Priests Urge Nancy Pelosi to Condemn Abortion or Leave the Catholic Church

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posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

Dear Benevolent Heretic,

I responded to your U2U as requested, also the post prior to yours. I hope it satisfies.


If this pro-life group had hired her, then yes, she should be fired.
Then what's wrong with calling for her to "resign" from the Catholic Church? She applied to it, was accepted into it, started breaking the rules flamboyantly, and we're supposed to be concerned that she's being asked to find another group or mend her ways?


But her religion is between her and her God.
Nonsense. Balderdash. If it was, why does she keep talking about it in press conferences? Now Romney didn't want to talk about his religion, but Pelosi trumpets it.


And this group is being hypocritical by calling on her to leave the church when they have nothing to say about the thousands of Catholic women who use birth control and have abortions.
Of course the Church has something to say about it. It's been condemned since before I was an embryo. How it's handled in the case of Mrs. Willheim down the street? That's between her and her Priest, but the Church is clear on it's teachings about abortion.

With respect,
Charles1952




posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by charles1952
 



Originally posted by charles1952
If you are honest, you will say that that person should be fired as non-representative of the group


If this pro-life group had hired her, then yes, she should be fired. But her religion is between her and her God.

No, her faith is between her and God. The church provides her services as a part of their religious activities, and if she rejects the church's teachings, as her support of abortion demonstrates that she does, then the church is within its rights to refuse her access to those services. Personally, I think that any Roman Catholic politician who opening supports abortion rights should be ex-communicated and refused service at Mass.

As Charles said, let her go join a church that is better aligned with her core beliefs... I believe that the American Episcopal Church is currently looking for members



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 
reply to post by charles1952
 


Do all Catholics that disagree with certain doctrine of the church, for example, their position on condoms, risk ex-communication? Is the Church more concerned with papal opinions and decrees than with the words of Jesus and the salvation of their members? I mean, if a Catholic believes the only way to salvation is through Jesus' church and believes in the trinity, the virgin birth, the sacrifice of Christ and his resurrection, but disagree with the church's position on condoms and openly and freely distributes them, should that person be ex-communicated, and therefore destined to hell?

Isn't that attitude the same as the one that Jesus encountered when he was presented with the adulteress? Who should cast the first stone, and ex-communicate Nancy Pelosi for her position of a woman's right to choice? Will they then ex-communicate the doctors that preform abortions, their nurses? What about the doctors that distribute birth control? Ex-communicate them too, I suppose.

There are movements, within the church itself, that are demanding changes in church doctrine regarding female clergy, gay marriage and the lifting of the ban on birth control. I'm pretty sure that Ms Pelosi would align with and support these women.


Sister Pat Farrell, the departing president of the nuns’ group, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, said at a news conference that the members of her organization wanted to be “recognized as equal in the church,” to have their style of religious life “respected and affirmed,” and to help create a climate in which everyone in the church can talk about “issues that are very complicated.”

---------------------

The Vatican accused the group of promoting “radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith” and “corporate dissent” against church teachings, like those prohibiting the ordination of women to the priesthood, same-sex relationships and artificial birth control.
www.nytimes.com...


Nuns reject Vatican charges of radical feminism



The Catholic Church needs to embrace change.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 07:48 PM
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Congresswoman, Nancy Pelosi, is a walking contradiction. Typical politician that speaks so eloquently out of the side of their mouth, and with a forked tongue. Says one thing and does another. You know, kiss the baby's cheek and steal the lolli pop when mom and dad aren't looking. That is Nancy Pelosi.

She strikes me as one of those fair weather Catholics? Attending Mass on Christmas and Easter, loves the rituals, but shudders away from the heavy lifting that is involved. As far as abortion goes and according to the Catholic Church, it is forbidden! If she does not want to adhere to that core belief? Then she has a serious conflict on her hands. Furthermore, she should recuse herself from government. She will not though, because that power is so satisfying. Just another hypocrite, and there are scores of them these days. I recall another politician from the Bible that washed his hands. A lot of hand washing going on in Washington.
edit on 24-6-2013 by Jakes51 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Do you honestly believe that Jesus would be favour of abortion rights?

Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are not simply Roman Catholics who see things differently than the church, or live their lives in a fashion believed by the church to be wrong -- they are actively involved in the promotion and enabling of an activity that results in hundreds of thousands of deaths annually.


