Judaism, Still Waiting For A Messiah ?

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

Not to say who's right or wrong, but the world translated as "virgin" by Christians was "almah" which merely means a young woman of childbearing age who has not had a child, either married or unmarried.
It occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible.

The verses surrounding Isaiah 7:14 tell how Ahaz, the king of Judah, is told of a sign to be given in demonstration that the prophet's promise of God's protection is a true one. The sign is that an almah will give birth to a son who will still be very young when Judah's enemies will be destroyed. The almah is already pregnant, and Jewish translators have therefore rendered it as "young woman". Christian translations have traditionally rendered it as "virgin," where Isaiah's almah is identified with the Virgin Mary.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Phoenix267


Well, the Jews aren't going to get their wish of a mere human to lead them, for it's not possible for a man to conquer the whole world when the whole world turns against them. I don't understand why they haven't figured that out yet, but then God's timing and the opening of their eyes is his to bestow.

ETA: Unless, God actually resurrects King David to rule over them during the Millennial period.

reply to post by Deetermined


Yes, Judaism is waiting for a Messiah who will be a human. In Judaism God has oneness that cannot be divided or they believe he cannot become a man.

reply to post by Phoenix267


Can you rephrase that because it sounded contradictory? Can you go into more detail?

reply to post by Deetermined


Sorry my bad. In Judaism the concept of God has evolved where he has a oneness and they believe he cannot divide himself into parts and he cannot become a human or change his nature in any shape. Judaism is very similar to Islam where God is one and all powerful. Hopefully this explains it better.

Originally posted by Phoenix267
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and explain why Jews do not see Isaiah 7:14 does not relate to Jesus. Since we don't have Jewish members or members who post about Judaism I thought I would share why Jews and Christians different on the bible.

Rabbi Tovia Singer was asked this question by different individual and replied in different ways to cover all points. I will share his answer about the word "alma" and how in Judaism is does not mean virgin.

In Christianity Jesus is believed to have been prophesied to be born of a virgin and will be the promise Messiah. They source various verses like Isaiah 7:14 to explain how it foreshadowed his virgin birth. However, in Judaism they see the verse differently. The word alma in Hebrew means "young woman" and does not indicate anything relating to virginity. Have they wanted to use the word virgin it would be "betulah" that expresses sexual purity. This is one of many reasons I do not see Isaiah 7:14 does not relate to Jesus.

Source

I'm not fluent in Hebrew so I can't say for sure what the word means. But this doesn't solve the problem. The prophecy states that the child will be called Immanuel, which was the name given to Jesus. Are the Jews saying that when the Messiah comes his name will be Immanuel? Or will he have a different name?

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


I was explaining how the word is interpreted differently and one of the reasons why in Judaism that verse doesn't apply to Jesus. I have the book by Rabbi Tovia Singer where he explains more on the verse. I'll have to browse through it. Can you share how Christians see Jesus as Immanuel in Matthew.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker


Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

The word used in the original Hebrew is "Alma" which means young woman. Its is actually a feminized version of "young man". The Hebrew word for virgin is "Betula".
Semantics-wise it doesnt really matter as the verse is taken out of context as all text before and after this verse is speaking directly to King Ahaz, not some Hippie dude.
It is meant to say that King Ahaz's wife would conceive a child and that she would name it Immanuel and that would be a sign to to compel the Hebrews of the time to repent from their naughty ways.

reply to post by Phoenix267


Thanks! Unfortunately, the Jews are just going to have to accept who God sends them if they don't want to miss the boat a second time!

During the Millennial period, Jesus will be ruling himself from the throne...

Zechariah 13:6

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

reply to post by Deetermined


It's interesting seeing what everyone believes. To be honest I'm just debating for fun and expressing what I have learn from Jews who would consider themselves anti missionaries. To me it's faith and how they express their beliefs. Jesus birth, life, death, and resurrection is central to the Christian religion. Because it's their bridge to salvation. In Judaism is very different and even more confusing. With the different translations, traditions, etc. It's hard to get a straight answer.

