Judaism, Still Waiting For A Messiah ?

I recently saw a comment from Jewish woman as to why she abandoned Judaism for Christianity.
Although at first she defended her religion with intense vigor. This point was made to her, the Torah clearly states that the Messiah would come through King David's linage and it could be proven, it would not be disputed or guessed at. This is the point that got her, in 70 AD the Romans burned Jerusalem and it's temple they destroyed all the records. She came to realize the Messiah had to come before 70 AD, and all prophesy indicates this was Jesus Christ, an undisputed descendant of King David from both sides of the family. The Jews never disputed this point because there was proof at the time.

Remember too what the Jewish Messiah was suppose to do from the Jewish perspective, throw off the imperialistic shackles of a Roman world power, get them their independent country back. Today they have that and more, not only has the world powers given them their country back they support them very aggressively.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


According to scripture in the Torah, Israel is to become a vast kingdom again that stretches from Jerusalem to the Tigris and Euphrates. As of today, and the re-inception of the state of Israel, the above mentioned Kingdom has not been established. The Jewish faith indoctrinates the coming of the Messiah to establish such a Kingdom, so the argument that the Messiah has already come and he was Jesus Christ is not congruent with the lady's logic you have posted. She is free to interpret the Torah and Bible in any way she wishes, however, according to both Texts, her finding is not factually based nor prophetically aligned. Judaism and Christianity are very kind to each base of teaching, but the coming of the Messiah is specific for both versions of salvation and they do not line up in the past or present. Only the Messianic Event will bring light to what is to come and speculation only divides faith. Last I checked, the Temple has not been re-built either according to the standards set forth in the New Testament. Has it happened in the past? Possibly, but all evidence is subject to time and inconclusive records, plus, if it did, and Christ was the coming of the Messiah, then we are all living in Hell right now. Well, at least from the Christian perspective, because Judaism does not teach Hell as Christians believe to know. Pay no attention to the attempts of "faith flippers" to prove a point one way or another, for to question one's own faith and attempt to convince others of wrongful faith is a sin and to be a heretic. It does not matter what religion you practice, if and when the Messiah comes we will all see the union of our faiths that allow for spiritual convergence. What we must be aware and prepared for are the heretics and false prophets proclaiming they are God and their "light" is the truth. Note, one who proclaims the truth must verbalize it and provide proof to skeptics for their discernment and judgement. When the Messiah comes, he will not proclaim or defend his true existence, rather, he will act swiftly and what is true will be gathered and safeguarded from the impending rapture and judgement of impure and deceitful souls. We all need to get our hearts and minds right and be prepared to recognize the Messiah in his moment of return, for not all will see the true light.

reply to post by Boscov


Just as first century Judaism has changed so has first century Christianity, the question is, are both generally and generically farther from the their own biblical truths in 2013 that they had back then ?
Or has it been corrupted by the wolves in sheep camouflage ? Corruption of truth never changes it, but it does obscure it with hypocrisy. Something both religions fell victim too, and at great cost.

reply to post by Boscov

The Jewish faith indoctrinates the coming of the Messiah to establish such a Kingdom, so the argument that the Messiah has already come and he was Jesus Christ is not congruent with the lady's logic you have posted.

If you read the Bible, Jesus will fulfill the promises that God made to the Jews during the Millennial period, after they've come to the realization that Jesus was indeed who he said he was.

This is a future event and the Bible talks extensively about what the Millennial Kingdom will be like when it happens.

It's all been laid out in the Old Testament, even without the New Testament. Some of them just didn't realize it until Jesus came along to confirm it.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Or has it been corrupted by the wolves in sheep camouflage ?