The Catholic Church needs to embrace change.

The church is what it is, and it will not embrace change when it is contrary to the beliefs, values and teachings of the church. You want to see an example of a church that changes for change's sakes? That would be the American Episcopal Church, which is coming apart at the seams, largely as a result of the downright anti-Christian teachings of their bishopric.

If you don't agree with the Catholic church, then don't belong to it -- that works for you, and it should similarly work for Pelosi.

edit on 24-6-2013 by adjensen because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:10 PM
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reply to post by Jakes51
 





As far as abortion goes and according to the Catholic Church, it is forbidden! If she does not want to adhere to that core belief? Then she has a serious conflict on her hands.


Did Nancy Pelosi get an abortion? Is she urging women to get abortions? No. She is defending their right to choose. She is protecting their right to safe, affordable and accessible feminine health care, including birth control and abortion. You don't think that politicians should force their religious beliefs on their constituents do you?

The Catholic Church also considers the Pill, the IUD, NORPLANT, the Morning After Pill and any hormonal birth control to cause abortion. Pew Research claims that 98% of sexually active Catholic women use artificial contraception. 27% of women who had abortions claimed to be Catholic. Talk about hypocrites.


Furthermore, she should recuse herself from government. She will not though, because that power is so satisfying. Just another hypocrite, and there are scores of them these days.


Why should she recuse herself? Because you think she's a hypocrite?



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

Dear Benevolent Heretic,

I responded to your U2U as requested, also the post prior to yours. I hope it satisfies.


If this pro-life group had hired her, then yes, she should be fired.
Then what's wrong with calling for her to "resign" from the Catholic Church? She applied to it, was accepted into it, started breaking the rules flamboyantly, and we're supposed to be concerned that she's being asked to find another group or mend her ways?


But her religion is between her and her God.
Nonsense. Balderdash. If it was, why does she keep talking about it in press conferences? Now Romney didn't want to talk about his religion, but Pelosi trumpets it.


And this group is being hypocritical by calling on her to leave the church when they have nothing to say about the thousands of Catholic women who use birth control and have abortions.
Of course the Church has something to say about it. It's been condemned since before I was an embryo. How it's handled in the case of Mrs. Willheim down the street? That's between her and her Priest, but the Church is clear on it's teachings about abortion.

With respect,
Charles1952


The church may be clear on it's teachings but not on enforcing them. She alone shouldn't be held to follow hypocritical orders while others are not simply because of her political position. Shouldn't all members be held to the same standards, and this isn't the case here.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:17 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 





Do you honestly believe that Jesus would be favour of abortion rights?


I don't think that Jesus would support the Pope or the Vatican if he were here today.

I think Jesus would oppose all form of injustice. Forcing women into an unwanted pregnancy would be one of them. I don't believe that a modern day Jesus would be opposed to birth control, female clergy or same sex marriage.

I think that he would be in favor of modern medicine, including stem cell research, birth control and In Vitro.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by windword
 



I don't think that Jesus would support the Pope or the Vatican if he were here today.

That isn't what I asked you, is it?

Do you believe that Jesus would be in favour of abortion rights, the issue that is being raised as regards Nancy Pelosi?



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by windword
 



I don't think that Jesus would support the Pope or the Vatican if he were here today.

That isn't what I asked you, is it?

Do you believe that Jesus would be in favour of abortion rights, the issue that is being raised as regards Nancy Pelosi?


The issue about Pelosi is should she be held to higher standards by the Catholic church than other members and if so, why.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by windword
 



I don't think that Jesus would support the Pope or the Vatican if he were here today.

That isn't what I asked you, is it?

Do you believe that Jesus would be in favour of abortion rights, the issue that is being raised as regards Nancy Pelosi?


YES!



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:36 PM
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Priests or Catholics in general have a lot of nerve lecturing anyone on morality, Pelosi included!!!

Have they forgotten or just disregard the pedophile scandal in the priesthood that is still on going and it's coverup?

rationalwiki.org...

Let he without sin....and all that jazz!




Hypocrite-ville!!


Indeed!!!
edit on 24-6-2013 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

Dear windword, I'm really sorry that I haven't been able to communicate my thoughts to you. Honestly, I've tried. Aw, heck, let me give it another shot.