Originally posted by dashen

It is meant to say that King Ahaz's wife would conceive a child and that she would name it Immanuel and that would be a sign to to compel the Hebrews of the time to repent from their naughty ways.

Isaiah 7:14-16

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Without even acknowledging the word "virgin", this prophecy is still about Jesus being born and being the one who knows how to refuse evil. It's saying that Judah and Israel will split and be without any king while Jesus is becoming of age and getting ready to fill that gap.

Originally posted by Deetermined


Zechariah 13:6

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

again way out of context.

a few verses earlier... Zecharia 13:3

"It will happen when a man will prophesy (falsely) in the future and his father and mother who bore him will say to him'you should not live for you have spoken falsehoods in the name of the L-rd!'. His father and Mother, those who bore him will stab him when he prophesies".
In general this whole chapter of Zechariah is addressing the false prophets from the land. It really pays to read the whole thing.
Your quote is addressing the wounds they have on thier arms from their parents trying to stop their false prophecies, and the false prophets lame excuses for why their predictions failed to pan out

Originally posted by Deetermined
forsaken of both her kings.

Without even acknowledging the word "virgin", this prophecy is still about Jesus being born and being the one who knows how to refuse evil. It's saying that Judah and Israel will split and be without any king while Jesus is becoming of age and getting ready to fill that gap.

edit on 25-6-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

Okie dokie. So when exactly was Jesus King of Israel? Where is Jesus Castle?
Whom exactly did he rule over?
Isnt it more accurate to say he died early, at a time when very few people had even heard of him, and only many years later did his story and fame spread.

reply to post by Phoenix267


That's one thing that the disciples fought over. Whether or not the Jews or new Christians should be practicing Mosaic Law. In the end, the disciples decided to let the people decide for themselves what they wanted to do, since Jesus allowed it. If they think practicing these laws brings them closer to God, so be it. I'm sure all of these laws will serve some kind of purpose during the Millennial period while they're learning who God really is.

reply to post by dashen


You're right. They didn't allow Jesus to make it that far, that's why Judah and Israel are still split today, but Ezekiel 37 tells us that Jesus will bring the two back together again during the Millennial period and he will be reigning over them all.

reply to post by dashen


No, those verses are telling us that they won't need to prophesy any longer because EVERYONE will know who the Messiah (Jesus) is.

Those who try to claim differently or prophesying at all will probably be killed for doing so.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by dashen

 

You're right. They didn't allow Jesus to make it that far, that's why Judah and Israel are still split today, but Ezekiel 37 tells us that Jesus will bring the two back together again during the Millennial period and he will be reigning over them all.

Where in Sam Hill does it say all that? It talks about the progeny of Joseph, Ephraim, something about some wood. 37:24 "My servant David will be King over them....." Nothing about no Jesus

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by dashen

 

No, those verses are telling us that they won't need to prophesy any longer because EVERYONE will know who the Messiah (Jesus) is.

Those who try to claim differently or prophesying at all will probably be killed for doing so.

edit on 25-6-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

Wha? where? how? Quote please.

reply to post by dashen


"My servant David" is Jesus. Jesus is the son of David from the human standpoint of ancestry.

Originally posted by Phoenix267
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I was explaining how the word is interpreted differently and one of the reasons why in Judaism that verse doesn't apply to Jesus. I have the book by Rabbi Tovia Singer where he explains more on the verse. I'll have to browse through it. Can you share how Christians see Jesus as Immanuel in Matthew.

No offense, but don't rely on 1 rabbi's interpretation of the scriptures. I can't speak for all Christians, but for me the Gospels tell a story of the real Messiah. Like I said before, the first Christians were Jews, these guys knew the prophecies very well. If Jesus was the fake Messiah there is no way his story would have survived this long. Don't forget, that there were many people running around claiming to be the Messiah, even doing great miracles at the same time of Jesus. But it is clear those guys were a joke. Jesus captured the attention of all the kings, I think that says alot about who he was.