it a slippery slope justs arbitrarily links two different things together with the claim that accepting one will lead to the acceptance of the other. Hence using this slippery slope argument is actually a logical fallacy.
.

edit on 4/7/13 by C0bzz because: (no reason given)

Homosexuality was once socially in the same position (by the APA) as paedophilia .The APA (American Psychiatry Association) have been debating whether they will 
change the status of pedophilia from a mental illness to a sexual preference choice. This decision is monumental, as it could open the way to the legalization of paedophilia,. The APA hosted a symposium discussing the removal of pedophilia, along with other categories of mental illness (collectively known as paraphilia) from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).It’s a disorder of sexual preference similar to how homosexuality was believed to be before it became legal and not a mental illness.
Thats where the repeated reference to paedophilia in all homosexual debates probably comes from they are both just sexual preferences, (both were categorized by the APA as mental disorders).

I think the whole thing is nonsense and divides us away from all being human beings.
How has a sexual preference in a culture become an identity?

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by 0ptw0

 

There's homosexuality the sexual preference

Preference to me sounds like choice, it's not choice to have the orientation. To express it, it *kinda is a choice. You can abstain from sex but to completely suppress all the aspects of the sexual orientation? You'd have to be quite the monk!

and there's homosexuality the "act." The act of homosexuality is anything sexual

Thanks for answering. That's what I was unsure of. Yes sex is an act of homosexuality. As is kissing and holding hands. I know plenty of heterosexual people that are not bothered by seeing casual displays of affection from homosexual couples.

would say the majority of the population is inherently disturbed by homosexual acts no matter how "gay-friendly" they may be.

I won't speak for things I don't have first-hand experience of in this point. I haven't ever been to these really gay-friendly countries/places.

I feel like we're going to have a circular argument here because now we're entering the realms of what it means to be a homosexual. I'm not interested in discussing whether you are born homosexual or become homosexual. I feel this argument would get way too heated if we did.

One couldn't possibly know whether public displays of affection by homosexuals disturb heterosexual people for certain because you'll never get a straight answer out of us. It comes down to what you believe at that point, just know it goes against social intuition to display signs of intolerance for homosexuals at this day in age. The implication is there.

Well I'm not about to go polling people publicly or do anything more than have a casual conversation on a forum pertaining to sexual orientation. Homosexuality is a direct challenge to heterosexuality though, and I personally don't agree with it. I want to have children, and I want my children to have children, etc. I believe in procreation. I respect the homosexual community, but I do not agree with what they are doing, they are deteriorating traditional beliefs. Freth's post hit the nail on the head. Homosexuals try to make this a moral argument when it encompasses so much more than that, it is a direct challenge to traditional lifestyle. It's another divide and conquer thing where sides will be picked, feelings will get hurt, and people will learn to put up with one another and/or learn to get along. That's life.

Indeed, and i and many others have stated we will defend your freedom and personal belief and thought, and speech,

I respect the homosexual community, but I do not agree with what they are doing, they are deteriorating traditional beliefs.

how are we deteriorating traditional beliefs when we are just acting how we were born?

and it's what no one can give a straight (no pun intended) answer to, how would you have us act?

reply to post by wiser3




Not saying it's right but ...Bullying and ostracising has gone on for ever


In my time (I go back a long way) it was 'the fatties' (back then there were never more than

a couple in a school)... now that the majority are over weight ... the 'fattie' no longer stands

out ...

Then it was the 'ginger nuts' nowadays there doesn't seem to be so many natural red heads

and as 'red' has now become a popular hair dye colour they are no longer the butt of 'herd

mentality vindictiveness'

If anyone has older children on fb they will know there is much bullying and ganging up goes

on there.

Then there's the religious bullying of >>> Jews, Catholics, Muslims Christians etc. (Funny thing

it's just occurred to me the atheist never seems to have been bullied wonder what

that means?)

Such minor reasons for unpleasantness ... to my mind it is the one who takes the high ground

in these matters who is usually short on 'self esteem'


However some words there were a constant in my growing up ( and remember I have already

said I go back a long time) and what was oft repeated to my children and grand-children

*** Respect is earned not given

*** Respect yourself and others will respect you

*** Respect is a two way street if you want to get it, you have to give it

*** If your never better than ..Your always as good as


Something I came across quite recently and rather liked >>> He that respects himself is

safe from others; He wears a coat of mail that none can pierce ~ Longfellow ~

reply to post by eletheia

Pride (noun) a feeling of pleasure from ones own achievements, and 'qualities' be especially proud of a particular quality or skill

Being gay is a quality. Being straight is a quality. Being tall is a quality. Having blond hair is a quality. All are things to be proud of, as there is nothing greater than being proud of who you are.

I honestly feel sorry for people that cant see individuality as being something to be proud of.