Your post is in two parts. One, if the Church doesn't excommunicate every person who sins or has a wrong belief, they hve no right to excommunicate anyone. That's a level of discipline not seen even in the Democrat party. Pelosi says "I don't accept some of the basic teachings of the Church, but I'm a perfectly good and faithful member." Doesn't that sound odd, even to you? And she says it over and over, across the country, encouraging confusion, doubt, and division.

Doctors and individuals bring their problems and doubts to the priest, the proper thing to do. If they can't resolve it, it can go to the Bishop. But there comes a time when it just makes sense to say "If you're going to keep proudly making goals for the opponent, straighten out or leave." Or are you saying that only churches don't have the right to determine who their members are and to deal with disciplinary problems internally?

Two,

The Catholic Church needs to embrace change.
How do you have any business prescribing that? Do you know the Church? Love the Church? Want it to be a strong beacon of faith? Or do you simply want it to embrace your positions? Positions it has already rejected at the highest levels.

The nuns are in a similar position. The leader you mention isn't just leaving, she's being replaced for her failures, and repeated flouting of Church rules and authority.

For some people, the Church is a villian simply because it won't change it's basic principles, and is willing to discipline (in varying degrees) flagrant violations. That's a good thing.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by windword
 



I don't think that Jesus would support the Pope or the Vatican if he were here today.

That isn't what I asked you, is it?

Do you believe that Jesus would be in favour of abortion rights, the issue that is being raised as regards Nancy Pelosi?


YES!

Well, since the only place that we find evidence of what Jesus taught in his time and would likely teach in ours is in the New Testament, kindly point out in scripture where he promoted the murder of innocents because they "inconvenienced" someone who was pregnant and didn't want to be.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


What makes you think that Jesus thought that abortion was murder? Jewish tradition didn't recognize a fetus as being a person. As I mentioned earlier, abortion was a remedy given by God himself to Moses in Numbers Chapter 5.

Women, midwives etc. have been giving abortions to other women for thousands of years. Jesus never spoke out against "women's" workings in that area. Abortion wasn't illegal in Rome, at the time of the life of Jesus. It wasn't until 200 years later that Christianity ruled on abortion law.


No evidences exists for the illegality of abortion under the Roman republic. Attitudes changes with the spread of Christianity and around 211 CE emperors Septimius Severus and Caracalla banned abortion as infringing on parental rights; temporary exile was the punishment.[16] This new attitude is reflected in the third century legal compilation Pauli sententiae (attributed to Julius Paulus Prudentissimus):

[T]hose who administer a beverage for the purpose of producing abortion, or of causing affection, although they may not do so with malicious intent, still, because the act offers a bad example, shall, if of humble rank, be sent to the mines; or, if higher in degree, shall be relegated to an island, with the loss of a portion of their property. If a man or a woman should lose his or her life through such an act, the guilty party shall undergo the extreme penalty.
en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 08:54 PM
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Why has this thread gone off the rails? The child abuse scandal again?

Come on, how about an analysis of the questions. Is it coherent for Pelosi to say she's a good and faithful Catholic while rejecting the Church's teachings. If you say yes, I'd really like to know how that conclusion is reached.

If you say no, it's not coherent, then what is wrong with telling her to bring her views into line on this issue, or join another group?

We can (and many have) attacked the Church on lots of threads. Primarily on a few issues, child abuse, the gazillions of dollars of gold they have, and their beliefs which any progressive caring soul should see as false. It's been done, but this seems to be new.

Can we get back to Pelosi?



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 09:00 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
 


Abortion wasn't illegal in Rome, at the time of the life of Jesus. It wasn't until 200 years later that Christianity ruled on abortion law.

Once again, that isn't what I asked you -- Jesus was not Roman, nor was he fond of Pharisaic Law.

Where does he teach the murder of innocents?

And to you, the abortion doctor who was convicted last month of removing fetuses and severing their spines to kills them, was that acceptable behaviour to you? If not, what "magic" happens that makes killing babies in the womb okay, but killing them outside the womb not?



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 09:14 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Charles,

Seeing how the Catholic Church, from it's inception, has declared themselves to be the representation of Jesus, the Pope, the Vicar of Christ, I don't see how they can justify ex-communicating a member, sending that member directly to hell, according to their own doctrine. Jesus said to forgive your brother, "yea, 70 times."