Those wolves are the New Age, Enlightened, Love and Light seekers who are leading everyone to believe that the Bible is corrupt and that truth can only be found by seeking out contact with spirits and demons themselves in order to know their "truth".

reply to post by Deetermined


I am neither a prophet nor adjudicated to discern the correct accounts and foretelling of any Messianic Events. I am not "on the fence" or proclaiming knowledge to verifiable records of scripture. I have read the Torah and Bible, OT and NT. Both have been picked apart for their differences and compared to search for ONE coherent and congruent truth. This truth has not been revealed to all of humanity yet. I believe Christ did come and offered inner sanctuary for salvation to come and to ease the burden of sin upon humanity. I do not need to see the Messiah or his witness his actions to find faith, nor will I speculate like a heretic as to what, who, when, where, why, and how testaments and scripture are to be interpreted. My statement you quoted was pointing out that faith lies within each individuals hearts, minds, and soul, and is not to be projected to influence any truth findings or disprove anyone else's interpretation of scriptures. The lady is free to change faiths, and share her insights, nothing more and certainly not to be silenced. Jesus' Kingdom is not up for debate, as if somehow borders and territories will prove anything. Jesus speaks of a Kingdom within as sanctuary and begs for us to seek it now. Judaism believes physical oppression will be alleviated here on Earth and that the oppressed will be provided physical sanctuary and rightful belonging for those who are persecuted, so they may flourish spiritually and physically. Both faiths believe in the Rapture to come. Whether or not the Messiah has come already or not is of no consequence to his return, and where we will reside before and after judgement will not even be an afterthought for either saved or damned souls. Arguing historical accuracy about these manners is exactly what has led us to question our own and others beliefs and faith. To what end? I do not want to be caught up in conversation and debate of faith so as to be blind to the true light when it shines.

Yes, the Jews are still waiting for the promised Messiah. There are a number of requirements for the Messiah in Judaism. Like being a descendent of both Kings David and Solomon; to be a great leader and knowledgeable of the Torah. There is more online I can find for you later. It's interesting the differences and similarities between religions.

Jesus died. Like almost two thousand years ago. nobody has seen him since. Save the rogue appearance in grilled cheese sandwiches or in the imaginations of children.

According to Jewish tradition the lineage of Kingship is inherited paternally ONLY.
In order for J-man to be considered a true Jewish King, his father would have had to been a royal scion.
But wait.... immaculate conception!
By the law of the times a bastard baby born into a un-consumated marriage would not be eligible for Kingship, let alone marriage into the general population.
Many false messiahs have tried to steer the Jews here and there, Jesus, Sabbatai Tzvi, and others in more recent times, yet for all their promises, here we are. The world still sucks. evil men still control everything. Nothing has changed. Millions killed in Jesus name by the church over the millenia. Witch trials, burning at the stake, crusades, the world is flat or i will kill you campaigns in Jesus' name.
How anyone can ever convert to Christianity because it makes sense is beyond my understanding

reply to post by Boscov


I'm only bringing some detail to what you've said. I've already given you stars for what you say, I'm just elaborating on them.

Originally posted by Phoenix267

Yes, the Jews are still waiting for the promised Messiah. There are a number of requirements for the Messiah in Judaism. Like being a descendent of both Kings David and Solomon; to be a great leader and knowledgeable of the Torah. There is more online I can find for you later. It's interesting the differences and similarities between religions.

That's why the complete Bible includes both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

They both have the same God, (most) Jews just haven't come to that realization yet.

For those who have, they are called Messianic Jews.

reply to post by Deetermined


There is differences between the Hebrew bible and the old testament found in the Christian bible. Yes it's confusing because of how both faiths different on the translations and what is written. In Christianity you'll see a number of verses preceding Jesus like Isaiah 7:14 or Isaiah 53 where Christians see these verses prophesying Jesus birth and crucifixion. In Judaism the verses have different meanings because Jesus is not relevant in Judaism.

reply to post by Phoenix267


Here's what Jesus told the Israelites and the Jews...

Luke 24:44

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The question is when or if they ever "hear" Jesus' voice in their scriptures through the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent.

For those who are meant to hear the Spirit, they will hear it. That's why the Bible always uses the phrase, "For those who have ears, let them hear".

reply to post by Deetermined


I wouldn't be surprise there are verses where Jesus, his disciples, and others preach to both the Jews and gentiles. It's just confusing because there are so many different interpretations in my opinion.

reply to post by Phoenix267


In my opinion, the Jews won't hear the Holy Spirit until Jesus is closer to fulfilling those scriptures.