The "Church" doesn't see itself as some club that gets to pick and choose it's membership. It is the body of Christ and accepts all sinners. It's not suppose to be deciding a persons eternal fate by throwing them out of "God's only true church" based on Papal doctrine, and not on the words of Jesus himself.





The Catholic Church needs to embrace change.
How do you have any business prescribing that? Do you know the Church? Love the Church? Want it to be a strong beacon of faith? Or do you simply want it to embrace your positions? Positions it has already rejected at the highest levels.


Change is what members of the church themselves are asking for.


In recent years, as the Vatican dug into conservative positions on matters of sexual morality, a renewed embrace of the church’s social mission seemed about as much as reformist Catholics could hope for. Yet a deeper change seems to be at work. In a recent homily at a Mass attended by Vatican employees and a few guests, Francis showed a willingness to reconcile with those outside the faith — in a way that is unprecedented in recent Catholic theology.

Francis’s immediate predecessors regularly derided what they called the “culture of death” in speaking of those outside the faith. But in a homily in the chapel at St. Martha’s, this pope lifted up what he called the “culture of encounter.” In contrast to the habitual denigration of those of other religions — a mark of Catholic teaching for a generation — the Argentine pope praised every human being as a source of goodness. “Even the atheists?” he asked, giving voice in the homily to his inevitable critics. “ ‘But Father, this is not Catholic! [Atheists] cannot do good!’ ”

In a remarkable homily, Pope Francis hints at change in church’s thinking



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
 


Abortion wasn't illegal in Rome, at the time of the life of Jesus. It wasn't until 200 years later that Christianity ruled on abortion law.

Once again, that isn't what I asked you -- Jesus was not Roman, nor was he fond of Pharisaic Law.


I did answer you question. The fact that abortion was legal in Rome, which was occupying the territory in which Jesus resided, indicates that he wasn't ignorant to the practice of abortion. He omitted any talk of abortion from his teachings. That tells me he didn't have a problem with it.


Where does he teach the murder of innocents?


What makes you think that Jesus thought the unborn were innocent?


John 9
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?



Matthew 24:19
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!



And to you, the abortion doctor who was convicted last month of removing fetuses and severing their spines to kills them, was that acceptable behaviour to you? If not, what "magic" happens that makes killing babies in the womb okay, but killing them outside the womb not?


What that doctor did was illegal. Late term abortions are only given in cases where the fetus is so unhealthy that it's survival is compromised and it's life would be more painful than it's death, or when the life of the mother is at risk. However, what happens to babies that survive late term abortions is awful. They are left to die. Euthanasia is something that needs more looking into.


edit on 24-6-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 09:30 PM
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reply to post by windword
 




Did Nancy Pelosi get an abortion? Is she urging women to get abortions? No. She is defending their right to choose. She is protecting their right to safe, affordable and accessible feminine health care, including birth control and abortion. You don't think that politicians should force their religious beliefs on their constituents do you?


I am not talking about Nancy Pelosi's private life. That is her business. However, we are talking about Nancy Pelosi the public figure. In that regard, if she is going to profess her faith publically as is the case on numerous occasions? Then, her stance on abortion puts her between a rock and a hard place in regards to her religious affiliation. That is as plain as day. I realize it is a slippery slope. However, her remarks about the topic are blatant contradictions to the faith. That is what the priests are pointing out. It is what it is. I do not think politicians should force religious beliefs down anyones' throat. Perish the thought!




The Catholic Church also considers the Pill, the IUD, NORPLANT, the Morning After Pill and any hormonal birth control to cause abortion. Pew Research claims that 98% of sexually active Catholic women use artificial contraception. 27% of women who had abortions claimed to be Catholic. Talk about hypocrites.


Thank you for the statistics. Yes, I am aware that The Catholic Church forbids contraception as well as birth control. I also realize that Catholic women use artificial birth control. All the same, some probably have abortions. Yes, their actions would make them hyprocrites. How does that apply to Nancy Pelosi or the teachings of the Catholic Church?



Why should she recuse herself? Because you think she's a hypocrite?


In my humble opinion, I think she should recuse herself. We are still allowed to voice our opinions. Aren't we? She claims to be a Catholic, but her positions, remarks, and rhetoric says something else. Thanks for your comments!





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