Unfortunately, those scriptures (Zechariah) include two thirds of the Jews being cut off in the process and a third of them hearing His voice before they finally start to realize who Jesus is and the rest of the promises being fulfilled.

reply to post by Deetermined


I recall reading about that verse (Zechariah) from a anti-missionary Jewish website. I'll have to dig it up again. I understand where you're coming from with your comments. It's just confusing because I just see what different people believe in and I'll say this what "x" believes in and "Y" believes in and how their views are both different and similar.

reply to post by Phoenix267


The time will come when there will be a mutual understanding. Unfortunately, that time hasn't come yet.

reply to post by Deetermined

That's why the complete Bible includes both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

There are books called the Holy Bible that you can buy from book stores, and there was a council of the Catholic Church that decided on a canon that included the Old Testament books, but the Christian Bible is the New Testament. The Old Testament is a sort of appendix so people can see where some of the quotes in the NT come from.
The Old Testament is called that by Christians for a reason, which is that it has been superseded by the New Testament.
It does not any longer hold any authority other than what is carried over into the New Testament, such as the Ten Commandments in a general sort of way. The main interest in the OT by Christians is that Jesus' coming as the Messiah was predicted in the prophecies found in its scriptures.

They both have the same God . . .

Obviously God has been around for as long as people have existed, so God was working in the world during OT times. God could inspire the writers to say things that could later be recalled by Jesus and used by him in certain circumstances. Despite all of that Jesus does not endorse the religion of his day, nor does he even recognize that it had any sort of proper understanding of who or what God was.

From what I gathered after watching several sermons on the Jews for Jesus and their Jewish critics on Youtube two things are salient:

- the Jewish Messiah will not be divine or partly divine, or claim to be so
- everyone will clearly know he is the true Messiah and accept him as such with clear and indisputable recognition.

Here are some more general criteria and verses:

www.religionfacts.com...

Originally posted by dashen
Jesus died. Like almost two thousand years ago. nobody has seen him since. Save the rogue appearance in grilled cheese sandwiches or in the imaginations of children.

According to Jewish tradition the lineage of Kingship is inherited paternally ONLY.
In order for J-man to be considered a true Jewish King, his father would have had to been a royal scion.
But wait.... immaculate conception!
By the law of the times a bastard baby born into a un-consumated marriage would not be eligible for Kingship, let alone marriage into the general population.
Many false messiahs have tried to steer the Jews here and there, Jesus, Sabbatai Tzvi, and others in more recent times, yet for all their promises, here we are. The world still sucks. evil men still control everything. Nothing has changed. Millions killed in Jesus name by the church over the millenia. Witch trials, burning at the stake, crusades, the world is flat or i will kill you campaigns in Jesus' name.
How anyone can ever convert to Christianity because it makes sense is beyond my understanding

edit on 25-6-2013 by dashen because: (no reason given)

It's clear you don't know the prophecies of how the Messiah would come, otherwise you would not have made that post.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

If the Jews can show that this prophecy has already been fulfilled (let me rephrase that, If the Jews can prove that this prophecy was not fulfilled by Jesus) then they would have proof that Jesus was not the Messiah which the Old Testament speaks of. So either Jesus was the real Messiah, or the one they are waiting for will have to be born of a virgin.

Let's also keep in mind that the first Christians where Jews, they converted because they understood the prophecies.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and explain why Jews do not see Isaiah 7:14 does not relate to Jesus. Since we don't have Jewish members or members who post about Judaism I thought I would share why Jews and Christians different on the bible.

Rabbi Tovia Singer was asked this question by different individual and replied in different ways to cover all points. I will share his answer about the word "alma" and how in Judaism is does not mean virgin.

In Christianity Jesus is believed to have been prophesied to be born of a virgin and will be the promise Messiah. They source various verses like Isaiah 7:14 to explain how it foreshadowed his virgin birth. However, in Judaism they see the verse differently. The word alma in Hebrew means "young woman" and does not indicate anything relating to virginity. Have they wanted to use the word virgin it would be "betulah" that expresses sexual purity. This is one of many reasons I do not see Isaiah 7:14 does not relate to Jesus.

Source